Poll: Jedi Elves

[Hero in a half shell]

You forget, the elves were getting stomped into the ground before those two showed up. And at Helm's Deep, the elves got downright slaughtered. Did you see any of them standing after the battle was over except for Leagolas?

The thing was, Legolas's fighting in Helms deep was still relatively realistic, he used his bow a lot and any swordfighting action was human paced and generally performed with two feet firmly on the ground.

We all remember *that* shield slide down the Helms Deep stairs because that was the most flashy, acrobatic action that Legolas performed in that battle, and it was enough to cement him as a badass because of its difficulty to perform while still being perceptively possible for a human to manage, but Legolas nails it in one go.

In the Hobbit 2 he does the same sliding on an object what... 3 or 4 times? but we barely even realise it because it's wedged in between his triple somersaults, random flips, superfast swordsmanship ability and balancing on heads while all around him Elves and Dwarves cut down enemies at triple speed with moves more suited to figure skaters than warriors. There are no defining impressive feat moments like the stair sliding, because it's just a constant stream of impossible skill.

The fight scenes have lost their human relatability, as we are watching these warriors jump about and casually perform impossible feats. In the LOTR movies Legolas and Gimli fought like an incredibly highly skilled human. Their weapons moved at the same speed as mens, their acrobatics were conceivably possible by a trained man (up until the Pelenor fields Oliphants scenes anyway), they fought and moved with limits.

In the Hobbit they fight like Neo from the Matrix. They fight impossibly fast, hit impossibly hard, jump impossibly far repeatedly and it just means the weight of the combat has been lost as we move from highly competent to cartoonishly competent.

 

[Thomas Barnsley]

I'll take a third option, thank you, and shame on you for not providing one.

Unrelated posts like this make it obvious to me how people can number tens of thousands of total posts.

The way I see its like this

Physical strength

Dwarves > Uruk-hai/Greater Orcs > Men > Elves > Goblins/Lesser Orcs > Hobbits

Agility

Elves > Goblins/Lesser Orcs > Men > Hobbits > Uruk-Hai/Great Orcs > Dwarves

Fighting Skill
Elves > Men > Dwarves > Uruk-Hai > Hobbits > Goblins/Lesser Orcs

Mental capacity/wisdom

Elves > Men > Dwarves > Hobbits > Uruk-Hai/Greater Orcs > Goblins/Lesser Orcs

Population
Goblins/Lesser Orcs > Uruk-Hai/Greater Orcs > Men > Elves > Hobbits > Dwarves? (Dwarven population is constantly portrayed or described as being dwindling with settlements being destroyed by dragons or forces of evil so I can only assume they are a rare race outside Erebor)

I'm probably going to be shot down by an über Tolkien fan, but I think some of those are a bit off.
For instance, I'm pretty sure dwarves have greater mental capacity than men. I'm simply basing this off the fact that the dwarves who are given the rings of power don't succumb to Sauron by becoming Nazgul. They just get lost, though the interpretation of 'lost' could vary quite a bit.
Then for fighting skill I would have put dwarves above men, but that's not really based on anything. The category is a bit vague if you don't mind me saying, it's basically an application of strength and agility.
And finally I don't know how correct this is but I thought the Uruk-hai population was really small because they had to be made from corrupt elves. But I don't know for certain with that one.
Just my opinion. Not a real Tolkien fan so don't get too excited over it.

Ok, OT: I think any action style, over the top or realistic or anywhere in between, can he good. Though I do find that over the top action tends to be done worse more often, like in the Star Wars prequels Red vs Blue, but it can also be the most interesting and generally awesome, like Pacific Rim, the Worlds End, Man of Steel and Matrix Reloaded (probably going to get crap for those last two).

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Generally, I like both, but it has to at least fit, or be justified in some manner. Like if in the Matrix everybody jumped thirty feet and dodged bullets without explaining what the hell allowed it, it'd be weird.

Like, taking high fantasy stuff, where someone can be a complete and total inhuman badass, okay, but even then you have limits.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

I think anyone thinking too hard about Legolas's fighting abilities in the Desolation of Smaug vs the fighting abilities of other characters (be they elf, man, or dwarf) should remember that Legolas was in this movie purely for the fan service, and as such, was going to be stupidly flashy. I wasn't prepared for how much, though, and was actually kind of put off by it.

I don't mind over the top action, but when it comes from a character that's there purely in service of their own fanbase, it's even more off-putting to someone that doesn't give a shit about them and never did. During the entire movie my brain kept screaming "Enough! We get it! Legolas is badass! Move on!" Honestly, the depth of his involvement and his more-showy-than-previous fight scenes almost ruined the film for me.

I like LOTR as much as the next guy, but I was always pretty neutral on Legolas. Now I'm afraid that I might hate him.

