Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?

[The Infamous Scamola]

I was inspired to create this thread after the vast amount of discussion this subject created on my other thread regarding the controversial speech made by Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at the 2009 World conference against racism.

Many people think that the creation of the Jewish state was a great mistake that had a great amount to do in the whole destabilization process of the Middle East, while others think that after the horrors of the Holocaust the Jewish people were well deserving of a land to call their own.

Another hot issue is the treatment of the Palestinians living in Israel and the treatment they receive by the Israeli government, wich many people think is an example of institutionalized racism.

What I would like to know is your stance on the whole Israelian issue.

P.S. Please keep it civil, do not use to racist or offensive epithets, I would very much prefer that this thread did not get locked.


If you want to learn more about Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

 

[Mardy]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel(I don't mean at the foundation of Israel) and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

 

[Zersy]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them. Being f***ed over does not mean you can spread the hate around by doing it to other people.

 

[Jumplion]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

 

[Zersy]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

I wish someone would hurry up and make a documentry on how the Pilgrims killed all the natives because that would be seriously intresting to watch

 

[Creos]

Should the Jew's have had a place to go lick their wounds and rebuild their society after WW2? Yes. Was the current location more or less the epitome of stupid places to put them? Yes.

Now that said, It wasn't chosen entirely without thought. Technically, no one owned the land. It's arguable that no one owns the land around the state of Isreal either. But really, why is it such a thing to be fought so hard over? Yes there's all teh religious stuff, but mostly, Isreal, if you take away all the bombing and fighting, is a pretty nice place to live, especially compared to the barren desert surrounding it. People want to be able to better care for their families.

And here's why it wasn't that stupid a place to send them. When Isreal was first founded, it was one of the most inhospitable places to live on the face of the planet. No one wanted to live there. No one /could/ effectively live there. Not with out a lot of money and a hell of a lot of work to make it nice. But the Jews moved there, spent the money, did the hard labor, and made it a damn fine place to live.

So... I have to say that as wrong as a lot of the Isreali decisions on how to deal with their neighbors have been, I can't fault them for clawing out a nice bit of real estate from the sand and then fighting tooth and nail to keep it, no matter the cost.

 

[Mardy]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Hey retard, they invaded Palestine 1st, u think palestinians should stand still and get kicked out / killed without doing anything, but sorry you are a retarded bum. go read history mr.badass.

I was speaking about the last time it was all over the news. Also I stated it werent always the palestinians that attacked first.

 

[Aardvark Soup]

Originally they had no right to create the state there. However, what has happened happened and I hope there will eventually be a two-state solution or at least a long complete ceasefire between Israël (who would also stop building residences in Palestinian territories), Hamas and Fatah. Unfortunately I'm afraid that isn't going to happen soon.

 

[Labyrinth]

I don't believe that Israel as it is should have been created because it was just displacing a whole bunch of other people who already lived there, imposing artificial rule upon those that were left. Palestinian villages were emptied, razed and replaced leaving hundreds of thousands to live in refugee camps because they have nothing to go back to and no way to get there.

As I said in the other thread, it's not anti-Semitic to criticise and disagree with Israel. That in particular pisses me off. The Israeli government has absolutely no right to act as it did because of the Holocaust.

 

[Same River New Water]

It was a well-intentioned idea that was not properly thought through and suffered a lot of horrible consequences that nobody foresaw. So the creation of Israel is justified, but it would be better if it had been done differently from the start.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

I don't believe that Israel as it is should have been created because it was just displacing a whole bunch of other people who already lived there, imposing artificial rule upon those that were left. Palestinian villages were emptied, razed and replaced leaving hundreds of thousands to live in refugee camps because they have nothing to go back to and no way to get there.

While I do agree with you, couldn't this be said for any other New World nation?

 

[TheEvilDuck]

I would like to begin by saying neither side is innocent. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have blood on their hands but everyone else in the world blames one side or the other, painting the "perpetrators" as inhuman monsters and the side they support as victims and angels. Both sides are guilty in this situation, whether or not people want to believe it. I don't agree with Palestinians acting as suicide bombers or kidnapping but neither do I agree with Israeli soldiers attacking bystanders or shooting up children in Palestine.

Now, I think Israel needs to exist. That doesn't mean I agree with everything the Israeli government does, but Judaism is a very tiny religion that is persecuted against througout the world. There are people who live and die for Israel and in theory it doesn't hurt anyone (IN THEORY.) With numbers of Jews around the world dropping by the thousands it's important to have this place, this heart, this haven.

