Poll: Is Wal-Mart evil?
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We don't have Wal-Mart in this country but we do have ASDA which is part of that incestuous and greedy family as the signs are oh so keen to point out. I think that in America, you have the kind of system in which Wal-Mart is almost a good thing. For example, small shops can't offer health care for the masses where as Wal-Mart can. However, over here in the UK, small shops don't need to offer health care because it's free. This means that these small businesses are put out for no reason other than that of pleasing the fat-cats who own the large corporations. In a time of recession such as this, people want these cheap shops like Tesco and ASDA to come to town so that they provide jobs and slightly cheaper goods. What they don't realise is that more jobs will be lost than provided as a result. Therefore, in the UK, Wal-Mart is evil.
Of course, since you seem to be Soviet Trogdor, there might be some bias methinks.Chech said:
Although yes, I agree, being from the UK, I am glad I don't need to factor in free healthcare as a decision for working at a company I probably wouldn't like. I'm not too fond of the pro-business, "let's make loads of money and do nothing else with our lives" maxim. It's boring, and people like that, the OP included, make me want to do the whole Raiders of the Lost Ark melting shebang, but that's probably because it reminds me of New Right economics, which reminds me of Thatcher.
And I don't like Thatcher.
What? Capitalism and the whole "pro-business" and "pro-private enterprise" failing at something? Why I can't believe it! What you speak of must be wrong and downright blasphemous! Burn the heretic who claims that capitalism can fail at anything!caprisun said:
(... yes, I am in fact being a tad wee bit sarcastic now
)
Ha nice. Sadly if brought up in the US that would pretty much be the exact responce from the media and both parties...pretty depressingHousebroken Lunatic said:What? Capitalism and the whole "pro-business" and "pro-private enterprise" failing at something? Why I can't believe it! What you speak of must be wrong and downright blasphemous! Burn the heretic who claims that capitalism can fail at anything!caprisun said:
(... yes, I am in fact being a tad wee bit sarcastic now
<---Guy who works at a Wal-mart here. College gets damn expensive, you know? We've had Local #210 come around quite a few times (I live in Buffalo, NY...Local #210 is one of the bigger unions around here), and as long as they don't prevent people from entering the store or the property itself, we'll let them say whatever they want. Also, if an employee wishes to join the union, they can. The management and corporate will fight if the union is trying to get the entire store to unionize (some weird legal there), but if an individual wishes to join a union, there's nothing that they can do to stop them.Housebroken Lunatic said:
More amusing, however, is the fact that we get protesters that stop by every now and then. They use the whole "Wal-Mart is evil" argument, and typically stand around for a few hours just off the property. Then, when they're done, they come in and shop anyhow, even though there are plenty of other stores with the same goods nearby. Laziness keeps us in business.
Yeah, well the old "them commie-ways are evil and the commies should be hated"-argument is a rather well rooted relic in the american society it seems. Not that im a proponent of full blown communism either really (im pretty anti-political to be frank), it's just that I get the impression that a very large majority of americans tend to favour capitalistic ideals and a "pro-business" attitude more on principle than being well informed about it and the consequences it has.caprisun said:
And when you show them the particular instance where capitalism fails to deliver, many tend to jump to the conclusion that it is the people who capitalism have failed that are doing wrong and not the other way around. But really, does it actually sound reasonable to say that: "It's not capitalism's fault that we're one of the leading countries in the world with most people per capita in jail, high crime rates and a staggering degree of homeless and social outcasts." ?
The same thing can be said about communism or socialism, it's like many americans discredit it on principle like during the good ol' cold war, "commie"-hating days. Despite the fact that many other rich industrial countries have been leading largely successful government that does incorporate many socialist ideals without having to compromise many of the necessities and benefits which the common citizen has access to. I mean, if anything so much as whiffs of socialism and is inherently dysfunctional and "evil" because of it, then why does it seem to work pretty well for certain countries?
But then again "The American Dream" is a popular concept over there, but frankly you'd have to be fairly naive if you actually believe that "anyone" could strike it rich without having certain starting qualifications first. It's like what George Carlin said: "They call it 'the american dream', it's because you have to be asleep to believe it."
Still we all have our opinions, but it's a little mindboggling why the choice of ideology tend to be a little uninformed, and the fact that the government in question only have two parties and that BOTH of them would jump at the opportunity to discredit an ideology or parts of it that doesn't play along with the traditional one.
