Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?

[SoonerMatt]

To parrot everyone's voices here, it was created with good intent but the application went horribly wrong.

Snip

QED, , whatever you want to call it. I'm a truly sorry for your losses; what he said from a first hand account should really be the only piece we take home from this thread.

 

[Lullabye]

Hi. The name is Leonard. I am almost 16, and sometimes I peek around this forum while waiting for Zero Punctuation to load. You have a wonderful community. Hope I will get absorbed into it quickly.

So, anyway: I live in Raanana, Israel. It's a beutiful city. Small, hardly a city by most standards, and most people are old and creepily religious. But it is a very calm and beutiful place, too. The swamp that was once here is all but gone. Our city has amazing gardens and parks, the education is considerd very good and there is almost no crime.
I lived in Raanana my whole life. In fact, so did my father and grandfather(His father came from Russia). So I am an Israeli in blood and in heart. That makes me the worst or the best guy to ask about this topic, depending on who you ask. By the way, today is Yom Ha'Shoa in Israel. (If you read this post, please send a short prayer to all the Holocaust victims. They deserve it). Next week is Yom Ha'Zikaron.(In which we remember the victims of the wars that plagued Israel since it's birth), so I decided to join this forum so that I can at least add something to this discussion that troubles us all. It is the right thing to do, I belive.

So you are asking what is my opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I will be very honest with you: I think that nobody here, not me, not you, not even most politicians in or out of Israel know enugh about the subject to have an actual opinion. I have had the pleasure and the honour to meet a man who devoted his whole lift to the study of this very topic, yet even he said that he would never be able to form a good opinion because humans as a species, no matter how they hide it, are at their core biased, self serving assholes who only care about themselves and themselves and themselves.
He is very right. I live this conflict ever since I was born. My girlfriend, a girl that I cared about very much, was killed by a Palestinian rocket* a few weeks ago. My older brother, a man who I care very much about Will never be the same after the horrors he saw during his service. Yet I force myself not to hate the Pelestinians, because I know this hate will not be justified and will make me as bad as all the others around here who know nothing about the conflict and simply shout to be heard.

I am eqully disgusted and filled with pity when I see a six years old Palestinian boy in the news or the six years old orthodox boy from next door shouting that the [other side] are all evil bloodthirsty warmongering monsters and that they will gladly sacrafice their lives to destroy [other side].

I DO NOT think that the settlers\colonists\however they are called in your place(We call tham Mitnachalim) have any right to set up their rickity villages on Palestinian territory(Israel is doing it's best to demolish those, but they are zealous and fanatic and just settle somwhere else). I also DO NOT think Palestinians have the right to kidnap soldiers or send suicide bombers into shopping malls or bus stations befor they tried peacful negotiations(And don't tell me they did. When the solution was suggested that would give the two peoples an equal shar of the land(I actually think they were promised more but I don't remember clearly and I don't want to say anythink dangerous), the jews agreed, but the arabs just started making threats that eventually escalated into a very bloody war whose peorpse was TOTAL ANNIHILATION of the jewish people).

I do not think Tzahal(You call tham the IDF, right?) soldiers have the right to use innocent bystanders as meat shields or targate practice(They say they "suspected they might be carrying weapons", but I don't belive tham. They were just bloodthirsty fanatics no better than the suicide bombers and I am happy they were severely punished. I also do not think the Palestinians have any right to attack civialians all day with kasams(My aforementioned girlfriend had to the shelter ten times a day a few years ago). Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad. Also note that we Tzahal makes utmost effort to avoid collateral damage when bombing, even if it makes their job a thousands times more difficult. Unlike, say, one country whose name I can't quite recall who naplamed the shit out of another country some forty years ago. They also used chemical weapons, but that is another thing already.

I do not think we have a right to own Jerusalem. I do not think anybody has. If it was up to me I would say the place needs to be blown the fuck up to solve many many many problems. But it is not up to me.

If there was a peacful resolution available it would be great. But their is not. Both sides are to stubborn and both hate the other side so unconditionally that this would likely never happen.

