Poll: It's really time to stop supporting Blizzard

[TinariKao]

Ahh. Anyone here old enough to remember when you bought a game, you owned that copy of the game to do with what you want?

I remember those days.

 

[Tears of Blood]

Dude I don't have anything to do with Blizzard or its games, but I will say that Cheating is down right stupid. I feel the reason why they are doing it is mainly because it runs the possibility to be exploited into the online segments of the game, and the last thing we need is more Cheaters online.

I get my fair share of cheating bastards in Metal Gear Online all the time with their MAO Programs and Lagswitching dumbasses.

Any game that has an online segment probably shouldn't be hacked even in single player.

First of all, MGO is awesome.

Second, that's fucking stupid. You pay $60 for a game, you can do whatever you want with it in the single player.

Hell, I would almost say you should be able to do whatever you want in multiplayer too! It's just a game, why would anyone care if someone is cheating? There is no money at stake, it's not like it's SRS BZNZ. So what if someone wants to cheat their way up the leaderboards? Let 'em. In fact, why don't you just do it too if you care that much? If you seriously don't like cheating, then don't play with cheaters. Leave the game when they show up. It's not a big deal.

Basically, this is the only thing that works this way. There are absolutely no other forms of domestic entertainment where you are not allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it, besides copy and redistribute. There isn't even a discussion! It shouldn't be legal to make EULAs with such content.

 

[Slick Samurai]

Super Snip!

I believe what everyone is angry about is not that they are cheating in singleplayer, but that they are earning achievements (and by extension portraits and emblems) that are reserved for people who do it legit.

The current Blizzard cheat system works exactly how the 3rd party cheat system works, but it turns off achievements when you're doing it. The people using the 3rd party cheat systems are in NO way doing it for fun, rather for achievements and portraits to show off online. Basically, they're exploiting the ToA and the system by using 3rd party cheat programs.

 

[JoeThree]

Since we're talking about Blizzard, let me put this in the best "WoW talk" terminology possible: QQ more.

 

[Bon_Clay]

Ahh. Anyone here old enough to remember when you bought a game, you owned that copy of the game to do with what you want?

I remember those days.

Those were the fucking days.

I don't like the direction the company is going, but I've been waiting for Diablo 3 for too damn long now. I needs it. If they tried to do something like charge a subscription for it there would definitely be some murdering going on at their headquarters though. I don't want to play fucking WoW, I want a god damn updated Diablo game without any unnecessary bullshit or hoops to jump through.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

The EULA is, at all times, on blizzard.com through this link: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/termsofuse.html . There is no reason you cannot read that before purchasing a game, especially one that requires you to register online to use it.

I'd also like to know which ISPs negotiate their contracts, if only because I'm betting they're piddley little third-party providers. I live in Canada and all of that is directed by the CRTC, so I'm no buff on American law, for sure, but like I said, third-party providers are granted some leeway because of their small status within a large market. However, I do know that once you hit that little button, all claims are final and that's the same with any contract. As I mentioned above, you have plenty of time to read over Blizzard's ToS before buying any game. The fact that it's non-neotiable is moot as you know that going in.

Now, I never said it wasn't rediculous in the sense of a car, I'm simply saying that that is the reality of it. Blizzard has said you cannot cheat while using their game unless it's their cheat codes, so you can't do that. It's not a violation of your rights because you agree to it by playing the game. Forcing you to disconnect your internet/water/electricity only 30 days after you call is legal because you agreed to it by using the service provided. Tough luck. The bigger issue here is copywrite infringement, as you are changing the base code of what that game is and effectively modifying it from its original intent. Blizzard does have grounds here, whether you like to admit that or not.

That being said, they have plenty of justification. They've told people not to cheat and they did it anyway. It's like saying "Don't take any cookies from the cookie jar" and expecting not to get your hand slapped when your God damn arm is half way in! Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "lalala" doesn't make that simple fact go away. You don't like it? Don't play their games. It's not a difficult concept.

