Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?

[GloatingSwine]

The justification used for the siting of Israel is faulty. Christian and Jewish scholars have tried for a century and more to find archaeological evidence to support the pentateuch and it simply is not there, one of David Ben Gurion's first instructions were to "find me the title deeds to Israel" in the archaeological record, but the reality is that Israel is there.

And here's why it wasn't that stupid a place to send them. When Isreal was first founded, it was one of the most inhospitable places to live on the face of the planet. No one wanted to live there. No one /could/ effectively live there. Not with out a lot of money and a hell of a lot of work to make it nice. But the Jews moved there, spent the money, did the hard labor, and made it a damn fine place to live.

Bullshit.

People have been living on that scrap of land for the last four thousand years or so. There are long archaeological records of settlements, both Jewish and otherwise (some settlements don't have pig bones in their refuse, some do). In terms of fertility it's pretty much the prime real estate in the whole area.

 

[Azeban]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Hey retard, they invaded Palestine 1st, u think palestinians should stand still and get kicked out / killed without doing anything, but sorry you are a retarded bum. go read history mr.badass.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Read up on history yourself.

Britain took control of the Palestine area after the partition of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The handing over of the land to the Jews was their call to make at the time.

The Ottomans took over the land from the Mamaluke Sultanate.

The Mamaluke Sulatanate took over the land from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

The Kingdom of Jerusalem took over the land from the Seljuk Sultanate.

The Seljuk Sultanate took over the land from the Abbasid Caliphate.

The Abbasid Caliphate was a successor to the Ummayyad Caliphate, which took over the land from the Byzantine Empire.

The Byzantine Empire was a successor to the Roman Empire, which took over the land from the Maccabean Kingdom of Israel.

The Maccabean Kingdom of Israel took over the land from the Seleucid Empire.

The Seleucid Empire was a successor to the Macedonian Empire, which took over the land from the Persian Empire.

The Persian Empire took over the land from the Babylonian Empire, which took over the land from the Kingdom of Judah.

The Kingdom of Judah was a successor to the Davidian Kingdom of Israel, which arose out of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel conquered the land from the Canaanite peoples.

The Canaanite peoples inhabited the land and were conquered by the Egyptian Empire.

If the Bible is correct, the Canaanite peoples were aliens who inhabited the land after the Jacobean family left to live in Egypt.

The Jacobean family traced its lineage back to Abraham, who came to the land when no-one had any real claim to it.

In the end, everyone's claim to the land is shaky, but I believe that Israel has a better claim to it than most.

At the end of the day, who it "belongs to" doesn't matter. America belonged to the Native Americans. We had guns, they had arrows. We won. Those with superior firepower are the ones who will take the land as their own.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Those with superior firepower are the ones who will take the land as their own.

And if this little history lesson has anything to teach, that is it.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Those with superior firepower are the ones who will take the land as their own.

And if this little history lesson has anything to teach, that is it.

Is that really all it boils down to, "Might is right"?

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Those with superior firepower are the ones who will take the land as their own.

And if this little history lesson has anything to teach, that is it.

Is that really all it boils down to, "Might is right"?

Call me a cynic, but that's exactly what I believe.

 

[Azeban]

Those with superior firepower are the ones who will take the land as their own.

And if this little history lesson has anything to teach, that is it.

Is that really all it boils down to, "Might is right"?

It doesn't really matter that we frown on it. It's the way the world does war. And war? War never changes.

Hehe...too much Fallout 3. That last line gave me chills when I played it.

 

[Leftley]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Hey retard, they invaded Palestine 1st, u think palestinians should stand still and get kicked out / killed without doing anything, but sorry you are a retarded bum. go read history mr.badass.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Read up on history yourself.

Britain took control of the Palestine area after the partition of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The handing over of the land to the Jews was their call to make at the time.

The Ottomans took over the land from the Mamaluke Sultanate.

The Mamaluke Sulatanate took over the land from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

The Kingdom of Jerusalem took over the land from the Seljuk Sultanate.

