Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[Lukeje]

Just because it's an imaginary number doesn't make it any less than a real number.

After all, Pi is an imaginary number but we all love it.

Who would want to live in a world without Pi?

For that matter, how will we ever have future episodes of Sesame Street when children become hyper intelligent, we must have Sesame Street brought to us by the letters Theta, Gamma, and the number i. (Still the best joke I remember from college, even if I forgot which Greek letters were used at the time.)

pi is not an imaginary number and nor is zero. They are both real.

From what I've read on it, zero's both a real and imaginary number. Meh.

As far as Pi, we're talking about a number used to represent "the ratio of any circle's circumference to its diameter". It's practically a variable even though it's claimed to be a constant. I'm certain die hard mathematicians would disagree, but it may as well be imaginary as far as I care. It can't be exactly calculated, it's more functional in imprecise use, and the more I read on it, the more it sounds like a philosophical concept than a scientific one.

Every number from the set of complex numbers may be written in the form x + iy, where i == (-1)[sup]1/2[/sup]. A number for which y = 0 is called a `real number', a number with non-zero y is `imaginary'. Both zero and pi have y = 0, hence they are both real. And why do you say that pi is a variable? It has a constant value.

 

[joshthor]

why are people like this? its not a deep psychological issue, its not going to change anythign if it is or isnt a number, it doesnt make you stupid if you think it is or isnt a number, it just makes you an idiot for spending so much time over thinking! zero is a number. i have 1 phone, however i have 0 ipads. i cant have -1 ipad, cause ive never had one, but i cant have 1 on the same point. 0 is not just a placeholder, its a countable amount. remarkably easy to count as well.

 

[Criquefreak]

Just because it's an imaginary number doesn't make it any less than a real number.

After all, Pi is an imaginary number but we all love it.

Who would want to live in a world without Pi?

For that matter, how will we ever have future episodes of Sesame Street when children become hyper intelligent, we must have Sesame Street brought to us by the letters Theta, Gamma, and the number i. (Still the best joke I remember from college, even if I forgot which Greek letters were used at the time.)

pi is not an imaginary number and nor is zero. They are both real.

From what I've read on it, zero's both a real and imaginary number. Meh.

As far as Pi, we're talking about a number used to represent "the ratio of any circle's circumference to its diameter". It's practically a variable even though it's claimed to be a constant. I'm certain die hard mathematicians would disagree, but it may as well be imaginary as far as I care. It can't be exactly calculated, it's more functional in imprecise use, and the more I read on it, the more it sounds like a philosophical concept than a scientific one.

Every number from the set of complex numbers may be written in the form x + iy, where i == (-1)[sup]1/2[/sup]. A number for which y = 0 is called a `real number', a number with non-zero y is `imaginary'. Both zero and pi have y = 0, hence they are both real. And why do you say that pi is a variable? It has a constant value.

Zero lies on the complex plane axes of both real and imaginary numbers, becoming both. One of those hallmarks of scientific process, don't just test how it is, test also how it isn't. As far as some formula, you're on your own at finding something that proves something only to yourself and those who want to spend months learning why that equation is even used. Anyone can throw random mathematical formula around with the assumption that it proves anything without the hefty background knowledge necessary to even use it properly (much less in context). Every source of information I can find on the topic claims zero to be both real and imaginary and seeing as how zero represents an undemonstratable concept (you can't show people nothing, only an absence of something) I'm leaning far more on the side of it being an imaginary number as it's reliant on something else to even have definition.

While Pi may have a constant value, no one can calculate it to completion. It's common usage is to determine the values of other things whose values will vary and it's not used with its exact value ever (partially because we can't and partially because after the first few digits it could change its constant value at that point and it wouldn't make any difference to the people using it). In common usage, Pi has a varying value determined on how much a person cares for its accuracy and how precise its usage is even useful to the task at hand. But given that you've already assumed putting words in my mouth by changing what I stated from "practically" to "is", I doubt you're inclined to care anyways.