Israel alwayes was, is now, and will likely alwayes be at a state of war. It is a shame, but we simply have no other place to go. This is our home. This is where we were born. This is the land of our ancestors and this of of our children. The arabics can, of course, say the exact same and nobody would ever be able to prove he is right.

You must understand: Today is the day where our whole country goes silent in remembrance of the Holocaust. Today is the day where we are most aware of the fact that Israel is our only home, our only sanctuary in a world that hates us, whether there is a reason or ther is not. And we will protect this haven no matter what, because we truly can't go anywhere else.
We jews went through hell. Some of us, less than a half of us, survived, albeit with scars to their very souls. They came here following dreams and prophecies thousands of years old, expacting to find peace. They never did. Critisize Israel at your leisure, but please, don't deny us the only thing we have.

P.S. My younger brother, four years old asked me just a minuete ago what I was doing. I said that I am telling people in far away lands that Israel is not evil. He was quite and then he said "Please tell tham that we are not evil. We do not like to kill. It is sad.". How very touching.

P.P.S. Don't listen to what the media tells you. The media is alwayes biased. This war saw the burned corpses of Israeli and Palestinian babies. Most networks will only show you one, quietly forgetting about the other). It is the way media works. It is a shame.

* She lived in Sderot. Not a good idea at all. By the way, my ex girlfriend died of brain cancer, and the one before her in a car accident. Someome up there wants me to stay alone, I susspose.



Good evening, everyone.
Leonard

we should try to publish this. its fucking amazing. I have never been so touched in my life. Man, leonard I may be godless but I sure as hec pray things get better for you and your people. And the country you were thiking of was America, when it blew up japan roughly 60-70 years ago.

 

[Lullabye]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

then you can say that about the USA. were the english people here first? or were the indians here first? i think it was the indians land therefore any american including myself is not an american and we dont belong here nor are we deserving it.

Ironically, they used god and destiny ad an excuse to rape pillage and kill their way to conquering america. I think if those dicks can do that the jews can have their land.

 

[kalaim]

And so, everyone realised how easy it is to go critical over a situation that many of us only watch through little image boxes made to fuck our mind and yet hardly understand from A to Z.

 

[Ishnuvalok]

*Snip*

/thread

This is the only post we need in this thread.

 

[Nmil-ek]

Bleh too complex cant we just bomb both Israel and Palastine problem solved.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Man, I love that Merkava.


The video footage of that monster flying over sand dunes gives me chills. The good kind.

OT: I'm neutral on the subject of its creation. However, I always have, and always will, acknowledge it as a legitimate nation.

 

[Farson89]

Should it have been created in the first place? No.

Is it far too late to reverse it? Yes.

I'm actually more than a little bit worried by the sheer number of people apparently in favour of Israel here. Imagine for a moment, if you will, that you are a Palestinian. You're just going about living your life under the Ottoman Empire then the British Empire, finally one day your people are given the chance to govern themselves, to finally be free. All the while white people from Europe (mainly anyway) have been trickling in, then they seem to start swarming in, and before you know what's happening you're being driven from your homes by white people with guns.

I have nothing but sympathy for what happened to the Jewish people at the hands of not only Nazi Germany but throughout history, but being oppressed and murdered yourselves does not give you the right to do it to others.

I also don't necessarily have a problem with the Israelis themselves, many of them, like Leonard (good post btw), were simply born into the conflict. It's the original invaders who've got a lot to answer for, and most of them have died off.

 

[johnman]

At the time to seemed like a good idea, their had a been an attempt to eliminate Jews as a race/religion and it would be harder for this to happen again if they had their own country.
But in hindsight it was a bad idea. It pissed of the middle east who blame us and it all helped lead to the situation we have today

 

[magicmonkeybars]

If jews have there own "land" that makes them a race right? So christians are a race to because they have the vaticaan

Actually its a different thing entirely. Being Jewish is an inheritted thing, its more than religion. We are an identifiable tribe or people, we just lost our homeland a couple thousand years ago. We are unique in that we are pretty much the only displaced people that didn't disappear.

and that is why you can't find a single country in any time who hasn't hated you for it.
if only the "jews"understood the real problem you might not have to live in fear for all of your lives.

