Poll: Japanese or Western Mecha?

[Ollie Barder]

...are those Macross Valkyries fighting Char?

Yes, that's the wonder of the three Another Century's Episode games, of which that is the unfortunate last. Close to 40 years of real robot mecha high fiving for the win and it's a huge amount of fun, though that's hardly surprising as the games were developed by From Software (you can play that mission wth any mecha obviously, I just happen to like Valkyries). Here are a few more videos, I obviously thoroughly recommend the games!







I'm playing in all those videos in case you're wondering.

Well Barder, you put me in an awkward position... How can I refute that something is based off of bits and pieces of multiple designs when A) you don't even list what the contributing sources were, B) ultimately you can find similarities between any two mecha regardless of if it was a copy or two completely unrelated creations, and C) the original Battlemechs were a licensed use of a Japanese Mecha, so any and every Battlemech made since could be argued as derived from the Japanese originals.

But being based off Japanese designs doesn't make it any less a Western product, and unless you can show some J-Mecha that resembles (and pre-dates, that's the important part) the Atlas sufficiently, I stand by the Atlas being 100% Battletech original.

The J-Mecha influenced designs would be the ones derived from the Japanese Original ones I listed before. The Timberwolf (Madcat) is a hybrid of the Marauder (Japanese) and Catapult (Western). The Summoner is very much the Clan rebuild of a Thunderbolt, and the Hellbringer a Clan-style Warhammer. And some older Inner Sphere designs such as the Commando, Hermes, or Clint do follow a very J-Mecha style which can be attributed to some influence from the original Harmony Gold designs. Then there is of course the Draconis Combine, a JAPANESE nation in Battletech, who's iconic style closely mimics Mecha styles like Voltron, Gekiganger, etc...

So no, I am not denying there isn't some style influence and a couple direct uses of Japanese designs. But you can only argue something as being a Japanese mech unless there is actually a mecha out there it was based on. Actually based on, not just similarities. And so there's some Japanese influence, it's still western. The same way my Toyota Matrix is a Japanese style vehicle, even though someone can argue all cars are American because Henry Ford produced the first mass-production automobile. My Matrix shares many similarities with the Model T... Four wheels, a steering wheel, seats, etc... So if all Battlemechs are Japanese, not Western, then all cars are American. And all airplanes too.

The original Bigfoot [http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Atlas_%28BattleMech%29] (though the latter to a lesser extent). Specifically, the legs, chest and arms of the Atlas were taken from these three designs. The head, whilst similarly hemispherical, was the only major part to visually deviate as it was made to look like a skull instead of a simple bubble canopy. All these designs and the series itself pre-date Battletech as Dougram was aired from 23rd October 1981 to 25th March 1983, whereas Battletech was published in 1984. Whilst there are many literal copies of various well known anime mecha designs in Battletech, there are an even greater number that were - like the Atlas - hacked together from a variety of disparate designs. These too were part of the, wholly justified, legal wrangling that ensued in the mid-80's.

Battletech is also the tip of the rip-off iceberg, as Western sources have been literally copying the Eastern methodology for decades.

The point I keep on making is that whilst you can manufacture a Western mecha design, the influences are still very much Eastern in origin. Which, in light of the poll heading this thread, is very much relevant. As determining a favourite type of design is entirely pointless when effectively both selections are the same (as one is clearly derived from the other).

My issue is that this is kind of nonsense is a form of cultural bigotry that limits creative progression, as many "Western" looking designs are actually dated counterparts to Japanese originals - as Macross, for example, has evolved far beyond its simple early 80's roots, yet Robotech still doggedly adheres to the same design conventions (almost blindly in fact). Instead of admitting where the obvious influences stem from and then subsequently learning from them and creating something new, Western mecha design has effectively ceased in terms of its evolution.

I'm not saying that we can't design mecha but that we're still pumping out derivative crap, circa Japan's real robot boom from the 80's.

 

[John Funk]

Really, it all seems a bit silly to be arguing over the design of the Atlas when it doesn't give its creators many points at all, being ugly as sin

 

[messy]

I would go with the Japanese, just because they have Gurren Laggans.

well the sunglasses are awesome

But I used to watch gundam all the time as a kid so I have to go with that

 

[Rolling Thunder]

@CantFaketheFunk : Okay, I get it, you're something of a japanophile (at least in mecha terms). Cool. But please, stop haranguing the western mech design on aesthetic basis. I understand you don't like it. I get you don't like the slow, ponderous, quasi-believeable style of battletech/Titans/etc.