As said before, this is treading grounds of copywrite infringement on their product. They are modifying the base code of the game to work differently. If games are art, this is like changing a few words in a book with a Thesaurus and saying it's enough of the same thing to still be the same. It's wrong! There is no integrity in doing this sort of thing! You own the right to play the game as it was made, not as you see fit! That is how it has always been and only recently have people begun to tell the creators that they're wrong! They cannot be wrong about something they created!

In short, people are crying over spilt milk because they did something they knew was wrong and someone finally called them out on it. Too bad, so sad, stop hacking.

 

[Enkidu88]

There's a huge difference between changing the source code to boost yourself in some way, shape or form when cheat codes are readily available, and using a game's engine to make something creative and enriching to the community. Where as trainers have the potential to destroy what Blizzard has fought to keep (a fair playing environment), mods, campaign editing and using built-in cheat codes certain fall within the silly and fun loving mentality that most Blizzard games promote.

Just like in law, you can't allow yourself to only see this as an isolated case applicable only to Blizzard, by doing this Blizzard has set a dangerous precedent. Okay, Blizzard offers in game cheat codes, that's great and if they're the only ones to ban singeplayer trainers then I can probably live with it. The problem is other companies will now be looking at what happens here and taking note. If everyone accepts this without protest there is the very real possibility that they too will start taking action against singleplayer cheaters. Some of those companies won't offer in-game cheats, leaving trainers the only option.

Take for instance the upcoming Shogun II: Total War from Creative Assembly. They've already stated that there will be no mod tools included, or any kind of mod support whatsoever. They're previous game, Empire, didn't feature cheat codes and Shogun II will most likely follow suit. If they ban people for using singleplayer trainers in that game, there is no other option. There is no other way to cheat without altering the code. Gameover.

So what? Cheaters don't buy the game. Well, unfortunately, judging by Cheat Happens success in building an entire business in the realm of cheating, cheaters constitute more than just a small portion of the gaming community. They stop buying the games and the industry as a whole will start suffering financial losses. Or Someone with either legal expertise or the money to hire an entire team of lawyers, will eventually lay down a huge lawsuit on one the game companies over the EULA. While I am sort of hoping for the second option to occur, it would still mean a company taking a huge financial hit and as a lover of games I'd rather see that money go toward making new and better games.

 

[Jewrean]

Yeah, looks like a dick move on Blizzards part. But 4.0.1 is coming out today. So that's a no dice.

By that logic people who mod their Xboxs so that they can hack their Single-Player games to rack up achievements easily are complete Angels. Yeah good job making sense there.

 

[Chewster]

Modding has always, legally, been against the law. If any company really felt like it, they could go and shutdown every copy of every game that ever used a mod under copywrite infringement. There are certain exceptions, such as the open source Unreal Engine. So long as the game runs off that, you're good to go. The uniqueness of the situation at hand comes in when you realise Blizzard has already given permission to players to use all those tools that are copywritten as long as it's within their editor. There's no need to go and throw trainers around when Blizzard is already giving you the go-ahead to muck about with all the campaign maps yourself, which is why this whole argument about "trainers being ok" seems fishy.

So basically, people are allowed to play, but on their terms strictly. So in reality, it is a limited sort of freedom, as a level editor is not the same as being able to freely mod. It may be similar, but it is much more limited. I can appreciate that they do include level editors, but a tool for use within their specific limits is not proper freedom if you ask me.

And yes, I know that modding is (usually) against the law. For the last fucking time, I'm not arguing against the legality of any of this. What I am saying is that it is troubling that an industry that used to praise experimentation and creativity, now seeks to limit it in certain ways (legal or not, I really don't care at this point as the law is not infallible anyhow).

The second example you used was Machinima, which can never be touched. Again, going back to copywrite law, it falls under satire. Any machinima using an in-game engine is always going to be sitirical of the original project and thus nothing can be done about it. Blizzard generally encourages these sorts of creative out-bursts by the community, which is alos a plus, but the bottom line is that because it's a mock presentation of what has been copywritten, it is exempt from copywrite laws.