I mean, sure I can honestly say that there are a few ideologies over here too that most political parties will demonstrate negative views on. But the ideologies im talking about usually concerns racist and/or neo nazi-ideologies, and I think it's safe to say that pretty much the entire world knows why these are inherently flawed. But the wierd thing about the US is the fact that some citizens and even the government seem to display such zealous opinions about socialist and/or communist ideals as people in THIS country have against neo nazi and racist ideals. Honestly, doesn't certain socialist and communist ideals deserve a little more status as a "gray area" than that?
I can not say really...
A lot of the arguments made against walmart are bullshit, just look for a series with that same name for the better chewing apart of these arguments then I will give, but not all of them. Bullshit is, after all, bias and doesn't touch anything which hurts their argument. They don't touch on some, quite a few, things walmart stores have done which are illegal or/and screwed over the work force.
YET!
I have to say even that depends on the individual store. There are more then a few which don't go around screwing the workers out of a fair pay, after all many do pay over the minimal after all and come with some benefits that other stores don't have. Ok, sure it is a dead end job and won't ever be the sort of pay rate a massive factory or technical field will get you but know what... that isn't walmarts fault! The lack of decent work in the US is a epidemic that we can't blame walmart for. That rests completely in the lap of politicians who have no grasp on economy and buy into the GDP, a economic resuming stick that has nothing to do with economic strength, to the point they screw their own people over in favour of some delusional dream.
You see, Walmart is a franchise and like all franchises it isn't evil just because the 'mother corporation' is a big business. The head office does really little these days, but sit back and get all the money people pay to hang a walmart sign above their store like most franchises and uses amassed contacts to get the store fronts better deals. Nothing unusual there, let alone evil. What real problems walmart has always comes down to the individual stores and in particular who is running them. So many owners/managers are more then willing to sacrifice the workers benefits or even rights to inflate their own incomes. That doesn't make all walmarts evil, just those greedy people running the individual stores.
As for the cheap foreign produced crap?
You can't really be evil just because you deliver what people expect! Walmart does exactly what it sets out to do: Give you cheap crap, most of which is made overseas. If you into the store to buy then you can't just turn around and say 'oh yes, they are evil for offering me this.' It is doing exactly what it said it would do, your the one patronising them for it.
PS: I don't often shop at walmart, got no use for cheap mass produced crap and it boggles my mind the amount of people who purchase the stuff needlessly. This goes back to the whole GDP mindset of economics... as long as people are spending then the economy is good, and as long as you say the economy is good then people spend more on stuff they don't need. Usually using debt, which then leads them to take a second job at walmart to pay for a life style they don't need and can't afford.
Not walmarts fault! They just profit off other peoples stupidity and hell... I'm working tech support, what am I doing that is any different?
If anything, walmart is a symptom and not the cause and many people need to realise this. Maybe if the economy really was doing better instead of this stack of cards measured by the GDP then there wouldn't be a walmart. A real healthy economy leads to better employment and better employment means cheap useless crap is now too 'tacky' to own.
A lot of the arguments made against walmart are bullshit, just look for a series with that same name for the better chewing apart of these arguments then I will give, but not all of them. Bullshit is, after all, bias and doesn't touch anything which hurts their argument. They don't touch on some, quite a few, things walmart stores have done which are illegal or/and screwed over the work force.
YET!
I have to say even that depends on the individual store. There are more then a few which don't go around screwing the workers out of a fair pay, after all many do pay over the minimal after all and come with some benefits that other stores don't have. Ok, sure it is a dead end job and won't ever be the sort of pay rate a massive factory or technical field will get you but know what... that isn't walmarts fault! The lack of decent work in the US is a epidemic that we can't blame walmart for. That rests completely in the lap of politicians who have no grasp on economy and buy into the GDP, a economic resuming stick that has nothing to do with economic strength, to the point they screw their own people over in favour of some delusional dream.
You see, Walmart is a franchise and like all franchises it isn't evil just because the 'mother corporation' is a big business. The head office does really little these days, but sit back and get all the money people pay to hang a walmart sign above their store like most franchises and uses amassed contacts to get the store fronts better deals. Nothing unusual there, let alone evil. What real problems walmart has always comes down to the individual stores and in particular who is running them. So many owners/managers are more then willing to sacrifice the workers benefits or even rights to inflate their own incomes. That doesn't make all walmarts evil, just those greedy people running the individual stores.
As for the cheap foreign produced crap?
You can't really be evil just because you deliver what people expect! Walmart does exactly what it sets out to do: Give you cheap crap, most of which is made overseas. If you into the store to buy then you can't just turn around and say 'oh yes, they are evil for offering me this.' It is doing exactly what it said it would do, your the one patronising them for it.
