Why does racism have to be intentional before it matters? Very few people are going to admit that their racism is born out of malice, they are going to claim that those people are just worse for some reason.chiggerwood said:
Poll: Is the Washington Redskins team name racist?
- Thread starter tippy2k2
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I Don't care. Like at all.
BUT..... since I've fuck all else to do, here's a real answer.
Yeah, the name is racist. 'Redskin' is a racist slur like '******' or '*****' or 'Cracker'.
Should they change it? That's up to the owners of the team to decide really. This isn't the NFL can force them to do, I don't think. It's not like that guy in the NBA who owns/owned a team and said something racist, this is a case of the owner buying the team with the name already there, so different rules apply if there ever are any for this situation.
It'd be a good gimmick to draw attention to them selves for a reformation year though.
Like I said, though, I don't really care one way or another, a different name isn't gonna stop the team from sucking, It's not gonna stop the Indians from bitching about some 'problem' they have that's pretty much self inflected at this point, but still blame 'the white man' for. So meh to the whole thing I say.
BUT..... since I've fuck all else to do, here's a real answer.
Yeah, the name is racist. 'Redskin' is a racist slur like '******' or '*****' or 'Cracker'.
Should they change it? That's up to the owners of the team to decide really. This isn't the NFL can force them to do, I don't think. It's not like that guy in the NBA who owns/owned a team and said something racist, this is a case of the owner buying the team with the name already there, so different rules apply if there ever are any for this situation.
It'd be a good gimmick to draw attention to them selves for a reformation year though.
Like I said, though, I don't really care one way or another, a different name isn't gonna stop the team from sucking, It's not gonna stop the Indians from bitching about some 'problem' they have that's pretty much self inflected at this point, but still blame 'the white man' for. So meh to the whole thing I say.
Oh sure, the person I was quoting was talking about "the whole issue" of racism, getting a bit off topic.kenu12345 said:
Though, when there are constant calls from Native American groups to change it on the basis that it is racist, and these are always rejected, one has to wonder.
It seems, from the anecdotal evidence here, that Native Americans in general don't give a shit. Or at least, it's very, very split.
If that's the case, combined with the fact that no one uses the term redskin anymore anyway, there's hardly an argument that it's "wrong," let alone should be changed.
While not perfect, a fair analogy is the New York Yankees. Yankee was a British slur against colonists.
If that's the case, combined with the fact that no one uses the term redskin anymore anyway, there's hardly an argument that it's "wrong," let alone should be changed.
While not perfect, a fair analogy is the New York Yankees. Yankee was a British slur against colonists.
I think the name is inappropriate for such a public and well known entity, but it's up to the Native American Community as to whether the term is offensive or not, what they think is what is correct regardless of what us or others think. We have situations where minorities have turned words used to insult them as a form of togetherness and kinship.
I haven't actually heard the term 'Redskin' been used offensively ever, granted I don't live in America so I could be completely wrong. Is suppose a better comparison would be 'Cleveland Darkies' instead of 'Cleveland Niggers', a term used in the past to insult but isn't used much today.
Also I don't mean to be a Strawman here but I wouldn't be fair on the team to force them to change their name, when the brand of sweets called 'Redskins' can keep that brand name.
I haven't actually heard the term 'Redskin' been used offensively ever, granted I don't live in America so I could be completely wrong. Is suppose a better comparison would be 'Cleveland Darkies' instead of 'Cleveland Niggers', a term used in the past to insult but isn't used much today.
Also I don't mean to be a Strawman here but I wouldn't be fair on the team to force them to change their name, when the brand of sweets called 'Redskins' can keep that brand name.
As the term redskin is a slur, yes it absolutely should be changed. As should the mascot. And while we're at it, how about we change the mascot for the Blackhawks (NHL)? I know A LOT of people who are either half, fully, or fall somewhere between those two of being native american who are offended by the name.
