Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[runnerbelow]

Wow, this is really refusing to die isn't it?

I'm feeling like an ass so I'm going to act like one too. Let me be blunt (this post will probably be entirely buried but whatever) If zero was not a number... Don't you think that would have be realized years ago? We need to realize this, we're not brilliant ground-breaking mathematicians here. What this is that we are debating is what people define as a number.

Everyone who claims this is semantics is absolutely correct. Math is theory. If someone asks you what 1+1 is you don't ask them what their adding together. Math is a language all on it's own. Ultimately word examples don't matter, because in math, you are able to explain anything with the numbers that are in existence, and zero is one of them.

Can we all stop using semantics to make a point? This is math, it's theory, it does not need to have a purpose, it does not matter if it's redundant it's a number, it has a specific use, it has no value because that is the point.

 

[bz316]

I realize that I already know the outcome of this poll. Most of you are going to say yes. And I don't blame you, because that's what you've been taught.

But I'd like you to take a step back and examine it further. I claim that zero is more of a concept than a number. It is a placeholder to theorize the space between positive and negative.

The only time you can have zero of something is in a vacuum (space). And even then, you technically would call it "a vacuum", implying that there is "one" vacuum.

Say for example you have an apple. You then eat the apple. You still have one apple, it's just in a different locale. There is always at least 1 of something (that actually exists of course), even if it is not within your present sight. There are no planes in my front driveway, but there ARE planes somewhere else.

Some people might tell me then, "Well if you can't have zero of something, then you're saying you can't have negatives either." Well, I disagree.

For another example, say you travel -1 miles forwards. Well all that means is that you traveled 1 mile BACKWARDS. Positive and negative imply direction. Zero has no direction, and no value. If a number can be described as 'A figure used to represent value', and zero has no value, then logically zero would not be a number.

Of course, I understand the other side of the argument. If you don't have any apples around, then there must be 0 apples right? This starts bringing in semantics. Yes, I have 0 apples in my room at this current time. No, that does NOT make 0 a number. I can also say no apples are in my room. Is 'no' a number? Absolutely not.

Plus, consider the possibility that there may be, ONE SINGLE PARTICLE of an apple in my room, SOMEWHERE. Just one. It may be in the air, on my desk, on the wall, whatever. That's just .000000000000000000000000000000000001 apples or whatever, not zero.

That's the gist of my argument. If you have a challenge to offer me, I will try to counter it. Please consider this carefully before going "Of course it is, don't be a f***ing idiot."

And I swear to god, if someone uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then"[End idiot voice], I will set a puppy on fire with my mind.

EDIT: Since people seem to be confused, I DO believe zero is a digit, but I do NOT believe it is a number. Just so we're clear. Also, here is another great example I came up with.

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

Interesting points, but I can assure you, zero is a number. The best way to describe how it is a number is to describe it's value in a cartestian coordinate system. The problem is the belief that numbers only represent a discrete quantity of something. While zero does describe a discrete quantity (i.e. zero amount), it is also used in the evaluation the position of objects within a physical space-time. For example, the coordinate (0, 0, 0, 0), representing an object's absolute position within a three dimensional space at zero time. The parameters you use to define where exactly zero is within that physical realm can be totally arbitrary, but the number 0 does describe a component of the object's position in the universe.

 

[sapphireofthesea]

Your using the wrong words to determine what your saying. That and there can be no Negative movement. movement is always either at nothing ( 0 ) or moving ( .00000001 - infinity in speed ) moving backwards would still be a positive movement just in a diffrent direction

Could still work if you choose a particular direction to consider positive (needed in most simple physics). Movement is still directional and if it opposing to the intended direction (as dictated by an observer then one can have negative motion.
*Also to note, anytime an object slows down it does so due to negative motion (that is motion in the opposing direction to the present direction of travel).

