Poll: Is treating women in Gentlemanly way Sexist?

[tensorproduct]

*snippity*

I have to respect your tenacity for responding on this topic for 19 pages. I haven't read all of the pages, but from what I've seen I agree with most of what you've been saying.

Although, I do have a question. Let's say that a man opened the door for a woman not intending to be respectful, but just so he would seem like a nice guy, improving the chance that she'd want to sleep with him. Would that be sexist?

Bear in mind I was just using that scenario as an example, I in no way think that most guys open doors with the intention of getting sex out of it. Nor do I think that it's all that effective of a method to do so. Giving them your coat however...

Nope. It would seem just like another form of flirting. The basis of it is not that the person thinks genders should be treated differently, it's that the person in question is attracted to the other and acting on that. Think I mentioned that before some pages ago. Didn't to that other dude because he's just being ridiculous by saying *any* differences as that's very unlikely to be the case, especially in regards to all women. Seemed like an ad hoc excuse.

Though after 19 pages I'm starting to cringe whenever I see a new bit of mail in my inbox. -__-

i'm not sure, trying to emotionally manipulate women into having sex with you feels pretty sexist to me.

Is it? It just seems like a rather unsavory thing to do. It's kind of based on what someone finds attractive and not just their particular gender, isn't it?

I agree that this behaviour isn't inherently sexist. It might be manipulative (but it might not), and it sure as hell isn't gentlemanly, but extending this behaviour not to all women but only to those in whom you have an sexual/romantic interest means that it's not an assumption about women as a gender.

 

[Snowblindblitz]

I feel like sexism and the biological imperative to treat potential mates in a way that encourages mating are not the same.

When animals show similar traits, are they sexist? No, they are simply applying basic instinct to try to win a mate.

Treating genders differently is appropriate since genders are different. You can treat someone in a humane fashion while also acknowledging they are a lady or gentlemen. I tend to hold doors open for anyone, but have a higher frequency to do so for ladies. If anything, manners are a safe opener to a new person, male or female, and from there you should develop how you treat them base on their individuality.

 

[Enverex]

Yes, but if you don't do it you're seen as rude because it's 'expected' of you if you're polite.

 

[DustyLion]

It a woman really wants to get into a sexism fight over me holding the door I'll just shut it in her face.

 

[Furrama]

You mean going out of your way to be polite, however society dictates it? No. Not for either gender.

 

[WhyWasThat]

I just hold doors open for people if they're nearby.
It's common courtesy, gender doesn't really come into it.
I'm a guy, btw.

 

[Caverat]

I don't treat everyone the same. People and groups aren't the same. Seniors are more likely to require assistance, and I wouldn't offer bacon to my Muslim and Jewish friends.

But, *shock*, that is discrimination to offer bacon to my other friends when we are having a BBQ, but not offer it to the practicing Muslims or Jews that are present!!!!!!!1111111ONE

Now to the "treating women differently = bad man"

Example: Rough housing. Say a man wrestles male friends, but wouldn't wrestle female friends because they are women, and on average men are 40-50% stronger, with more durable bones (As well as a thicker skull)/tendons/ligaments/skin, and are typically capable of recovering from physical injuries sooner than women (Although women have a higher resistance and shorter recovery time for infectious diseases.)

No, I am not implying anything about women. These are just some of the biological differences that in-arguably exist between the males and females of our species. Hell, there are some pretty sweet advantages to being a woman, women have a smaller body mass and the shorter distance between their heart and brain makes it easier for them to counteract G-forces, and the differences in the brain are better suited for multi-tasking. Right there you have a biological edge for a fighter pilot.

Acknowledging differences isn't bad, and neither is acting differently based on things that actually exist.

Yes, in the case of holding a door for women and not for men ( I agree with the hold the door for everyone, you dick), that is an antiquated social behaviour born in a time when women were typically treated poorly. There is no need for it.

My chief complaint is the blanket statement that not treating everyone exactly the same as everyone else is somehow negative. It comes down to personal choice here, really, you can choose to treat everyone as if they are identical cardboard cutouts, or you can acknowledge reality, adapt, be smart.

Treating genders differently is appropriate since genders are different.

Do you apply that logic to races too?

There are medical conditions that are much more prominent and more serious in different ethnicities. Likewise, there are medical treatments/drugs that are typically less effective on different groups. Acknowledging those actual physiological differences and associated risks isn't bad, and ignoring them outright is moronic.

 

[Kasawd]

Actions are only made sexist, in my opinion, when the drive behind them lay in the proper sexist sentiment. If you open a door with the intent to be polite, it's simply that, but, if you open the door "Because I am stronger" or "She may make sweet baby-making-love to me", then it becomes so.

Even then, the latter is just hopeful/hilarious/desperate than anything else.

 

[Zayle79]

It's not entirely a social construct. This sort of thing is at least partially natural, I think. Because women are, on the whole, more submissive and reserved than men, and men more dominant, men consequently tend to think of them as frail and in need of more help than men. I think sexism is a very natural thing, and not one that comes from society alone.

I'm not endorsing it, however. It's totally natural to punch someone you find extremely annoying, but you shouldn't do that. Slavery came pretty naturally; equality itself is pretty unnatural. Also unnatural? Sitting in a chair in the freaking sky, zipping across the mainland US in a few hours. The more civilized we become, the further we stray from our natural instincts, and that's not a bad thing at all.

 

[Lyri]

Not unless you have a sense of entitlement (beyond maybe getting a "thank you," that is) about it.