The Seljuk Sultanate took over the land from the Abbasid Caliphate.

The Abbasid Caliphate was a successor the Ummayyad Caliphate, which took over the land from the Byzantine Empire.

The Byzantine Empire was a successor to the Roman Empire, which took over the land from the Maccabean Kingdom of Israel.

The Maccabean Kingdom of Israel took over the land from the Seleucid Empire.

The Seleucid Empire was a successor to the Macedonian Empire, which took over the land from the Persian Empire.

The Persian Empire took over the land from the Babylonian Empire, which took over the land from the Kingdom of Judah.

The Kingdom of Judah was a successor to the Davidian Kingdom of Israel, which arose out of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel conquered the land from the Canaanite peoples.

The Canaanite peoples inhabited the land and were conquered by the Egyptian Empire.

This is as far back as recorded history tells of the ownership of the land. If the Bible is correct, the Canaanite peoples were aliens who inhabited the land after the Jacobean family left to live in Egypt.

The Jacobean family traced its lineage back to Abraham, who came to the land when no-one had any real claim to it.

In the end, everyone's claim to the land is shaky, but I believe that Israel has a better claim to it than most.

In addition to that, people seem to forget that Britain and the UN's original plan in 1947 to have a two state solution, with Jerusalem being an international city administered by the UN so that both Arabs and Jews were satisfied. While this was accepted by the Jews, the Arabs did not and consequently attacked the Jews. The now Israelis declared independence anyway and subsequently had numerous Arab countries declare war on them.

Since the borders have been set, Hamas' consistent opposition to non-violent forwarding of their political position has been frowned upon by the international community. Yet people are still outraged that Israel actually did something about having their innocent citizens blown up by rocket attacks just because it's not 'proportionate'? Since when has a war even been clearly won using proportionate attacks? They'd just be lobbing missiles at each other endlessly. That's not to say I agree with everything that Israel did in their offensive, such as their alleged use of White Phosphorus, that's not to say that their response to Hamas was unjustified. People seem to forget just exactly how World War II was finally won once and for all.

So yes, irrespective of all my ranting I do think Israel's existence is justified.

 

[Leftley]

I don't believe that Israel as it is should have been created because it was just displacing a whole bunch of other people who already lived there, imposing artificial rule upon those that were left. Palestinian villages were emptied, razed and replaced leaving hundreds of thousands to live in refugee camps because they have nothing to go back to and no way to get there.

Hmm, How do I put this...

The british promised that the Jews and Palestinians could live together in peace.
The Jews did NOT, I repeat NOT want to kick the Palestinians out in the first place.

As I said in the other thread, it's not anti-Semitic to criticise and disagree with Israel. That in particular pisses me off. The Israeli government has absolutely no right to act as it did because of the Holocaust.

While you are pretty spot on, what specifically are you refering to by "act as it did because of the Holocaust"? As far as I know Israel has only executed one person because of the Holocaust. Or if you are refering to Israel's suspect military tactics, how is it evident that the Holocaust is behind that?

 

[Sayvara]

Totally moot question. The country is there now. We cannot ask it to go away. So play nice now kids...

/S

 

[Combined]

No.

Essentially, coming over and taking a load of land a attacking everyone with a measure of fanaticism for an idea of Israel does not a good impression make. Neither does removing original inhabitants and deporting them outside. A state of Israel CAN exist and I will not debate that, but they first should learn to play nice with everyone and, for everyone's sake, stop blaming everyone with anti-Semitism.

They may be a nation which is, more or less, legal, but that doesn't mean that they have ANY jurisdiction or power on other nations. Let us be called Nazi's if they'll lower themselves to calling us so. They need to reform their entire society and behaviour to a point where they will start to behave nicer and agree with others. Maybe we can avoid all the wars then.

Naturally, Palestinians aren't particularly good either, but that doesn't mean you can just move in and make a nation.

 

[Ghostkai]

I'm sure Iran is willing to answer this question with action in the next few years.