PS: I don't often shop at walmart, got no use for cheap mass produced crap and it boggles my mind the amount of people who purchase the stuff needlessly. This goes back to the whole GDP mindset of economics... as long as people are spending then the economy is good, and as long as you say the economy is good then people spend more on stuff they don't need. Usually using debt, which then leads them to take a second job at walmart to pay for a life style they don't need and can't afford.
Not walmarts fault! They just profit off other peoples stupidity and hell... I'm working tech support, what am I doing that is any different?
If anything, walmart is a symptom and not the cause and many people need to realise this. Maybe if the economy really was doing better instead of this stack of cards measured by the GDP then there wouldn't be a walmart. A real healthy economy leads to better employment and better employment means cheap useless crap is now too 'tacky' to own.
I had to think of fox news there and put the word 'liberal bias' next to it... my head still hurts. Fact is all media contains bais, period, but there really is no real flavour of it.internetzealot1 said:
[sarcasm] cause we know the people who use the term bias liberal media are not bias in any way. [/sarcasm]
Well wouldn't you agree that fighting if the majority of employees at the store wants to unionize is basically pulling the rug out under the feet of the regulative power of the union overall?Skullpanda said:
I mean, if just one or two guys joins a labour union then the company doesn't really have to care much about them, because if the company decides to bend them over and they don't like it, it won't really matter if they call in the rest of the union becuas one or two guys doesn't hold that much sway over an entire company and they will most likely get fired for resorting to protesting against the company policies or their overstepping of boundaries.
The effectiveness of any union is largely determined of the numbers of workers involved with it. If you as a company basically tell your workers that they have no prospects and will risk their jobs if they "go into bed" with a union and doesn't stay "faithful" to the company, then aren't you basically holding the workers hostage? "it's MY way or you can go find yourself another job, even if MY way entails gross misconduct and treatment of you as an employee", sort of.
And this holds true especially with a chain such as Wal-Mart since a large demographic of their employees consists of people who've been through some sort of financial trouble or are currently undergoing one (you can attest to that yourself can't you? Being a college student and all. Students aren't usually the wealthiest and most powerful individuals in a society when they fund their own studies after all)
Now I know that unions (especially in the U.S) have always upheld an exemplary conduct, and stories of union corruption isn't something unheard of, and that they have been used to basically butt-fuck a whole lot of people, both workers as well as company owners.
But the idea of a union isn't an inherently bad one, it's supposed to work as a safety net for employees of different companies, safeguarding their rights and insurance that they don't get either their wages or benefits cut arbitrarily or in a whimsical fashion. Sure just having a job is important and good to hold onto especially if you don't really have many choices on the job market as it is, but not at any cost.
Many people plan their entire economies and lives after income and benefits from ther workplace. Only the most greedy and selfish company owners would actually consider a certain amount of control and leverage on the workers part in seeing to that these life-changing wages and benefits aren't just swept away suddenly to be a bad thing.
Which brings me back to my original point. If the owners of Wal Mart are afraid of getting butt-fucked by corruption within the unions, why don't they use some of their profits to see to that steps are being taken that eliminates corruption within the unions rather than holding the boot over the head of their employees and basically threaten them with discharge or reduced prospects if they wish to join a union? Basically regulating the union the sort of way a union is supposed to regulate the activities of company owners?
Wouldn't that be more constructive for everyone involved, rather than basically ordering the troops down the line to "stay away from the unions at all cost"?
Hehe, I'd say that it is rather hypocrisy that keeps you in business. Not sure though how beneficial I'd consider that.Skullpanda said:
Still, as I said in my original post in this thread. I think "evil" is an inappropriate choice of word, and it carries way too many religious meanings to be applicable to a corporation. But I find their anti-union stance to be highly questionable. A good employer doesn't substitute the safeguarding of the workers rights by showering the workers with corporate benefits as a "pay off" for the workers to stay away from unions.
A good employer recognize that allowing and making the workers take responsibility in safeguarding their treatment at the workplace is a good thing and that even if you're a part of a company, a company doesn't always do the right thing (since the executive positions aren't always dominated by fair and sound individuals) and sometimes needs to be held in check by external parties with sufficient clout to actually influence the profits and functionalism of that company.
After all, if liberalism and freedom is what is being hoped for and also given, then remember that with the room you get to do good through liberalism, an equal amount of room to do bad is also there. Having several regulating parties overseeing eachother and making sure that everyone stays in line helps making sure no one gets mistreated.
It's not evil in the slightest..i shop in the wal-mart all the time and everything is decently priced and affordable the employees are very helpful and aren't always in your face like most stores have been for me. The only problem that seems to exist in how they act towards employees which i understand isnt the greatest treatment but that's just one notch into the evil slot can't condemn the whole franchise for it.