HOWEVER, I disagree with Israeli treatment of Palestinians and personally believe that half of Palestinian land should be returned and passage between the Israel and Palestinian land should be made easier. Also, I believe that Jerusalem should be made a sovereign nation, like the Vatican, because it isn't just holy to Jews but also to Muslims and Christians.

That's just my personal belief.

 

[Brett Alex]

The saddest part of the whole saga is The "Father" of Zionism had changed his mind about Palestine, and instead was actually pushing to get settlements up and running in Uganda. However, his death allowed the other senior members to go back to their preferred location in the Middle East.

It makes you wonder if a whole lot of this violence could have been avoided

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

Lets be fair here. That was done 200 odd years ago. Not only did Europeans know very little about the existence Native Americans, who were separate, non-unified groups of tribes and families. They were not a single country under a single government who had been promised the land as a reward for overthrowing their Ottoman oppressors.

And it happened when colonialism was still an accepted and widely encouraged practice.
Slavery was an accepted practice in America back then, does it mean modern day slavers can use that as an excuse to continue the trade in todays world?

I agree that the whole issue is far, far, far from black and white, but the fact remains that Israel was established in a time when the Zionists should have known better.

 

[Azeban]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

America needs to stop policing the world. If Israel is meant to survive, it will on its own power. We've given it enough help.

We need to let the Middle East fight their never-ending moronic war.

Remember the good old days, when Middle Easterners were too busy in their attempts to exterminate Jews to plan terrorist attacks on the United States? I miss those days.

Trying to stop their fighting is pointless. Just let them drag each other down into the shit. Eventually they'll just nuke each other. Problem solved.

Yeah, yeah, I'm heartless. I'm just starting to doubt whether people from that region can be reasoned with. Can you reason with people so brainwashed that they destroy themselves for the ideals that have been shoved in their heads by their leaders? Yeah, yeah, the ones who blow themselves up are extremists, but look around you. Do you see any Catholic suicide bombers blowing up the local Walmart for Jesus? No, you don't. For whatever reason, they're much more violent than we are.

 

[Knight Templar]

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

Thousands of years ago, yes.

If you want to start "who was there first" then everybody but Russia needs to give up all their land.

Russia only gets off because nobody has the balls to say anything to them.

 

[cordeos]

While I do agree with you, couldn't this be said for any other New World nation?

that's a very good point, almost the entirety of North and South America has terrible relations with their Native populations, the US and Canada are getting better as are some of the Central and South American countries, but on a whole they have been marginalized and ignored.

 

[Labyrinth]

While I do agree with you, couldn't this be said for any other New World nation?

Yes. And I do say it for many of them.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Hey retard, they invaded Palestine 1st, u think palestinians should stand still and get kicked out / killed without doing anything, but sorry you are a retarded bum. go read history mr.badass.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Read up on history yourself.

Britain took control of the Palestine area after the partition of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The handing over of the land to the Jews was their call to make at the time.

The Ottomans took over the land from the Mamaluke Sultanate.

The Mamaluke Sulatanate took over the land from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

The Kingdom of Jerusalem took over the land from the Seljuk Sultanate.

The Seljuk Sultanate took over the land from the Abbasid Caliphate.

The Abbasid Caliphate was a successor to the Ummayyad Caliphate, which took over the land from the Byzantine Empire.

The Byzantine Empire was a successor to the Roman Empire, which took over the land from the Maccabean Kingdom of Israel.

The Maccabean Kingdom of Israel took over the land from the Seleucid Empire.

The Seleucid Empire was a successor to the Macedonian Empire, which took over the land from the Persian Empire.

The Persian Empire took over the land from the Babylonian Empire, which took over the land from the Kingdom of Judah.

The Kingdom of Judah was a successor to the Davidian Kingdom of Israel, which arose out of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel conquered the land from the Canaanite peoples.

The Canaanite peoples inhabited the land and were conquered by the Egyptian Empire.

If the Bible is correct, the Canaanite peoples were aliens who inhabited the land after the Jacobean family left to live in Egypt.

The Jacobean family traced its lineage back to Abraham, who came to the land when no-one had any real claim to it.

In the end, everyone's claim to the land is shaky, but I believe that Israel has a better claim to it than most.