 

[Criquefreak]

why are people like this? its not a deep psychological issue, its not going to change anythign if it is or isnt a number, it doesnt make you stupid if you think it is or isnt a number, it just makes you an idiot for spending so much time over thinking! zero is a number. i have 1 phone, however i have 0 ipads. i cant have -1 ipad, cause ive never had one, but i cant have 1 on the same point. 0 is not just a placeholder, its a countable amount. remarkably easy to count as well.

Somehow I prefer this rationale far more than mine. There is a thing as too much education...

 

[FluxCapacitor]

For anyone who actually cares what the true answer is, we've got mathematical reasons from mathematical people as to why zero is a number peppered all through this thread. We do set theory, Euler's identity, definitions of a number, all numbers as external constructs intangible without context, irrationals and imaginaries also being numbers (despite a lack of physical representation), context implying a lack of an expected thing as a valid real world representation of zero, an implied 'silent' zero of everything you are not currently observing, all sorts of good stuff. There are definite answers to such questions, and you too can know them, if you want to.

Or you can cling to ignorance, I guess nothing we could do can take that away unless you're willing to get rid of it.

 

[Lukeje]

Just because it's an imaginary number doesn't make it any less than a real number.

After all, Pi is an imaginary number but we all love it.

Who would want to live in a world without Pi?

For that matter, how will we ever have future episodes of Sesame Street when children become hyper intelligent, we must have Sesame Street brought to us by the letters Theta, Gamma, and the number i. (Still the best joke I remember from college, even if I forgot which Greek letters were used at the time.)

pi is not an imaginary number and nor is zero. They are both real.

From what I've read on it, zero's both a real and imaginary number. Meh.

As far as Pi, we're talking about a number used to represent "the ratio of any circle's circumference to its diameter". It's practically a variable even though it's claimed to be a constant. I'm certain die hard mathematicians would disagree, but it may as well be imaginary as far as I care. It can't be exactly calculated, it's more functional in imprecise use, and the more I read on it, the more it sounds like a philosophical concept than a scientific one.

Every number from the set of complex numbers may be written in the form x + iy, where i == (-1)[sup]1/2[/sup]. A number for which y = 0 is called a `real number', a number with non-zero y is `imaginary'. Both zero and pi have y = 0, hence they are both real. And why do you say that pi is a variable? It has a constant value.

Zero lies on the complex plane axes of both real and imaginary numbers, becoming both. One of those hallmarks of scientific process, don't just test how it is, test also how it isn't. As far as some formula, you're on your own at finding something that proves something only to yourself and those who want to spend months learning why that equation is even used. Anyone can throw random mathematical formula around with the assumption that it proves anything without the hefty background knowledge necessary to even use it properly (much less in context). Every source of information I can find on the topic claims zero to be both real and imaginary and seeing as how zero represents an undemonstratable concept (you can't show people nothing, only an absence of something) I'm leaning far more on the side of it being an imaginary number as it's reliant on something else to even have definition.

My apologies; you're correct in this (if you look at my definitions they can be reversed, i.e. a purely imaginary number is a number for which x = 0, hence zero is purely imaginary. Thus zero is both imaginary and real). But you still seem to misunderstand what is meant mathematically what is meant by an imaginary number, and so are correct for the wrong reason.

Hefty background knowledge is not required to understand the mathematical concept of imaginary numbers. They're not imaginary because they are `undemonstratable'. They are imaginary because they have a part that is a multiple of the square root of -1. The terminology is confusing, I'll admit. But it's too late to change the word now.

While Pi may have a constant value, no one can calculate it to completion. It's common usage is to determine the values of other things whose values will vary and it's not used with its exact value ever (partially because we can't and partially because after the first few digits it could change its constant value at that point and it wouldn't make any difference to the people using it). In common usage, Pi has a varying value determined on how much a person cares for its accuracy and how precise its usage is even useful to the task at hand. But given that you've already assumed putting words in my mouth by changing what I stated from "practically" to "is", I doubt you're inclined to care anyways.

I use pi's exact value all the time. You just write `pi' in the equation and don't attempt to analytically calculate it.