 

[Leftley]

No.

Essentially, coming over and taking a load of land a attacking everyone with a measure of fanaticism for an idea of Israel does not a good impression make. Neither does removing original inhabitants and deporting them outside. A state of Israel CAN exist and I will not debate that, but they first should learn to play nice with everyone and, for everyone's sake, stop blaming everyone with anti-Semitism.

They may be a nation which is, more or less, legal, but that doesn't mean that they have ANY jurisdiction or power on other nations. Let us be called Nazi's if they'll lower themselves to calling us so. They need to reform their entire society and behaviour to a point where they will start to behave nicer and agree with others. Maybe we can avoid all the wars then.

Naturally, Palestinians aren't particularly good either, but that doesn't mean you can just move in and make a nation.

They were expelled from a number of different countries as Danzorz previously said, and in accordance with Zionism they returned to the Holy Land and the UN tried to mediate an agreement with the Arabs so that every had a fair and equitable solution. The Arabs disagreed and persecuted and attacked the Israelis ever since. Just because Israel started the Six Day War in response to 3 countries amassing troops on the border after having called for the nation's destruction, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the Israelis that need to learn how to 'play nice'. Since then various Arab nations have launched attacks on Israel, not to mention the actions of Hamas.

 

[cainx10a]

It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them. Being f***ed over does not mean you can spread the hate around by doing it to other people.

Good point. But I think it's pointless to argue whether or not Israel's existence is justified. We are in 2009, how long are we going to keep babbling about justifications when we need solutions that doesn't amount to bomb the other party to the stone age.

 

[Powerman88]

The thing is with Israel is that, despite its origins, it is the ONLY FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Let me say that again. ISRAEL IS THE ONLY FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. I have had the pleasure to spend some time in my life in Israel, Jordan, and Syria and guess what; the rest of the Middle East is kind of a lousy, barren desert. The reason Israel is as nice and technologically developed is because of it's culture. The Jews, Muslims, and Christians in Israel all want to work together to prosper and live a high quality of life for everyone, regardless of religion, gender, or sexual preference.

The Palestinians, Syrians, and Iranians have a culture of hatred and wish to spread an oppressive theocracy throughout the land. Guess what guys, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PRACTICING MUSLIMS IN ISRAEL THAT ARE HAPPY AND LIVE IN PEACE. There is even a Muslim party in the Israeli parliament that represents Muslim interests. Hamas is regarded as a terrorist group by the US and the EU. You can NOT give them any legitimacy. If there was only support for Fatah in Palestine there would already be a 2 state solution with Palestinians and Israeli's living side by side in peace. The problem is Hamas wants to destroy ALL Jews worldwide as the will of Allah. People who openly call for genocide aren't people ANYONE should support.

The sad fact is that since the beginning of recorded history it has always been trendy to hate on Jews. It has always been the big bad Jews oppressing everyone. The reason that Judaism has always prevailed as a culture is because it focuses on education and understanding, not hatred and assimilation. That is why, despite being surrounded by enemies, Israel is the most prosperous country in the Middle East. That is why Jews survived the Spanish inquisition. That is why the Jews survived the Roman occupation circa New Testament times. That is why the Jews survived the Philistines. I could go on.

So stop hating on Israel. It is a positive beacon of hope for EVERYONE in the world, not just Jews.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them. Being f***ed over does not mean you can spread the hate around by doing it to other people.

Good point. But I think it's pointless to argue whether or not Israel's existence is justified. We are in 2009, how long are we going to keep babbling about justifications when we need solutions that doesn't amount to bomb the other party to the stone age.

But there aren't any solutions, Israel has the money and top military technologies and Hamas has an endless amount of young idealistic men willing to die for this cause.

Unless they both somehow decide to make peace, this conflict isn't ending any time soon.