Just being a brainiac atm ^^

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

It's easy to think of situations where objectively counting to zero can be as useful and meaningful as counting to another number because the thing being counted has still been defined, such as checking the hull of a boat for holes. If I count zero holes in my boat, and someone asks how many holes in my boat, I can say 'zero', and show them 0 holes in my boat by showing them my complete boat, with no holes. Once we define what we're counting outside of the count itself, then it becomes much clearer that zero is a number, like any other.

 

[Living Contradiction]

I read that blurb in the book "Fact or Fallacy" almost 2 decades ago.

Zero is a number, as it quantifies "null".

Hey, you hear that? That was the universe going "Ding! Correct!"

Folks, numbers are used for one reason: to quantify things. Be they probabilities, amounts of mass, sets of objects, or what have you, if you are dealing with a number, you have a quantity of something. And just as it is possible to have a quantity of something, the absence of that quantity needs to able to be expressed as well. Hence, zero.

For those of you who feel that it is not physically possible to measure zero, join me in a little experiment.

Hold up your right hand palm upwards (yes, let go of your mouse and hold it up).

Now think for a moment about the idea of the cupcake. Everyone knows what a cupcake is, right? Fluffy, cakey goodness in a palm-sized shape. Simple and easy to picture. Got that image in your mind? Peachy.

Now look at the palm of your right hand. You are observing zero cupcakes. The quantity of cupcake in your palm is zero.

This does not preclude the existence of cupcakes elsewhere but it does show that, for the purpose of measuring the amount of cupcake you possess in that hand right now, the number is zero. Hence, zero is a number.

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up? 0 miles
How far away did you travel? 0 miles *Bzzt!*
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

Close, Crystal, but no cigar. You travelled three miles away from your starting point. Returning home does not negate the fact that you travelled three miles away, even if you are in the same place you were spatially eight hours before.

And while you were travelling (and waiting to travel back), time passed. While there is no more distance to quantify once you return home, there is certainly time to quantify, to say nothing of the wear and tear on your shoes and the rest of you.

Finally, this example assumes that you travelled in a straight line. Suppose you decided to stop at a cafe and buy a cupcake on your way home. Did you still travel three miles? What if the cafe wasn't on that straight line? Does that mean that you travelled negative one miles if you went a mile out of your way? And what about the cupcake? There's now more mass present in the place where you originally were, especially if you ate the cupcake on the way home. Does that influence the distance travelled or the fact that you left without something (no cupcake) and returned with it (cupcake, eaten or otherwise)?


Long story short (I know, too late), zero is a number.

 

[Flamingpenguin]

I agree. Zero isn't really a number, but it is a digit.

...makes sense to me.

 

[WrongSprite]

When you say that zero is a concept, not a number, that is utterly confusing. Numbers are concepts by definition. So yeah...nothing else to say really.

 

[Gasaraki]

-Trent Snipzor-

While I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that zero is more of a concept than a number, I don't think your apple example's too good. When you start saying that you don't have 0 apples because there might still be a particle of apple, well that's just nitpicking.

 

[vivalahelvig]

well, zero is not a number....it is a word....a noun at that.
0 is a number although....i like elipses...think of it if i had zero elipses....
...

 

[Angleofdoom]

zero is an abstract concept used to give a value to nothing and as far as i know that does not make it a number

 

[koriantor]

Mathamatically speaking, zero is a number. Regardless of the end result, it still represents a value, even if it's no value.

What the heck is your defintion for a number/digit? Here's mine:

Websters defines a number as "a unit belonging to an abstract mathematical system and subject to specified laws of succession, addition, and multiplication" so it seems "0" fits that definition. Now stop being an idiot.

EDIT: Skoosh the question was directed towards the OP, not you, sorry

 

[kouriichi]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

It's easy to think of situations where objectively counting to zero can be as useful and meaningful as counting to another number because the thing being counted has still been defined, such as checking the hull of a boat for holes. If I count zero holes in my boat, and someone asks how many holes in my boat, I can say 'zero', and show them 0 holes in my boat by showing them my complete boat, with no holes. Once we define what we're counting outside of the count itself, then it becomes much clearer that zero is a number, like any other.