Personally, I don't like the Japanese design. I think it stems from the absurd Japanese concept that mobility is the be-all and end-all of warfare. I think it stems from an inability in Japanese art forms to properly articulate a hero's power in purely human terms without making him, in a word, inhuman - be it super-powers or a giant robot. I think Gundams look like Disney on Ice with flashing laser beams and pew-pew explosions. I played through both Zone of the Enders, laughing mockingly as somehow, the best explanation that came up for one set of mechs being better or worse was their implicit 'greater awesomesaucesmness'. I got wearied by the tiresome, energy-ball dynamics, and began wishing for the solid, heavy sound of a Gauss rifle firing and smashing open armour plate.

I got bored of the silly, teenaged plots, and, ironically, began longing for the brutish simplicity of 'this is war, gentlemen.'

So, yes. It's a clash of aesthetics.

 

[John Funk]

@CantFaketheFunk : Okay, I get it, you're something of a japanophile (at least in mecha terms). Cool. But please, stop haranguing the western mech design on aesthetic basis. I understand you don't like it. I get you don't like the slow, ponderous, quasi-believeable style of battletech/Titans/etc.

Slow and ponderous nothing. These things are ugly.

I like the AT-AT. I like the Timberwolf/Madcat. I like the power armor of Exosquad. There are cool-looking mecha that fall into the "Western style." But the vast majority of them are not. The reason I like these is because regardless of design origin, they all feel like they had an amount of thought and creativity put into the design. Whereas most of the Battletech stuff just looks like boxes piled atop one another in a vague human shape, with guns just haphazardly thrown onto the frame.

(BTW, nothing quasi-believable about a giant mech with a cathedral on its back )

Personally, I don't like the Japanese design. I think it stems from the absurd Japanese concept that mobility is the be-all and end-all of warfare.

Counterpoint one: Big Zam [http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/Gundam/msgundam/ma-08.jpg].

Counterpoint two: Heavyarms Custom [http://www.ipmslondon.ca/old%20site/ipmslondon.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/harms_coll2.jpg].

Counterpoint three: Virtue [http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs30/f/2008/063/7/d/Gundam00__Virtue_Wallpaper_by_anime102004.jpg].

All of these trade mobility for the raw "MORE DAKKA" style of combat. All three of these look way, way more interesting than 99% of Western designs that boil down to "oh hay, let's put some more guns on this thing's square chest." (Well, maybe not the Big Zam...)

I think it stems from an inability in Japanese art forms to properly articulate a hero's power in purely human terms without making him, in a word, inhuman - be it super-powers or a giant robot. I think Gundams look like Disney on Ice with flashing laser beams and pew-pew explosions. I played through both Zone of the Enders, laughing mockingly as somehow, the best explanation that came up for one set of mechs being better or worse was their implicit 'greater awesomesaucesmness'. I got wearied by the tiresome, energy-ball dynamics, and began wishing for the solid, heavy sound of a Gauss rifle firing and smashing open armour plate.

I got bored of the silly, teenaged plots, and, ironically, began longing for the brutish simplicity of 'this is war, gentlemen.'

So, yes. It's a clash of aesthetics.

First of all, I'm actually surprised at that first point you're trying to make. Are you really saying that in the same context of Warhammer bloody 40k, with their superhuman Space Marines that live five hundred years, have forty-eight redundant organs etc? Look at every single superhero comic out there and tell me that those are human heroes.

I think you're really just arguing out of ignorance with the genre and some strange sort of cultural bias.

Trying to argue based on reality is a silly argument because none of them are realistic in the first place. Given a choice between between two unrealistic things, one of which has slick, well-choreographed combat that's interesting to watch and one of which essentially boils down to two mobile platforms just shooting guns at each other, I'm going to choose the entertaining one any day of the week.

A few pages back, I asked for an example of Western mecha combat that was interesting to watch. No one posted a single thing, so what am I supposed to think of that?

The young pilots are something that I'm not too fond of myself (but that's why we have the Ramba Rals and Sergei Smirnovs) but I'd take that any day over GRIMDARK THERE IS ONLY WARRRR.