 

[cainx10a]

The thing is with Israel is that, despite its origins, it is the ONLY FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Let me say that again. ISRAEL IS THE ONLY FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. I have had the pleasure to spend some time in my life in Israel, Jordan, and Syria and guess what; the rest of the Middle East is kind of a lousy, barren desert. The reason Israel is as nice and technologically developed is because of it's culture. The Jews, Muslims, and Christians in Israel all want to work together to prosper and live a high quality of life for everyone, regardless of religion, gender, or sexual preference.

The Palestinians, Syrians, and Iranians have a culture of hatred and wish to spread an oppressive theocracy throughout the land. Guess what guys, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PRACTICING MUSLIMS IN ISRAEL THAT ARE HAPPY AND LIVE IN PEACE. There is even a Muslim party in the Israeli parliament that represents Muslim interests. Hamas is regarded as a terrorist group by the US and the EU. You can NOT give them any legitimacy. If there was only support for Fatah in Palestine there would already be a 2 state solution with Palestinians and Israeli's living side by side in peace. The problem is Hamas wants to destroy ALL Jews worldwide as the will of Allah. People who openly call for genocide aren't people ANYONE should support.

The sad fact is that since the beginning of recorded history it has always been trendy to hate on Jews. It has always been the big bad Jews oppressing everyone. The reason that Judaism has always prevailed as a culture is because it focuses on education and understanding, not hatred and assimilation. That is why, despite being surrounded by enemies, Israel is the most prosperous country in the Middle East. That is why Jews survived the Spanish inquisition. That is why the Jews survived the Roman occupation circa New Testament times. That is why the Jews survived the Philistines. I could go on.

So stop hating on Israel. It is a positive beacon of hope for EVERYONE in the world, not just Jews.

That's the kind of propaganda I love not to hear. The only functioning democracy . Never gets old. Freedom, Democracy, Freedom Fries, Bomb Bomb Arab. I like.

 

[Nazulu]

Palestinians did fuck all with the land and thats why the jews were given that land. Now they have made it a place worth living the Palestinians want it back now! After all the shit the jews have and keep going through I couldn't give 2 peices of shit about the greedy extremist muslims.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Palestinians did fuck all with the land and thats why the jews were given that land. Now they have made it a place worth living and the Palestinians want it back now! After all the shit the jews have and keep going through I couldn't give 2 peices of shit about the greedy extremist muslims.

No really, WTF are you talking about?

 

[Nazulu]

Palestinians did fuck all with the land and thats why the jews were given that land. Now they have made it a place worth living and the Palestinians want it back now! After all the shit the jews have and keep going through I couldn't give 2 peices of shit about the greedy extremist muslims.

No really, WTF are you talking about?

Figure it out.

 

[cainx10a]

It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them. Being f***ed over does not mean you can spread the hate around by doing it to other people.

Good point. But I think it's pointless to argue whether or not Israel's existence is justified. We are in 2009, how long are we going to keep babbling about justifications when we need solutions that doesn't amount to bomb the other party to the stone age.

But there aren't any solutions, Israel has the money and top military technologies and Hamas has an endless amount of young idealistic men willing to die for this cause.

Unless they both somehow decide to make peace, this conflict isn't ending any time soon.

Oh there are solutions.

1. Peace sells, but who is buying? [http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/16/palestinian.wall.graffiti/index.html]
I think it's naive to think we can't help these two races talk to each other. The new generation need to become targets of peaceful talks. They are the one that can and will lead their countries in the long run. I think it's important to target those same "idealistic" or "desperate" young men with message of change.

2. UN/US Assisted AID To Palestinians

3. More restriction imposed by the US on Israel use of force on Palestinians and if need be, find a way to improve Israel defense capabilities against those useless rockets that HAMAS seem to love as much as I hate fireworks.


Edit: I am no middle-eastern expert, I may be a little bit "self-righteous" (or so I have been told), a little bit gullible (as my point of views on a lot of stuff changes faster before I can make up my own mind about it), but goddamnit, what the hell are those "middle-eastern degree" courses for, if people can't come up with peaceful solutions?