I know machinima is legal (again, I'm not even talking about these things from a legal standpoint, I'm not sure it is relevant), but who is willing to fight comes down to who has the coin. Activist and lawyer Lawrence Lessig has talked about groups that have used copyrighted material in a fair use way, but who still had to contend with the fact that fighting these sorts of fights in court, even when you are right, costs absurd amounts of cash and that those holding the copyright wouldn't grant them permission to use the material, even though they were legally allowed. Unfortunate, but that is the way it is sometimes. (link to his book, if you're interested (it is mostly about copyright): http://www.free-culture.cc/freecontent/).

Blizzard could easily throw their weight around and stop that sort of stuff from happening if they really wanted. Who is going to fight them in court? You? Me? I don't have a dime to my name and most other gamers probably don't have as many lawyers on retainer as Blizzard does.

Now can we please get away from the legal aspects of this discussion? Please?

There's a huge difference between changing the source code to boost yourself in some way, shape or form when cheat codes are readily available, and using a game's engine to make something creative and enriching to the community. Where as trainers have the potential to destroy what Blizzard has fought to keep (a fair playing environment), mods, campaign editing and using built-in cheat codes certain fall within the silly and fun loving mentality that most Blizzard games promote.

Trainers certainly have the ability to do that in the multi player realm. Which is why I find it odd that they are doing it to those using it in single player. What relevance does mucking around in the single player using a trainer have on the multi player? Aside from the achievements, which can be disabled, what advantage does a trainer grant in the multi player world, if people can't use them there anyway?

 

[The Cheezy One]

This initially concerned me, until i realised that this isnt cheating like in WC3, where you type in the relevant code, this will be something like going into the code and making build times half a second or pumping attack.

See the first posters post
Not going to quote him, on account of hes probably been quoted about 40 times

 

[Booze Zombie]

I don't get how Blizzard can really justify perma-banning people for minding their own business... I shall be honest.
They are clearly money-grubbing, but is there a whole lot we can do? I'm not sure.

 

[Enkidu88]

The EULA is, at all times, on blizzard.com through this link: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/termsofuse.html. There is no reason you cannot read that before purchasing a game, especially one that requires you to register online to use it.

I'd also like to know which ISPs negotiate their contracts, if only because I'm betting they're piddley little third-party providers. I live in Canada and all of that is directed by the CRTC, so I'm no buff on American law, for sure, but like I said, third-party providers are granted some leeway because of their small status within a large market. However, I do know that once you hit that little button, all claims are final and that's the same with any contract. As I mentioned above, you have plenty of time to read over Blizzard's ToS before buying any game. The fact that it's non-neotiable is moot as you know that going in.

Now, I never said it wasn't rediculous in the sense of a car, I'm simply saying that that is the reality of it. Blizzard has said you cannot cheat while using their game unless it's their cheat codes, so you can't do that. It's not a violation of your rights because you agree to it by playing the game. Forcing you to disconnect your internet/water/electricity only 30 days after you call is legal because you agreed to it by using the service provided. Tough luck. The bigger issue here is copywrite infringement, as you are changing the base code of what that game is and effectively modifying it from its original intent. Blizzard does have grounds here, whether you like to admit that or not.

That being said, they have plenty of justification. They've told people not to cheat and they did it anyway. It's like saying "Don't take any cookies from the cookie jar" and expecting not to get your hand slapped when your God damn arm is half way in! Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "lalala" doesn't make that simple fact go away. You don't like it? Don't play their games. It's not a difficult concept.

As said before, this is treading grounds of copywrite infringement on their product. They are modifying the base code of the game to work differently. If games are art, this is like changing a few words in a book with a Thesaurus and saying it's enough of the same thing to still be the same. It's wrong! There is no integrity in doing this sort of thing! You own the right to play the game as it was made, not as you see fit! That is how it has always been and only recently have people begun to tell the creators that they're wrong! They cannot be wrong about something they created!

