Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[crystalsnow]

I realize that I already know the outcome of this poll. Most of you are going to say yes. And I don't blame you, because that's what you've been taught.

But I'd like you to take a step back and examine it further. I claim that zero is more of a concept than a number. It is a placeholder to theorize the space between positive and negative.

The only time you can have zero of something is in a vacuum (space). And even then, you technically would call it "a vacuum", implying that there is "one" vacuum.

Say for example you have an apple. You then eat the apple. You still have one apple, it's just in a different locale. There is always at least 1 of something (that actually exists of course), even if it is not within your present sight. There are no planes in my front driveway, but there ARE planes somewhere else.

Some people might tell me then, "Well if you can't have zero of something, then you're saying you can't have negatives either." Well, I disagree.

For another example, say you travel -1 miles forwards. Well all that means is that you traveled 1 mile BACKWARDS. Positive and negative imply direction. Zero has no direction, and no value. If a number can be described as 'A figure used to represent value', and zero has no value, then logically zero would not be a number.

Of course, I understand the other side of the argument. If you don't have any apples around, then there must be 0 apples right? This starts bringing in semantics. Yes, I have 0 apples in my room at this current time. No, that does NOT make 0 a number. I can also say no apples are in my room. Is 'no' a number? Absolutely not.

Plus, consider the possibility that there may be, ONE SINGLE PARTICLE of an apple in my room, SOMEWHERE. Just one. It may be in the air, on my desk, on the wall, whatever. That's just .000000000000000000000000000000000001 apples or whatever, not zero.

That's the gist of my argument. If you have a challenge to offer me, I will try to counter it. Please consider this carefully before going "Of course it is, don't be a f***ing idiot."

And I swear to god, if someone uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then"[End idiot voice], I will set a puppy on fire with my mind.

EDIT: Since people seem to be confused, I DO believe zero is a digit, but I do NOT believe it is a number. Just so we're clear. Also, here is another great example I came up with.

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

 

[LeonLethality]

I feel it is a number, it can be used to represent a value. I'm sure I used the wrong words for what I am trying to say. I'm tired don't blame me.

 

[Geekosaurus]

We need zeros to make the number 1 into number 10. :/

I get what you mean though. There needs to be a distinction between the number zero, and the concept of nothing. It's just that we use zero to represent nothing.

 

[Tibike77]

A "number" is defined as a abstract mathematical object that is used for measurements or counting, and "zero" is certainly a number going by that definition.
Would your question have been "is ZERO a valid quantity", you might have sort of had a point.

 

[crystalsnow]

We need zeros to make the number 1 into number 10. :/

I get what you mean though. There needs to be a distinction between the number zero, and the concept of nothing. It's just that we use zero to represent nothing.

Well that's part of my point. Zero is used as a placeholder. 10 is ten, 0 is zero. 10 is not one zero now is it? 0 is simply used to write a higher number numerically such as 10, 20, 30, etc.

 

[Georgie_Leech]

Numbers are all abstract, aside from positive integers. If zero is not a number, based on it not having a real-world analog, we are faced with claiming that all mathematics beyond basic arithmatic is false.

 

[TheGreenManalishi]

Zero is digital god.

 

[Xlr8DETH]

using your argument of -1 being something moving backwards 0 would be something not moving

 

[Yer man o'er yonder]

I would agree with you. 0 is not a number, it is the concept of nothingness. There is no equivalent of it in Roman numerals, they considered it unneccassary. However it is still useful as a mathematical construct in the same way as the square root of minus 1. It may not exist in itself but it can be used to calculate many other things.
Of course the digit 0 is another matter but that is more to do with notation than anything else.

 

[Averant]

That's the gist of my argument. If you have a challenge to offer me, I will try to counter it. Please consider this carefully before going "Of course it is, don't be a f***ing idiot."

And I swear to god, if someone uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then"[End idiot voice], I will set a puppy on fire with my mind.