In fact, there is this great post going around on tumblr about the WHY of it (sourced and everything even)
For those who are curious about it, and don't like tumblr for whatever reason, here is the quote including all the sources
In fact, there is this great post going around on tumblr about the WHY of it (sourced and everything even)
For those who are curious about it, and don't like tumblr for whatever reason, here is the quote including all the sources
"Indigenous people continued to resist by burning settlements and killing and capturing settlers. As an incentive to recruit fighters, colonial authorities introduced a program of scalp hunting that became a permanent and long-lasting element of settler warfare against Indigenous nations. During the Pequot War, Connecticut and Massachusetts colonial officials had offered bounties initially for the heads of murdered Indigenous people and later for only their scalps, which were more portable in large numbers. But scalp hunting became routine only in the mid-1670?s, following an incident on the northern frontier of the Massachusetts colony. The practice began in earnest in 1697 when settler Hannah Dustin, having murdered ten of her Abenaki captors in a nighttime escape, presented their ten scalps to the Massachusetts General Assembly and was rewarded with bounties for two men, two women, and six children.
Dustin soon became a folk hero among New England settlers. Scalp hunting became a lucrative commercial practice. The settler authorities had hit upon a way to encourage settlers to take off on their own or with a few others to gather scalps, at random, for the reward money. "In the process," John Grenier points out, "they established the large-scale privatization of war within American frontier communities." Although the colonial government in time raised the bounty for adult male scalps, lowered that for adult females, and eliminated that for Indigenous children under ten, the age and gender of victims were not easily distinguished by their scalps nor checked carefully. What is more, the scalp hunter could take the children captive and sell them into slavery. These practices erased any remaining distinction between Indigenous combatants and noncombatants and introduced a market for Indigenous slaves. Bounties for Indigenous scalps were honored even in absence of war. Scalps and Indigenous children became means of exchange, currency, and this development may even have created a black market. Scalp hunting was not only a profitable privatized enterprise but also a means to eradicate or subjugate the Indigenous population of the Anglo-American Atlantic seaboard. The settlers gave a name to the mutilated and bloody corpses they left in the wake of scalp-hunts: redskins.
This way of war, forged in the first century of colonization - destroying Indigenous villages and fields, killing civilians, ranging and scalp hunting - became the basis for the wars against the Indigenous across the continent into the late nineteenth century."
-The Origin of the word "Redskins" (source)
This is an excerpt from An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. The book will be released later this month (September 2014).
Dustin soon became a folk hero among New England settlers. Scalp hunting became a lucrative commercial practice. The settler authorities had hit upon a way to encourage settlers to take off on their own or with a few others to gather scalps, at random, for the reward money. "In the process," John Grenier points out, "they established the large-scale privatization of war within American frontier communities." Although the colonial government in time raised the bounty for adult male scalps, lowered that for adult females, and eliminated that for Indigenous children under ten, the age and gender of victims were not easily distinguished by their scalps nor checked carefully. What is more, the scalp hunter could take the children captive and sell them into slavery. These practices erased any remaining distinction between Indigenous combatants and noncombatants and introduced a market for Indigenous slaves. Bounties for Indigenous scalps were honored even in absence of war. Scalps and Indigenous children became means of exchange, currency, and this development may even have created a black market. Scalp hunting was not only a profitable privatized enterprise but also a means to eradicate or subjugate the Indigenous population of the Anglo-American Atlantic seaboard. The settlers gave a name to the mutilated and bloody corpses they left in the wake of scalp-hunts: redskins.
This way of war, forged in the first century of colonization - destroying Indigenous villages and fields, killing civilians, ranging and scalp hunting - became the basis for the wars against the Indigenous across the continent into the late nineteenth century."
-The Origin of the word "Redskins" (source)
This is an excerpt from An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. The book will be released later this month (September 2014).
Because I don't believe that there is such a thing as unintentional racism. There's hate (which is racism), which is based in fear. Then there's ignorance which is based in being a dumbass. The hateful person will do actual harm. They will marginalize groups, cause separation between peoples, cause unrest, perform violent acts, as well as try to, and sometimes succeed, in oppressing another people. The ignorant person's offense, on the other hand, is just a feeling of insult, and whether or not you feel insulted is up to you. as Marcus Aurelius said, "Take away thy opinion, and then there is taken away the complaint, "I have been harmed." Take away the complaint, "I have been harmed," and the harm is taken away."thaluikhain said:
People who are offended by the name should probably grow a thicker skin, freedom of expression trumps freedom from ever being offended by anything. But the team should still change the name just to not be dicks. Seriously, just do it, it's a frickin name, who cares?
I think most Redskins fans who support the name honestly believe it's honorific and not a racial slur and the main reason they don't change it is because of tradition. I think the owners don't want to change it because of brand-recognition and money.
Is it a slur? I don't think so but apparently it is... so I guess it is then.
