If the woman in question is being gentlemanly, then by all means, no. Just remember to gently clink glasses whilst discussing how else you're exploiting the poor, else you might damage the crystal.
Of course, if you're just prone to being selfless around an otherwise nice girl, and are trying to be sweet, that's occasionally fine. Just remember to not imply that she's incapable of doing it herself, but that you consider it nothing more than a selfless courtesy that you're doing it, for no other reason that because you feel so inclined. Or that you want to make jokes about how things have changed, and do it ironically. That's fun too.
I think a big part of the problem and possibly any confusion here is that 'sexism' implies some negative connotation. The word, taken literally, does not inherently mean that sexism is "good" or "bad", it simply means different treatment based on sex. However, when people are called "sexist", it tends to be said in either a negative or offended way.
Thus, the question. Is being a 'gentleman' and acting 'chivalrous' sexist? Yes. Does this mean it's a bad thing? Not always, no. I personally feel that women, especially those you are close to or trying to court, deserve somewhat special treatment when it comes to manners. Naturally, and by the very definition of the word, this is sexist.
But, yeah, I don't see any problem with it. Unless they tell you they have a problem with it. Then that's usually the time to stop.
Precisely. Feminists claim that they want to be treated just like men. Therefore, is it not going DIRECTLY against their wishes to try and help and makes things more comfortable for them in a way you WOULDN'T for a man?
It is sexist....but is it sexism that is actually a problem? I dont think it really matters that much whether women are getting their chairs pulled out for them or not.
This seems to think it kind of is. And you know, the sheer hostility I've seen mentioned at the idea that someone might reject said help kind of has a nasty implication to it I think.
Ehh....that article seemed to be kinda making broad sweeping statements. I get that the whole idea of women being lesser and needing help is offensive though.
I dont know about getting hostile, it seems silly to get mad at someone to reject an offer of help.
I dont tend to think that a woman has to have her chair pulled out and the door opened for her, and if she wants to lift something she can go ahead. But I will throw out random acts of help lifting if I see a woman struggling with something heavy. I dont fall over myself to do it like some sort of ritual though, and if im really comfortable in a seat I might just be like "Eh fuck it shes right...
Sometimes I do hold doors open for people, both male and female. Because ive been taught its rude to let a door slam in somebodies face. Ive never done the chair thing before, except for my grandmother.
Well, you know its like sexist in terms of "based on sex" but its not necessarily bad. If you're doing it to be nice than fine, but its not so nice if you're doing it for its original reason, being to compensate for not letting her vote.
Definition of sexism (according to dictionary.com) is "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex."
Definition of discriminate is "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality."
You are performing an action based on sex which you would not do for men, therefore it is sexist.
Whoa, I'm really behind on this and kinda necro'd an old argument within the thread. Sorry guys, didn't notice the page counts.
Personally, i'm polite in this way to women moreso than men solely because women for the most part that i've come across, are more accepting, gracious and polite about it in return. I did a bit of counting recently while holding the door open for people in public places.
All but one woman i held the door for thanked me verbally and smiled, the last one smiled and nodded.
The same with people i judged to be over 60, most of them smiled and thanked me. One grumpy old man glared at me.
Men... most disregarded my presense, some glared at me, and only one thanked me verbally while 2 acknowledged me with a nod.
Now... that's why to me it isn't sexist to do extra things for women. They actually appreciate it and are the nicer of the two sexes, so they deserve to be treated better than men because in general, women treat other people better than men do.
Just my two cents there.
Figures by the way were in the vicinity of 20 of each demographic, but not exactly. i lost count.
Decent people do this for people of either gender. If you do this especially for women, but not for men, you're an impolite douchebag. This is probably why you get called sexist.
Being nice to other people: Good.
Expecting brownie points for doing so: Shitty person.
Also, a reason why a lot of women don't like behavior like this too much:
A lot of the guys that do the door holding only for women seem to expect me to like them, talk to them, go on a coffee with them. They just held open a door, and yet don't understand that I as a woman have no obligation to "reward" them for it. That is what makes the "gentlemanly" thing so disliked. If you don't do this, blame the stupid men that do it every day.
Sometimes I do hold doors open for people, both male and female. Because ive been taught its rude to let a door slam in somebodies face.
It is sexist....but is it sexism that is actually a problem? I dont think it really matters that much whether women are getting their chairs pulled out for them or not.
This seems to think it kind of is. And you know, the sheer hostility I've seen mentioned at the idea that someone might reject said help kind of has a nasty implication to it I think.
Ehh....that article seemed to be kinda making broad sweeping statements. I get that the whole idea of women being lesser and needing help is offensive.