That said, I'd argue that she should say "thank you" if you do that.

<-- as likely as not to be the one holding the door.

The fact that people would expect anything beyond a thanks is hilarious, mind you it could be worse with a good ol' slap on the ass as you cross the threshold.

I don't see how being polite is sexist

You don't see how a specific standard of politeness for women that differs from that for men is sexist?

Nobody mentioned other people but you here buddy, this was your third post in the thread. You applied your own reasoning from your first post to this gents post to suit your own argument.
Thus dragging people into a debate with reasoning you forced upon the issue.

You're correct in your point but nobody mentioned specifically holding door open for women and making guys get it themselves.
Ball is in your court, champ.

I've never been called out for holding a door open for a women, I don't do it all the time and I don't hold it open even when there's that awkward distance that makes you stand around and wait for someone to pass.
I have held it open and had people just take advantage of someone standing around and just keep going through in an endless line of mouth breathers (seriously folks, offer to take the door off the guy holding it once in a while).
All in all though if someone wanted to hold the door open for me because I have a dick swinging between my legs then whatever, that's their choice.
"Oh no, you're objectifying me and endangering my independence as a woman for holding the door open for me"
If you literally think that you should probably have the door closed on you.

 

[Lyri]

In human conversations there tend to be these things called implications and context. If you look at those it's pretty obvious that he was implicitly talking about doing it just for women. Or if you want it more explicitly if you just check his post history the posts leading up to this one make it more clear.

So pretty clear there were pretty obvious implications you missed.

I'm going off the OP, there is nothing to say he doesn't do it for men, which is my point entirely.
He's talking about his interaction with women and wants to know why his actions are viewed as sexist, you can read your implications if you want from what he didn't say but it also works the other way.

If I was to create a thread saying "Why are all FPS players assholes" does that imply that I find all other gamers pleasant?
Somewhat, but you don't make the assumption. You're not wrong, you're just running a mile with an inch.

Besides this whole thread is fucking ridiculous, people have gotten far too whiney with this shit. If a lady was to buy you some food do you turn to her and say "Excuse me madam but your current purchase has offended my hunter gatherer sensibilities as a male"?
No, you say "Thank's that was really nice of you".

Your rights and empowerment as a person are not being trodden on by someone holding the door open for you, it's a simple gesture of kindness.

 

[Lyri]

You're going off the OP making the absurd decision to avoid the obvious implications, which are backed by the fact that his post history shows the conversation that spawned it was about women specifically. It's quite absurd to go off what he says exactly when there's an obvious implication.

I already said I didn't read his post history, I'm not really concerned with it. I didn't ignore anything but you did, I said you're correct but you're just taking it and running far too afield than it needs to be.

Mine are backed by the fact he said it was a few people here and his conversation right before this thread had someone who clearly took issue with the fact he was treating men and women differently. You're pretty clearly wrong here.

Looks like I will have to go read his post history then *shrugs*.

No, but if there were only 2 kinds of video games, FPS and something else, it sure would imply it.

That's where the problem stems, I shouldn't have to explain everything to the Nth degree just so you can't take what was never said and run miles with it.

No, actually if you even paid attention to Brass Buttons who he was in the conversation that sparked this thread and who then showed up in this thread and said the same thing I'm saying about the previous conversation, it would be blindingly obvious...

It would have been vaguely decent of you to at least quote something, clearly I haven't read the previous thread. I didn't even realise there was another thread to begin with, quit the antagonism quite frankly.

Hunter gatherer sensibilites would be a stupid excuse. Sexism isn't. But anyway, if you want to whine about scenarios no one was talking about, no one actually said anything about rejecting such behavior except the people defending it. Note how the OP said a few people on HERE, not some random women getting mad at him for opening a door or something.

It's the exact same thing, it's people taking liberties with intent and running with the implications.
If I open the door do I imply that the woman walking through it is somehow in need of it? Couldn't he turn around just as easily when she yells at him that he can't open the door for her because he's a man?
Isn't that sexism too?
Never ending circle of bullshit quite frankly.

I was talking to a friend about this, the world has gone utterly fucking mad about stuff like this. It used to be that when your friends got sick or needed help you could take a meal around to their house and give them a night off from cooking for themselves, just because you're a friendly neighbour.
These days such actions would be frowned upon and helping one another and community is seen as strange or somehow impeding upon others.
Some guy is holding a door open for you, what do you care why he held it open? The god damn door is open and he's being harmlessly old fashioned about it. The only person that has a problem with it is the one that makes it up.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I was talking to a friend about this, the world has gone utterly fucking mad about stuff like this. It used to be that when your friends got sick or needed help you could take a meal around to their house and give them a night off from cooking for themselves, just because you're a friendly neighbour.
These days such actions would be frowned upon and helping one another and community is seen as strange or somehow impeding upon others.
Some guy is holding a door open for you, what do you care why he held it open? The god damn door is open and he's being harmlessly old fashioned about it. The only person that has a problem with it is the one that makes it up.

No one is talking about whether or not it's bad or harmful to hold open the door for someone. The discussion is about whether or not it's sexist to only hold it open for only women. Although apparently this is up to debate, the OP looked like it implied this, and frankly there would be no discussion value in it if they were opening doors for both genders.

Personally I wouldn't make a fuss about it if I saw someone do that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's sexist. That being said I doubt anyone in this thread is planning on championing the cause of equal opportunity door holding.