The better question that no-one is asking is: WHAT IS A NAME NATIVE AMERICANS WOULD BE PROUD OF?
If the answer is something that sounds cool change it to that. My first thought was Chiefs but that's already taken... Warriors maybe? Anyone here Native American that can think of a name that relates to heir heritage which commands strength and respect which could be used honorifically?
Is it a slur? I don't think so but apparently it is... so I guess it is then.
The better question that no-one is asking is: WHAT IS A NAME NATIVE AMERICANS WOULD BE PROUD OF?
If the answer is something that sounds cool change it to that. My first thought was Chiefs but that's already taken... Warriors maybe? Anyone here Native American that can think of a name that relates to heir heritage which commands strength and respect which could be used honorifically?
I see no reason why someone can't do that out of ignorance. Lots of problems are caused by people who didn't know, or didn't care, that they were causing a problem.chiggerwood said:
Just as precursor, when I gleefully shouted "I DON'T FUCKING CARE!" (and it was meant to be taken as a gleeful statement)I was not speaking to the entire subject of racism, just the name of a football team, this is important to remember. Now on with the show.thaluikhain said:
If a person performs those actions out of ignorance,then there was already an underlying hate that allowed the ignorance to remain. The only example I can think of off the top of my head would be the concentration camps of the Third Reich. Most German citizens didn't know the extent of what was going on, but they still hated the Jews enough to turn a blind eye to the preceding events that led to the concentration camps and the atrocities that took place. The same goes for what you call not caring, but is more aptly described as apathy. Apathy itself is a byproduct of hate, and possibly the greatest expression of hatred. It's not a product of ignorance. I can see where you might think that ignorance can lead to hate though. Example:
Person#1: I know nothing about race X.
Person#2: They're dirty people who will rape you!
Person#1: I better not go near them!
However in order for person#1 to believe such a thing, the fear of race X already had to be there. That's the tricky thing about hate; it's anger covering up a fear, and getting someone to admit that they're afraid is among the hardest things to do. A truly ignorant person on the other hand will just act like your general run of the mill "special" person about a race. The best example of this I can think of right now is weeaboos and Redskin fans.
Except that the word ****** has a precedence to it not being offensive. In fact ****** wasn't really a term for offense until around the mid 1860's when it started being used by southerners to insult people of African descent. Before then it was primarily frontier speak, being spelled niggur, and meaning "guy". Anybody could be a niggur and they frequently were, even in self reference. It would be common to hear a phrase like "Me? Nah I ain't no farmer, this niggur here is a minin' man." So you could use the argument that when you call your team the "Brooklyn Niggers" you're using the word ****** in the term of guy and that it's no more offensive than calling your team, "Some Brooklyn Guys".Paradox SuXcess said:
Fair enough, looks like we are using slightly different definitions of ignorance there.chiggerwood said:
Yeah, all my definitions are specialized. My mom used to be racist in her youth, I had a brother and sister that was part of a hate group, I knew a pastor that used to be part of a NEO-Nazi biker gang, and I grew up around a lot of white, black, and mexican power groups. Besides learning the lie of race at an early age, (and the ability to get a massive, raging hate boner when someone say race X can't be racist), I learned a lot about people and what causes racism, so I define my terms with a pinpoint to look at specific problems.thaluikhain said:
No, really guys. Redskin is a slur. It doesn't get any clearer when it was a term used in documents promoting the extermination of a people.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/14/208627/tribes-want-congress-to-ban-redskins.html
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/14/208627/tribes-want-congress-to-ban-redskins.html
Ok the Redskin name is two fold for me because I will admit the name is just terrible both as a outdated racial slur and as a general team name. When I hear Redskin it is like watching Gran Torino and laughing at all the outdated racial slurs that are used.
I mean with teams like Cowboys, Titans, Jaguars, DA BURZ, Redskins just sounds dumb to me.
I can see the problem some Native Americans care and some don't and team names get changed a lot so I guess it will be up to public opinion. I think a way better name can be found and they can still keep the logo with some alterations but that is just my opinion.
I mean with teams like Cowboys, Titans, Jaguars, DA BURZ, Redskins just sounds dumb to me.
I can see the problem some Native Americans care and some don't and team names get changed a lot so I guess it will be up to public opinion. I think a way better name can be found and they can still keep the logo with some alterations but that is just my opinion.