(Plus, just for the record, I've only been arguing using one franchise. Granted, it's the most famous mecha franchise there is, but the rabbit hole goes so much deeper than just Gundam. Want realism? Patlabor or VOTOMs. Whereas there's nothing I'm familiar with in the Western style that fills the "actually entertaining to watch in combat" genre).

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Have another.

Sweeeeeet... So much potential for a spinoff. Some cross dimensional mumbo jumbo and you've got yourself a series.

Any other images like this? Doesn't have to be TTGL or Megas, just crossovers in general.

 

[Arisato-kun]

Japan has Gurren Lagann and therefore is required to win by default.

But since it's being argued that Gurren Lagann isn't a mech let's add some more in shall we? We'll stick to Gundam.

Gundam Unit 5

Spoiler

Avalanche Exia

Spoiler

Zephyranthes Full Vernian

Spoiler

Sazabi

Spoiler

Gouf Ignited

Spoiler

Western Mech designs are just too boring for me. I'd rather go for the speed and adaptability of a mobile suit from any Gundam universe than use what's essentially a giant walking tank.

 

[John Funk]

Japan has Gurren Lagann and therefore is required to win by default.

But since it's being argued that Gurren Lagann isn't a mech let's add some more in shall we? We'll stick to Gundam.

Gundam Unit 5

Spoiler

Avalanche Exia

Spoiler

Zephyranthes Full Vernian

Spoiler

Sazabi

Spoiler

Gouf Ignited

Spoiler

Western Mech designs are just too boring for me. I'd rather go for the speed and adaptability of a mobile suit from any Gundam universe than use what's essentially a giant walking tank.

Mmm, Sazabi and Avalanche Exia...

 

[saejox]

Mech Warrior and Mech Commander games' mechs are badass, and there are logical too.

so western wins.

 

[John Funk]

Mmm, Tieren Antiaircraft.

This is how you do a proper "blocky, lots of guns" concept. It can still look good and be blocky, people.

 

[Fbuh]

I always think of this first:

Oh yes.

Is that a Robotech mech?

It could be the original Jetfire from generation 1 transformers. They used the same toy model for Jetfire that they used for the VF1 Valkyries.

I like the Japanese mecha much more that western ones. They are much neater looking.

 

[Ollie Barder]

Legs, Chest, and Arms?
Ok, you've got me on the legs, they do have some light similarities, but are far from a copy. But the arms, not even close, and neither the chest. Your Roundfacer and Bushman became the Battletech Griffin [http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com/diagrams/griffin.gif], and the Bigfoot became the Battlemaster [http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/3025%20Battlemaster1.jpg]. Those are your Japanese-based designs, and later designs may derive from that. But small similarities of style in the legs doesn't make it any less a Western design. The head, the arms, shoulders, crotch, hips, and torso are all Western. The legs only match Japanese style in that there is an extended kneecap and boxy feet. Overall, the Atlas [http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com/diagrams/atlas3025.jpg] does not look even close to anything Eastern save that it has joints and limbs in all the same places, as any humanoid object would.

Except the Atlas did fall under the legal wrangling that ensued on account of the similarities I laid out, the fact you're unable to see them isn't really relevant. Subsequently, alterations to the base Atlas design had to be made due to this - though no-one has yet to link the updated design so my point still stands; that the Atlas people prefer is actually derivative of several Japanese designs. In addition, the functional parameters that define the Atlas, and many many other Battletech designs, still stem from Dougram (as form follows function in real robot design). So on an even deeper functional level, the Atlas et al are fundamentally Japanese.

It could be the original Jetfire from generation 1 transformers. They used the same toy model for Jetfire that they used for the VF1 Valkyries.

I like the Japanese mecha much more that western ones. They are much neater looking.

The above picture is actually Hikaru's VF-1J [http://www.new-un-spacy.com/sdfmacross/vf-1j-valkyrie.htm] from the original 1982 Macross [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Super_Dimension_Fortress_Macross] TV series, which was botched together along with two other series to make Robotech a few years later.

Jetfire was based upon Hikaru's VF-1S [http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossdyrl/variant-vf-1s-strike-hikaru.htm] from the film, Do You Remember Love? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Super_Dimension_Fortress_Macross:_Do_You_Remember_Love%3F] (though Jetfire uses Super packs rather than the Strike pack seen in the film but the base colouration is what Jetfire was copied from).