You know, I would find that quite impressive if a puppy randomly caught fire while it walks past me.

I can certainly see where you're coming from. And part of the reason we learned Zero is a number is simply because we were too young to even begin to understand something like this.

But think of this. Zero would be a number because we need something to represent absolutely nothing. If you move 1 mile forward, you move forward. If you move -1 mile forward, you move backward. So if you move zero miles, you didn't move.

and I think you're exaggerating somewhat. If we don't have any apples around, of course there's apples elsewhere. We know that, how could we not? But because there are no apples around us, and we have no idea - no idea at all - of how many apples there ARE in the world, we say there are no apples. And we mean no apples HERE. So we use the "number" zero to signify that there are no apples in the vicinity, or no apples that we know of.

One is something, Zero is nothing. But (and I admit this is a bit of a play on words) when there is nothing there, there is still something there. That something is nothing. If nothing was nothing, we wouldn't have a word for it because if nothing was nothing it wouldn't exist. But we see "Nothing" as "something" despite the fact that it is indeed nothing, because we can't comprehend nothing.

 

[Jamash]

Yes, it's a numerical representation of 'nil' and also represents 'off' in Binary.

 

[kouriichi]

Zero is digital god.

You made my day 8)

Oh, and no, i dont think its a number.
You cant show its value because it has no value. it has no mass, matter, weight or form.

And because anything with no mass, matter, weight or form scientifically does not exist, 0 does not exist.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

It is a number because it represent 1 less than 1. It also represents sin(pi) and other such definitions.

It could be argued that it's an irrational number, because it follows the form x+yi, but it's a pure number. It's also the only non-positive natural number.

You cant show its value because it has no value. it has no mass, matter, weight or form.

And because anything with no mass, matter, weight or form scientifically does not exist, 0 does not exist.

Its value is Null. It has a Null mass, Null matter and Null weight. It's form is a lack of anything, rather than the background that we accept.

 

[glodud]

Me and my friend continuously debate this and I am aware of all your arguments, however to counter your point about "no" not being a number no simply means zero the same way a couple means two, is a couple a number? absolutely not.

You also made a point about negative miles meaning backwards, this is a good point, however it only works with something like miles that is simply an idea and does not have a physical form, for example what would -3 apples look like, it is the same concept as zero (it can't exist).

And finally the reason this point comes up is that people generally visualize something when they think of a number (one is small, a million is big) but with zero they can't do that so people think it's not a number.

 

[Ekonk]

It's the most important number ever. Every modern technology you see today couldn't have been made without the zero.

We're not sure who thought of the zero. The general consensus is that it was a Chinese mathematician, a long long time ago.

 

[Tharwen]

Several civilisations managed without one for thousands of years at a time, so that implies that it isn't. It's hard to say anything about it though, since it's literally our best representation of nothing. Can nothing exist as an entity?

 

[glodud]

Zero is digital god.

You made my day 8)

Oh, and no, i dont think its a number.
You cant show its value because it has no value. it has no mass, matter, weight or form.

And because anything with no mass, matter, weight or form scientifically does not exist, 0 does not exist.

it wouldn't physically exist, but numbers aren't physical.

 

[Plurralbles]

*eye twitch*

I say, it's a number.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well then how do account for Binary? 1011011011101001101

 

[YouBecame]

I think you are confusing two things here. There certainly is a number zero. It was invented by the Babylonians (I guess more discovered than invented). Discovered as the answer to the question "What is one less one?" You may try to argue that then this number isn't a number because it represents a lack of 1's, but I put it to you that indeed that is perfectly valid for a number. Indeed, the number represents the identity element in addition on integers.
On the other hand the idea of empty/nothingness etc is also valid, in terms of saying "yes I have 0 apples so I lack any apples", but that 0 represents a value.

edit:
I may be wrong there. It might have been later on by the Indian mathematicians of ~10th century that discovered it as a number.

Also I would like to mention that the empty set phi is still a set, but also might be better tailored to your argument than the number 0.