 

[Captain_Caveman]

I honestly don't know. I'm not going to go read a wiki page and pretened I have it all figured out. If it was that simple the problem would have been solved LONG ago.

From what I understand there really isn't an answer. Ok, look at it like this; land in this day in age is largely based on wars fought hundreds of years ago. Whichever people had the best armies conquered the most land. That's how borders were determined. (except for some lands which people just didn't because they were so inhospitable, like jungle or desert)

People have lived in and around isreal for a LONG time. Mainly because it's location was hospitable for humans long ago. (not so much now because it's so damn hot). And people have attached sentimentality to it because of that. Israelis and Palestinians have both lived in and around the area for longer than anyone can remember.

IMO it's probably the best set-up now because if Palestinians controlled it they would execute anyone they didn't like who entered it. At least Israelis are somewhat tolerant.

Not like it will matter. In a couple hundred years the whole planet will be under one government & instead of this country vs that country; it will be people vs government.

 

[Nurb]

if you want to go back a thousand years, the area belonged to jews and christians of the eastern roman empire (well byzantium) until the persian invasion. They swept from the east all the way to lay seige to constantinople/istanbul which prompted the start of the Crusades to get the 'holy lands' back from the invaders. It didn't work so it became arab over time

Going back further (if I remember my history):
The land was roman... before that
It was Jewish... before that
It was Greek... before that
It was Persian... before that
It was Jewish... Before that
it was a bunch of warring tribes and kingdoms fighting the egyptians

The land was Jewish more often than other conquerers, but its been fought over since dawn of civilization, so you could say that historicly, the Jews took back the land they once held

 

[Leorex]

I have no problem with the creation of isreal my problem is how we treat them. like they can do no wrong.

 

[Zombie_Fish]

Personally, I think that the Jews should have their own country, but they shouldn't be so up themselves about other cultures (Treatment of Palestinians etc.).

I turn to a quotation from Marcus Brigstocke (I mean no offence by this, but it does help get my message across):

"Jews, now we all know that you're 'God's Chosen People' and the rest of us are 'Whatever'..."

 

[Captain_Caveman]

Actually its a different thing entirely. Being Jewish is an inheritted thing, its more than religion. We are an identifiable tribe or people, we just lost our homeland a couple thousand years ago. We are unique in that we are pretty much the only displaced people that didn't disappear.

Well the majority of people who identify themselves as Jewish dont really practice Judaism anymore. Many, if not the majority, are also half or mostly of European or Russian decent because of the exodus.

So Jews are less a people and more a religion now, imho.

I've studied a lot of religions, mainly because the private school my parents forced me to go to made it mandatory. I don't see a whole lot great about any of them. Sure some seem like they'd be healthier for society than others (islam is kinda scary imo, no offense to any muslims). But this whole "ancient people" or "chosen people" thing seems like it's more of an ego trip than anything. imho. We're all the same, it's only the way we perceive.

 

[Unknower]

Is the UAA's existance justified?

UAA? I tried to to google that but I found only these things:

Universal Audio Architecture
University of Alaska Anchorage
University Athletic Association
United Airsoft Alliance
Utility Arborist Association
Underground Action Alliance
Uyghur American Association

What country did you mean?

 

[Oopsie]

Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad.

Well this was where I stopped reading. Frankly I lost you there. I truely doubt a warning before a bombing run would be given. This is simply insane from a military standpoint. It would allow the enemy to set up defenses not at, but beyond their (known) position or simply move away, as they would surely notice all the civilians being evacuated. In such a case, wouldn't the only real damage done be the collateral damage, as "minor" as it may be?
How long do the palestinians get to evacuate anyway?

Also, even if the palestinian government fails to evacuate why no pity for people who most likely don't have anything to do with the conflict? Perhaps they are forced to stay, you know, against their will, or they do not wish to leave because their livelyhood is there and they can't make it without it (example; a shop owned by a family or perhaps cattle).

I simply cannot understand you throw your pity for inoocent people or children at the very least out the window because of something the "Tzahal" claims.