In short, people are crying over spilt milk because they did something they knew was wrong and someone finally called them out on it. Too bad, so sad, stop hacking.

Let's not dive into the pools of hate and bitterness here shall we? We were having a perfectly rational argument, no need to go all snarky. Though if I'm misreading your post, which often happens with me, and there's no actual hostility you can ignore this first paragraph .

Well I'm in America so I have no idea what the CRTC is or what your laws are. But yes, sometimes you can only negotiate with the piddly little independent ISPs, though I've known some people who've managed to talk themselves into better deals with the big companies. Anyway, the point is, even if you can't negotiate you still have the right to read the contract before making purchase. It's not sufficient for them to say well our contract and conditions are clearly stated at this website. No, your in front of a person who explains the contents of the contract, you can have a lawyer present if you wish and if you don't like what it says you can walk away.

Obviously for video games operating in such a way would be infeasible, but really ask yourself why do they even need an EULA? Copyright laws, patent infringement laws, and outright criminal theft are all covered under the law. Even if EULA's never existed no one would be able to just pick it up, repackage it and sell it as their own product. In the privacy of my own home I can take the works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and scratch out his name and put my own, but if I tried to sell it it would be illegal. The same would be true with video games.

EULA's are nothing more than trying to force the buyer into obscene terms and conditions that any lawyer would advise against. EULA's also state you can't sell the game again, but a court already decided on the second-sell rights already (I'll try to find the ruling) and was struck down. The EULA's still say it, but that doesn't stop Ebay from being filled with used games, nor do they pursue these people legally.

Edit: Also, if it's my cookie jar, I can have my whole arm inside it if I want to. I can stuff my head inside and eat out all the cookies like that if I like. I can wear it as a hat if I like.

 

[Nylis]

Uhm, it's not blizzard's fault noone read the fucking user agreement forum. Tough luck. their fault, move on

Oh please, everyone knows user agreements are just there to make everything LOOK professional.

No... It is there to stop company from getting in legal issues, or give them the upper hand in legal issues.

Sigh...apparently I'm going to have to start spelling out when I'm being sarcastic.

 

[OldAccount]

While I do agree that banning someone for using single-player-only cheats is a bad thing, I'm going to be blunt and say that you're completely overreacting.

Here's what's most likely going on: Blizzard's system is designed to detect programs that function as exploits (a trainer falls under this qualification). Because of this, the system automatically flags the account using said trainer, and is automatically suspended. Frustrating, arguably wrong, but understandable.

What Blizzard should do here is change the detection system to look for exploits ONLY for online servers, while letting SP gamers do their thing.

This is certainly no reason to stop supporting Blizzard. Worse comes to worse, beat the game the old fashioned way; by the rules.

Completely agree. I'm not a PC gamer so I wont be playing Blizzard games anyway but Bungee has been laying down similar banhammers and you don't see me boycotting Halo: Reach.

 

[Zing]

Yeah, looks like a dick move on Blizzards part. But 4.0.1 is coming out today. So that's a no dice.

By that logic people who mod their Xboxs so that they can hack their Single-Player games to rack up achievements easily are complete Angels. Yeah good job making sense there.

Who gives a toss about achievements anyway?

 

[00slash00]

http://www.cheathappens.com/article_blizzardbans.asp
I'm sure you all have seen this by now but for those of you who haven't get a look at what those bastards are trying to get away with now. I'm calling for an escapist wide boycott on everything Blizzard.

Now, WHO'S WITH ME!!!

thats a really weird and pointless thing for blizzard to do...

i do still need diablo 3 but i dont play wow or anything and im sure diablo 3 wont be coming out until late 2045 so im not exactly boycotting them but they arent making any money off me, thats for sure

 

[Korroth Dyahwanre]

Why release Lord of the Rings as a trilogy (+1) as books when you can just take the extra time to release one for an epic journey. At the end of #2 the story was still unresolved, etc.