Edit: I also don't see what our ability to only calculate pi within our standard numbering system to a finite degree of accuracy in finite time has to do with whether it has any multiples of i.

 

[ikey]

0 is not a number. Just like black and white aren't colors. It represents nothingness. Think of it in terms of money. When you have nothing of something, that's it. It's really difficult to describe, so forgive me if I make no sense.the "number" 0 is used frequently to express the lack of any number of something.
I haven't researched this, so if you have and found on a reliable source that 0 is technically a number, please tell me.

 

[Ravek]

This is a troll thread right? Damn ridiculous.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Given that every common definition of the word number would include Zero, I'd say that yes it would count. Beyond that, we have the simple fact that zero is almost certainly the most important number.

In linear algebra, a system that is equivalent to zero is "homogeneous", and has a number of useful properties.

In calculus, the concept of a derivative exists to examine the instantaneous rate of change of an equation, a process that relies upon the process of taking the limit of a function as the change in a given variable approaches zero.

In algebra, a system of the form ax^2 + bx + c = 0 is known as a quadratic equation and has a trivial solution.

In statistical analysis, an empty set (what is implied by zero), has special implications.

I could go on at great length. Suffice it to say that the "discovery" of the concept of zero was critical to modern mathematics.

 

[chemicalfire]

Zero is the origin.

 

[Criquefreak]

Then I guess I deserve the name calling and verbal abuse passive-aggressively directed my way. Heaven forbid I try to understand something when clearly someone else understands it far better than I ever could. Who knew that an imaginary number was defined as something other than a purely conceptual number that cannot be demonstrated in reality as opposed to something that equations invented purely to rationalize them would prove. It's not like science goes about redefining things to try and clear up confusion, except those times when it does, but math's just fine. Probably also doesn't help that I'd be hard pressed to find an educator who'd teach the whole thing the way it's being argued to me as opposed to a more functional method, maybe even similar to what I've clearly stated wrong but got right somehow...

Not like the original post also appears to be openning things to opinion and discussion, more likely for the debasement of those who might disagree with our math majors. But I should've understood that was likely to happen, this being the internet and all. I'll accept fault on this error in judgment, I often forget that superiority means more than community and diplomacy online. Sorry, my bad.

But maybe I missed the post where someone actually tried to explain the concept in less confusing terminology than: plug random numbers into this equation from god knows where since you've either never seen it before or couldn't possibly be expected to remember it seeing as how its only use is never encountered in any practical task, only theoretical ones. Plus it is irresponsible attempting to use something as potentially misleading as an unknown equation as proof of anything without properly understanding its background; that background knowledge is far more important than the equation itself and while giving a formula might help people solve a staged problem, it does nothing in helping a person understand it or the concepts it's based on.

I think I may have figured out why so many children hate learning math. There is way too much theory involved in this junk than would ever be remotely useful in most of our lives and it's far easier to cut corners than to help someone understand it.

 

[Phlakes]

If I have zero watermelons on my roof, I still have a certain amount of watermelons on my roof.

Also, all numbers are concepts.

 

[oktalist]

As far as Pi... the more I read on it, the more it sounds like a philosophical concept than a scientific one.

Pi is not a philosophical concept, nor a scientific one. It's mathematical. Maths is not science and it's not philosophy.

And imaginary numbers are still numbers.

As far as some formula, you're on your own at finding something that proves something only to yourself and those who want to spend months learning why that equation is even used.

You mean mathematicians?

Mathematics is just a completely made-up system. It's not based on observation like science is. There is no proof that zero is a number, because it's true by definition. It's one of the facts that you can use to prove more complicated theorems, along with facts like the plus sign adds numbers together. There have to be a priori facts like that in maths or we'd never get anywhere with it.

I haven't researched this, so if you have and found on a reliable source that 0 is technically a number, please tell me.

Source: almost every mathematician of the last 500 years.

Zero represents either the absence of an item or a place as is 10 equals ten, because nothing is in the 1's place.