 

[LaoJim]

For instance, I used to love this video when I was a kid:

That video is awesome! I get what you are saying, whenever you are an expert (or even dedicated amateur) at something, it's portrayal in movies is always going to bug you. But for me that was a great fight-scene, one which I would enjoy if it was in a real Star Wars movie with a blue-screened planet in the background. (Apart from a few moments when they are firmly tongue-in-check). You have two fighters of roughly equal level going at it, and they both seem to be trying their hardest. It's fast enough to be exiting, but not so fast that you can't see what's going on.

Generally, I like both, but it has to at least fit, or be justified in some manner. Like if in the Matrix everybody jumped thirty feet and dodged bullets without explaining what the hell allowed it, it'd be weird.

Like, taking high fantasy stuff, where someone can be a complete and total inhuman badass, okay, but even then you have limits.

This is the thing for me. Yes Elves are described as being more agile and better archers than humans in the books. I just never got the impression from Tolkien that they were quite this amazing. One of the issues is that Elves are supposed to be basically peaceful, cultures creatures of beauty, but in the films they are these ruthlessly efficient killing machines.

The thing was, Legolas's fighting in Helms deep was still relatively realistic, he used his bow a lot and any swordfighting action was human paced and generally performed with two feet firmly on the ground.

We all remember *that* shield slide down the Helms Deep stairs because that was the most flashy, acrobatic action that Legolas performed in that battle, and it was enough to cement him as a badass because of its difficulty to perform while still being perceptively possible for a human to manage, but Legolas nails it in one go.

Actually I never really liked the Helm Deep Shield Slide. It was one of the few bum notes in the whole trilogy. It just seemed a bit too cartoonish for my liking. But in any case you're right about the Helms Deep scene, it works partly because the Human/Elf side are getting mauled and constantly forced back and back to the next barracades. Legolas might be fighting his pointy little ears off, but he still isn't going to make a dent in the horde. The problem with the Orc scenes in the Hobbit is that there is a lack of dramatic tension with the whole thing. We know that the Orcs are not going to be a serious threat for another sixty years and when they are, the Fro' is simply going to walk into Mordor.

 

[SpAc3man]

Don't forget that Legolas is potentially up to just under 2000 years old during the events. He refers to Aragorn and Gimli as children when they are around 87 and 138 years old respectively. This guy has had many many hundreds of years of defending the borders of the Greenwood elves. That is a shit load of exp.

In Tolkien's Legendarium elves like Glorfindel and Ecthelion fought against balrogs during the Fall of Gondolin. While they both died for their effort they did kill the balrogs.

Elves are total badasses.

 

[FalloutJack]

Zoop

Condescending posts like these make it obvious as to how people with low amounts of posts get alot of warnings real fast.

It was subtlety, fella. I was jokingly pointing out that I am fine with either/or. Only now you made me have to explain the joke.

 

[Thomas Barnsley]

Zoop

Condescending posts like these make it obvious as to how people with low amounts of posts get alot of warnings real fast.

It was subtlety, fella. I was jokingly pointing out that I am fine with either/or. Only now you made me have to explain the joke.

Sorry. Just came across as irrelevant when I read it.
That and the fact that I see them pretty much everywhere.
I get it now though. No harm done.

 

[LaoJim]

Don't forget that Legolas is potentially up to just under 2000 years old during the events. He refers to Aragorn and Gimli as children when they are around 87 and 138 years old respectively. This guy has had many many hundreds of years of defending the borders of the Greenwood elves. That is a shit load of exp.

In Tolkien's Legendarium elves like Glorfindel and Ecthelion fought against balrogs during the Fall of Gondolin. While they both died for their effort they did kill the balrogs.

Elves are total badasses.

I think part of the problem is that the tone of Tolkien's world shifts quite considerably. The Hobbit was written as a children's book. The LoTR's was a darker more adult fantasy, one which I think was grounded in some-kind of reality. Legolas is described as having better eye-sight than humans, lighter and faster on his feet, and a more than competent warrior, but you didn't get the idea that he was superpowered. By the time you get to the Silmarillion, Tolkien seems to be writing basically academic mythology for his world, so it's natural in those tales that you get Hercules style demi-god characters. But I'm not sure you can carry that forward to LoTR. You could also argue that the Elves in LoTR are in the process of diminishing, their time is over and they certainly should be less powerful than they once were. (Not sure that this necessarily related to their fighting-prowess, but it certainly ends up giving conflicting messages)

So while I concede that Legolas does have a lot of experience, I would argue that the film doesn't really show us any signs of wisdom in the characters. One doesn't get the sense that he is battle-hardened, it's still just a pretty boy doing stunts.