Because some people like myself would rather a book around 350ish pages in their hands rather then a 1500 page brick.

Some people would prefer three 10 hour campaigns (more with replay value) than a giant 30 hour brick.

LoL I totally don't disagree with you

But there IS publication of Lord O' Teh Ringz as one book. It's green with a picture of Gandalf in the woods on the front cover. I own one. It's right here, next to my bed. Here, I'll even look at the back page and tell you how high the numbers go.

1137 pages. That includes the 3 books, 103 pages of appendices and a 24 page index. but DOESN'T include the 11 pages of maps, or the 28 pages on notes about the story.

It's big and heavy, about the size of two bricks and the weight of one.

So, myth busted.

You proved nothing other then the make wrong mentality of assholes everywhere, and missed the point of our banter. Further more how much did you pay for that brick? I only paid $10 for all three much easier to hold much less likely to get destroyed copies, that include everything you lack. So how exactly is the Myth busted?

 

[Lucifron]

If people would RTFM, this wouldn't have happened. Surely it hasn't gone over anyone's head just how much of a licensed based product SC2 is? Cheat on a pirated version of the game if you have those urges.

This is old news, and it's not enough to discourage me from playing some of the best games in world.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

Just like in law, you can't allow yourself to only see this as an isolated case applicable only to Blizzard

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what law is based upon; citing different cases and their rulings and draw comparisons to reason with the jury that the ruling should be similar. But do go on...

by doing this Blizzard has set a dangerous precedent. Okay, Blizzard offers in game cheat codes, that's great and if they're the only ones to ban singeplayer trainers then I can probably live with it. The problem is other companies will now be looking at what happens here and taking note. If everyone accepts this without protest there is the very real possibility that they too will start taking action against singleplayer cheaters. Some of those companies won't offer in-game cheats, leaving trainers the only option.

No, Blizzard stood up for themselves and their community when they were in the right. They've stopped cheaters who are using a very perilous and easily exploitable third-party cheating system after handing out all the tools players needed to cheat anyway. The player base slapped them in the face and scoffed at them, so Blizzard dropped the hammer and told them that they went too far this time. Now the kids are crying because they didn't expect it? Please...

Take for instance the upcoming Shogun II: Total War from Creative Assembly. They've already stated that there will be no mod tools included, or any kind of mod support whatsoever. They're previous game, Empire, didn't feature cheat codes and Shogun II will most likely follow suit. If they ban people for using singleplayer trainers in that game, there is no other option. There is no other way to cheat without altering the code. Gameover.

For one, I believe I've already said this once, but I'll say it again in quotation:

You own the right to play the game as it was made, not as you see fit! That is how it has always been and only recently have people begun to tell the creators that they're wrong! They cannot be wrong about something they created!

So as you can see, it's easy to see where this is coming from. You don't own the story within the book and have the ability to edit it as you please, you own the right to read it, as it had been written. You don't own the ability to copy and edit the movie you just bought, you own the ability to watch it whenever you wish, as it was made. You don't own the ability to modify the game mechanics as you see fit, you own the ability to play that game as it had been programed!

But even I like a good mod once in awhile. When a game has no modding capabilities, nor cheating capabilities, then you have to start questioning how ethical it is to demonize your player base for doing so by themselves. Yes, companies have full rights to say it's wrong, even if they don't have the full selection of backed up arguments that Blizzard has, but as time has proven, the less modding capabilities a game has inbred into it, the less developers tend to care if you use third-party software to modify something.

The issue at hand, however, is that Blizzard has handed out modification tools and cheat codes and people are still using trainers, which leads to the obvious conclusion of "they're getting something else out of this..." That's what's wrong with all of this!

 

[SleeperAwake]

THEY KILLED METAL ARMS!!!!


I cry at night...