"People who endorse benevolent sexism feel positively toward women, but only when women conform to highly traditional ideals about "how women should be." "
I frequently choose to hold doors, assist people with movement-impairment to go up or down steps and stairs, and generally try to be a decent human being, regardless of the gender of the person I'm trying to be polite to. That said, it is far more frequent that I am accosted by a female for that behaviour. I have to assume that it's because modern feminism defines females as completely and utterly capable in all situations as a male, regardless of the circumstances of the situation.
Do I feel I'm justified in helping an individual by offering to do a physically demanding task that I am, by dint of my physical fitness and career, better suited to perform?
Yes.
I am a physically fit male that works in a heavy-labour job, and I don't feel that it's offensive to offer to assist ANY individual, regardless of gender, with a physically demanding task, especially if the task in question is one I am physically equipped to perform more effectively (or safely) because I am a stronger human specimen.
If I offer to perform a physical task for a woman, I'm offering because I feel it's a task that, under the circumstances, I can undertake with greater safety or with a greater chance of success, or both; I would also feel the EXACT SAME WAY if I offered to complete the task for a man.
If I walk down the street, and see a man and a woman on opposite sides of the street trying to lift EXACTLY IDENTICAL objects into a typical garbage dumpster, and ONE of them is struggling to do so, and appears to be in danger of slipping or dropping the object in a way that would harm them, I would offer to assist them.
If both of them were struggling equally, I would ask them to BOTH wait while I assisted them, in turn, starting with whichever I'm closest to, ideally.
In my own (personal) experience, I have frequently found that women are more often cold than men, and therefore, by careful, logical examination, will more frequently require me to offer them my coat. If I'm warm enough that I don't need my coat, and someone I know is obviously experiencing discomfort because of the ambient environmental temperature, I will offer them the loan of it for whatever period is reasonable, regardless of their gender.
However, if:
I'm outside with a friend of each gender
the level of friendship with both is equal
both are cold
neither one has a coat
I have a coat and am not adversely affected by offering it to one of them
am I a sexist for choosing to offer the coat first to the woman, then to the man?
I'm sure that some feminists would try to spin the situation that way, but I was raised to behave that way, and I don't believe that to be "wrong", and I never will consider it "wrong", regardless of any contrary opinion. I cannot consider that behaviour sexist, nor will I accept accusations that I am being sexist in those circumstances, when I'm behaving in the polite manner I was raised to behave.
Well in this case, you reasonably justified pretty much all you do. You help people if it seems like they need help and it seems to be quite regardless of gender in most cases. So it isn't even discrimination at all in those, you treat them the exact same way, given the same situation.
As for choosing the girl over the guy with the coat thing... Eh you have to pick someone so I guess that seems fine. I mean... well extrapolating using gender as a tie breaker to other scenarios I'd have a problem with it, but it's harmless as a tie breaker there. Maybe slightly sexist since, well, by definition you are choosing one person over another on the basis of their gender.
But I'd note... the way you were raised isn't really a valid point on whether something is sexist or not. You can be raised in a sexist manner or have sexist beliefs about what constitutes politeness. Not an accusation against you, but I'm just saying that argument isn't really a valid one.
I see how you advocate a world free of sexism, and that's great, but here's something to consider for this example with the coat: women have less muscle mass and a higher body surface to volume ratio, which makes them less efficient in retaining heat than men. Confronted with a choice to give a coat to a man or a woman and with no other information to go on, would you not offer your coat to the woman first due to the assumption that, based on biology, she is probably colder? Or is it sexist that you did not offer it to the man as well despite the fact that, on average, the woman would have more use for the coat? A lot of social behaviors concerning gender are decidedly uneven, but for all the ways that men and women are the same, they will always be different in many ways biologically, and some social behaviors might reflect this truth more than they reflect gender bias.
I think it probably is. I don't think that's bad though.
The amount of time I spend reading about the physiological differences between men and women it's hard to, in my mind, see men and women as the same. We're fundamentally different in many ways and thus I treat women slightly differently.
That said, I've been called sexist and chauvinistic enough to realise I probably am not the best judge of what's sexist.
Women are generally smaller, have less muscle mass, less bone density, are generally weaker.
Thus, I don't think it's right to hit a woman.
Obvious exceptions apply to women who are capable of taking a hit (I've only ever met 3 or 4 personally, they're all fighters recreationally, I never hit any of them personally but I'd hazard a guess they could handle it).
I also wouldn't hit a child or (in general) a man much smaller than me, so it's sort of levelled out.
Women and men have other significant endocrine differences as well but the affect on emotional state is merely anecdotal. There's plenty of teary blokes, and stiff jawed women.
I'll freely admit that my views are not based in science, they're based on sexist pre-conceptions which I don't think are 'wrong' just unpopular. I also don't tend to wave them about in peoples faces unless I'm asked (like now) but the significant differences between men and women don't really make me question my views, kind of the opposite.
That said, I wouldn't assume a woman can't park a car, or can't read a map. They're down to my opinion of the individual. I'm not completely hopeless.
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