 

[Drizzitdude]

I'm probably going to be shot down by an über Tolkien fan, but I think some of those are a bit off.
For instance, I'm pretty sure dwarves have greater mental capacity than men. I'm simply basing this off the fact that the dwarves who are given the rings of power don't succumb to Sauron by becoming Nazgul. They just get lost, though the interpretation of 'lost' could vary quite a bit.
Then for fighting skill I would have put dwarves above men, but that's not really based on anything. The category is a bit vague if you don't mind me saying, it's basically an application of strength and agility.
And finally I don't know how correct this is but I thought the Uruk-hai population was really small because they had to be made from corrupt elves. But I don't know for certain with that one.
Just my opinion. Not a real Tolkien fan so don't get too excited over it.

Well let me go ahead and put my reasoning behind those choices as some of them were tough calls on my part.

When it comes to Fighting skill, I placed Men above dwarves for the simple reason that the dwarves of middle earth don't exactly use finesse as one of their strong suits. They rely on brute force tactics, tackles and wide angled attacks. So while I feel like they could do extremely well in a fight against the forces of evil, there is't exactly much 'skill' in their form of fighting. Meanwhile the men and elves are portrayed using actual swordsmanship skills and technique, they can't simply rely on body mass and overwhelming strength to stop a charging Uruk-Hai. That category was by far the one I went back to the most in my post to reconsider.

As for Mental capacity I really have to say I relied on the movies, games and other media for this one. Dwarves aren't exactly the most common race in the books and have little about their overall culture explain thoroughly from what I remember so I have to stick to the examples I have to look at. And from what I see they have a pretty big focus on drinking, killing and smithing/mining. As for the whole 'weren't corrupted by the rings thing' it had been discussed that while the dwarves did not receive the extreme detrimental effects of the rings, they did cause them to be overwhelmed by greed, establishing massive treasure troves and caring little for the world outside their mines (possibly the reason we don't see many of them?)

And finally when it comes to population it has been stated that the Uruk-Hai made up more than half of Saruman's army, using a method slightly deviated from that of Sauron's. While the method of the Uruk-Hai's creation isn't fully known. It has been suggested that they are crossbreeds between orcs and men to their size, rough features, average intelligence and sheer numbers. With this information I can safely assume that the Uruk-Hai have a larger population then the good races beings outshown only by the vermin like lesser orcs who reproduce like rats.

 

[Eamar]

While I much prefer the Lord of the Rings films to the Hobbit ones, I think I'm ok with "Jedi Elves" as you put it. I found those sequences fun, though obviously over the top, and I enjoyed watching them hugely.

[sub]That bullshit with the dragon chase/forges/molten gold, on the other hand...[/sub]

[sub][sub]Angry mutterings[/sub][/sub]

Anyway, as a dedicated Tolkien nerd I have no problem with some Elves effectively being superheroes. I mean, Fingolfin pretty much fought the Devil in single freakin' combat. Sure, it didn't work out too well for him, but he held his own for a fair while (he was beaten down three times and got back up) and managed to wound Morgoth seven times, one of which resulted in an apparently permanent injury. Again, this is an Elf fighting the equivalent of a god.

EDIT: I didn't vote in the poll because my preference entirely depends on how appropriate the action style is for the movie. Some films are meant to be over the top action fests, while others require more realism. I can enjoy both types of action equally so long as it fits with the story.

 

[Lionsfan]

Indeed, speaking as someone who has some sword fighting experience, I've seen some choreographed fights in and out of movies.

It's sort of a subtle 'can't unsee' thing, but when you see it, those superfluous movements will make you tear your eyes out.

For instance, I used to love this video when I was a kid:


Now it just irritates the hell out of me. That fight should have been over in about thirty seconds, from the moment one of them randomly decided to turn on the spot.

Not to mention when the guy in the blue shirt randomly switches to a backhanded grip. "Hmm, I'm having a lot of trouble with this guy... I know! I'll make my sword really hard to control! That'll learn 'em!"

I've never understood why they always kick their opponent when their back is turned.

STAB HIM! Your sword is about 1 pound, just stab him!

And of course this classic:

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

It all depends on what the movies universe is based on. Superman's universe is greatly different then lets say Miami Vice. It is perfectly acceptable to watch Superman eat a dozen magazines of bullets without so much as a scratch, its what he does after all.

A good example of breaking realism would be when Superman lifting a moon size ball of kryptonite, that shouldn't of been possible. If it's really bad, such as Transporter 3's crane bomb stunt, it can actually pull you out of the fantasy.

So I say stick with what you build your foundation out of when it comes to story.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, I thought they were OtT and silly. Maybe you could get away with a bit of OtT, there's a little bit of that at the end of Fellowship of the Rings, but the scene dragged on an on.

But, really, the dwarf only action bits were silly as well.