Well no, you owuldent be checking the hull of a boat of 0 holes, youd be checking the hull for 1 or more holes and finding none.

And you wouldent say, my boat has 0 holes, its complete, youd say it has every peice in place to complete it.

its like if you payed people to move stuff for you and you show up at your house where everything was missing, you wouldent say, "Theres 0 of everything in my house!!" you would say, "Theres nothing here."

Im saying, why use 0? its a number you cant attach to anything. When was the last time you told someone, "i have 0 of those." You wouldent. you would say "i dont have those." "I dont own any." or even "im empty on those."

0 isnt a number, for several reason. You cant place it, it has no value, and you cant use it without gimping your phrase xD a box with no cats in it is just a box. A bomb with no explosives is just a falling peice of metal.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

In my view, zero is not a number because a number represents a value or lack thereof (positive or negative)

Wait did you just accidentally disprove you theory of why Zero isn't a number? Because Zero indicates a lack of value or, in other words, nothing. So by your definition zero is a number. And before you say it, no, a negative number does not represent a lack of value. A negative number represents a value in the opposite direction. If you went -5 miles East you would be going 5 miles in the opposite direction of East. That still means that you are traveling a value.

Overall, though this is a very interesting discussion. Its nice to know that people like to challenge preconceived concepts to better understand the world around us. I applaud you for your work.

 

[SGrahambo]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Like I said again and again, you keep trying to give numbers a physical form. What I meant by the challenge to show a picture of "1" is not to prove or disprove the existence of all numbers, but to prove that the number "0" can be used in the exact same context as "1" (a picture with 1 apple vs a picture with 0 apples); that if a 1, being indisputably a number, can be used in the same context and/or situation as 0, then 0 must also represent a number.

And yes, I can give someone 0 $100 bills. I give people 0 $100 bills all the time. How many $100 bills did I just give you right now? 0. In fact, if you asked me how many $100 dollar bills I have ever given anyone in the entire duration of my life (the bank machine doesn't count.) I will say 0, because 0 is a number, and THE number that represents the quantity of $100 bills I have handed out.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

That is EXACTLY what I said in my first reply to you and you admitted that 0 guys in a doggy-door can be true. Just because it's redundant and pointless does not mean it doesn't exist. The Tellitubbies are redundant and pointless, and yet we have to suffer their existence.

 

[silversnake4133]

I like to think of zero as a place holder because that's what it does, it inhabits "empty" space in order to give a value to numbers 1-9 to give it a greater value. We only have nine numbers and a place holder, since every large number and fraction of a number is made up of those nine numbers and a place holder.

So even though it's not an "official" number of value, it is still essential to the combinations we have today that allow us to calculate.

 

[Deceptious]

Felt compelled to reply to this for some reason.
Yes i think zero is both a digit and a quantity
Take basic maths for example...

Well that's part of my point. Zero is used as a placeholder. 10 is ten, 0 is zero. 10 is not one zero now is it? 0 is simply used to write a higher number numerically such as 10, 20, 30, etc.

10 is literally One Zero
It is One 10 to-the-power 2 and Zero 10 to-the-power 2's
If you get me? One 10, and Zero 1s

Or say if i walked 1 meter forwards, and then one meter back (perfectly accurately)
I would have moved 2 meters, but i would be displaced by none.. zero

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

ehh it depends on the case i think, it is a placeholder yes, depending on what units you are using it can mean something, it can mean a physical quantity, however, by itself, zero is nothing.

 

[kikon9]

All numbers are just concepts. They wouldn't exist if humans didn't exist to make the concept. This is because numbers are only created by the human mind in order to rationalize what we observe. They exist in the same way that words or thoughts "exist" yet don't have an actual representation. Because numbers as a whole, don't exist. If zero doesn't exist then it is a number.