Yeah, remember that from math class. 1's, 10's, 100's places? That's right, those little 0's are placeholders, not numbers.

What was the last math class you took, 3rd grade? You are confusing the written representations of numbers with the actual numbers themselves. If 0 is just a placeholder then so is 1, 2, 42, 1337 and all the rest. They're all just symbols we use to refer to numbers.

 

[oktalist]

Then I guess I deserve the name calling and verbal abuse passive-aggressively directed my way.

Welcome to the internet.

Who knew that an imaginary number was defined as something other than a purely conceptual number that cannot be demonstrated in reality as opposed to something that equations invented purely to rationalize them would prove.

Um, anyone who's ever graduated high school?

But maybe I missed the post where someone actually tried to explain the concept in less confusing terminology than: plug random numbers into this equation from god knows where since you've either never seen it before or couldn't possibly be expected to remember it seeing as how its only use is never encountered in any practical task, only theoretical ones.

Most of the formulae you will have seen here will have been typed from memory by people who do use them in their jobs every day because they are very useful, especially in science and technology.

We are not teachers. Don't expect the internet to teach you this stuff.

FWIW you are asking for something that doesn't exist. There is no proof that zero is a number. It is just defined to be so, because it works. You are free to redefine it just to be different, but don't come complaining when you crash the space shuttle or plunge the east coast into darkness because your technology broke down because people can't subtract numbers any more.

If you're not willing to learn about stuff from a proper source that's not an internet forum, then you can't really complain that you don't understand it. Just accept that millions of professionals who've sent people into space and split the atom might just possibly know better than some kid who doesn't even know what an imaginary number is. No offence.

 

[Criquefreak]

Most of the formulae you will have seen here will have been typed from memory by people who do use them in their jobs every day because they are very useful, especially in science and technology.

We are not teachers. Don't expect the internet to teach you this stuff.

FWIW you are asking for something that doesn't exist. There is no proof that zero is a number. It is just defined to be so, because it works. You are free to redefine it just to be different, but don't come complaining when you crash the space shuttle or plunge the east coast into darkness because your technology broke down because people can't subtract numbers any more.

If you're not willing to learn about stuff from a proper source that's not an internet forum, then you can't really complain that you don't understand it. Just accept that millions of professionals who've sent people into space and split the atom might just possibly know better than some kid who doesn't even know what an imaginary number is. No offence.

If someone's going to debate a point they're either trying to impart knowledge, learn (explore) a concept further, or gain a feeling of superiority at the debasement of someone else. By virtue of challenging a point someone else made, the only useful purpose someone could be pursuing is the first and second cases. If the third was the only case, I doubt proper method of debate would ever be allowed in any kind of curriculum.

We are all teachers and students, kind of the way of the world, all here to learn and everyone else on the planet are effectively the best way to pass on knowledge.

I was quite certain I had learned from proper sources, last time I place any faith in public education systems as it's clearly lead me to a false understanding of things and no end of people whose intention is clearly to be offensive. One thing you may want to consider in the future is avoiding assumptions and exaggerations when using the phrase "no offense" as well as the pointing of fingers. I can understand how someone would get the idea of complaining about not understanding as opposed to raising complaint as to the treatment of a person making a mistake, though I'm upset to see the behavior continue.

 

[Kazturkey]

Maybe not in relation to apples, but in physics zero is a VERY important number. 0 degrees kelvin, for example, is the point where all physical laws involving heat break down. 0 metres per second is a body at rest, and so on. without zero, stuff doesn't work.

 

[Calatar]

This is a troll thread right? Damn ridiculous.

Pretty much.
OP: "Something that you thought was true isn't true because [bad and confusing explanation]"
Responses: "It is now my personal mission to show how you are wrong"

 

[oktalist]

snippysnip

You make some good points. I'm sorry if I came across all offensive like. The internet is like a lens that magnifies aggro. Also still being awake a 6am can't help matters much. (Excuses, excuses.)

It just seemed to me that you were refusing to take on board people's points, and making assumptions about people's levels of knowledge.