The actual toy that Jetfire was copied from was a 1/55 scale Hi-Metal VF-1S Strike Valkyrie [http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/toys/_bandai_strike_vf1s.htm].

 

[Pendragon9]

Though I love all mechs equally, I must say Japanese takes the cake, and Armored Core takes the cake of cakes for me. You just don't get cooler than those robots.

Who needs Samurai style mechs when your mech can fly at 500 mph with guns flying everywhere? Not to mention most of it being IN SPACE!

 

[lenneth]

looked at first page, realised that while Megas XLR is a convincing argument, japan still wins

my thoughts from reading the title, so is this basically a choice between anime style giant robots or that steam powered spider in Wild Wild West?

 

[Fbuh]

Legs, Chest, and Arms?
Ok, you've got me on the legs, they do have some light similarities, but are far from a copy. But the arms, not even close, and neither the chest. Your Roundfacer and Bushman became the Battletech Griffin [http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com/diagrams/griffin.gif], and the Bigfoot became the Battlemaster [http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/3025%20Battlemaster1.jpg]. Those are your Japanese-based designs, and later designs may derive from that. But small similarities of style in the legs doesn't make it any less a Western design. The head, the arms, shoulders, crotch, hips, and torso are all Western. The legs only match Japanese style in that there is an extended kneecap and boxy feet. Overall, the Atlas [http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com/diagrams/atlas3025.jpg] does not look even close to anything Eastern save that it has joints and limbs in all the same places, as any humanoid object would.

Except the Atlas did fall under the legal wrangling that ensued on account of the similarities I laid out, the fact you're unable to see them isn't really relevant. Subsequently, alterations to the base Atlas design had to be made due to this - though no-one has yet to link the updated design so my point still stands; that the Atlas people prefer is actually derivative of several Japanese designs. In addition, the functional parameters that define the Atlas, and many many other Battletech designs, still stem from Dougram (as form follows function in real robot design). So on an even deeper functional level, the Atlas et al are fundamentally Japanese.

It could be the original Jetfire from generation 1 transformers. They used the same toy model for Jetfire that they used for the VF1 Valkyries.

I like the Japanese mecha much more that western ones. They are much neater looking.

The above picture is actually Hikaru's VF-1J [http://www.new-un-spacy.com/sdfmacross/vf-1j-valkyrie.htm] from the original 1982 Macross [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Super_Dimension_Fortress_Macross] TV series, which was botched together along with two other series to make Robotech a few years later.

Jetfire was based upon Hikaru's VF-1S [http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossdyrl/variant-vf-1s-strike-hikaru.htm] from the film, Do You Remember Love? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Super_Dimension_Fortress_Macross:_Do_You_Remember_Love%3F] (though Jetfire uses Super packs rather than the Strike pack seen in the film but the base colouration is what Jetfire was copied from).

The actual toy that Jetfire was copied from was a 1/55 scale Hi-Metal VF-1S Strike Valkyrie [http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/toys/_bandai_strike_vf1s.htm].

Damn, I was out nerded. I really thought I had that one, too.

 

[Grey_Focks]

I'm going to go with western, because I've yet to play a Gundam game that didn't suck. And I do love Mechwarrior, Mechcommander (I want MC3 dammit!) and even Mechassault. I'm a little curious as to why everyone thinks of the Imperium's mechs when they think of W40K mechs. I'm not gonna lie and say western mechs are more practical, or even possible, but I just don't like how 'overpowered' quite a few of the Japanese anime ones are. Remember the clusterfuck that was the second half of Code Geass? Deny it's existence all you want, won't make it go away.

And no, I didn't like the Armored Core games either.

 

[Neurowaste]

I don't like the sleek look, humanoid forms of mechs that are prevalent in Japanese anime, not that i have anything against them, I could see why people would like their look.

Personally i prefer western mechs, i like their rugged, visually un-flattering look. I think coming from Russia and always being taught utility over finesse, especially from the weapons I shoot competitively, has influenced my choice quite a bit. The Mechwarrior/Avatar/Aliens (sorry, haven't looked at much mech material) just appeal to me more for those reasons.