Poll: Jim Sterling Calls Out New Assassin's Creed (for racism/sexism?)

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Something Amyss

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RatherDull said:
AC Liberation: never played it so I can't say
She's also half white.

erttheking said:
Rozalia1 said:
To answer your question, yes one of the characters being black would've made him more interesting, because it would imply that the designers actually gave a shit. Have one of them be a woman, have one of them be really short or really fat, SOMETHING to make it look like we're not dealing with a group of quintuplets with the same horrible taste in facial hair.

And guys, can one person not make a comment about how boringly designed a box art is without everyone getting hysterical over the isms?
More specifically, the lack of a bland uniformity to their appearance would be more interesting simply by the absence of bland uniformity. This isn't to speak to the quality of the characters, but rather to the interest in variety in almost every aspect of life. I say "almost" because apparently this doesn't apply to video game protagonists.
 

Lunar Templar

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-.- No, it's note racist, or sexist its Jim making a joke.

and after seeing that cast line up there, I can totally see where he'd get it from.

and as a side note; This 'OH MEH GERD!! ______ SAID A THING THAT MIGHT BE RACIST/SEXIST!!' needs to fucking stop. Idiotic gun jumping bullshit like this doesn't help anything and actually cheapens two rather serious issues.
 

Something Amyss

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Maeshone said:
Really, you think Altaïr looks white? I think he looks middle-eastern.
Altair's facial features are remarkably similar to Desmond's.

teamcharlie said:
I get that it's cheaper for them to do 4-player co-op with palette-swapped character models than actually different ones, but y'know what would be even cheaper? Not doing co-op.
But all games must have online multiplayer. The gaming gods have demanded it!
 

Maeshone

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LifeCharacter said:
Maeshone said:
I'll have to amend that to 2 out of 5, since Ezio counts as white as well.
3/6 if you include Unity and assume the four men portrayed are just the same guy, 7/10 if Ubisoft really went with four distinct, white protagonists. And let's not forget about modern whitey Desmond, the actual protagonist of the first, what, 5 games?
I'm not assuming that they're the same guy, it was explicitly said at the latest live interview on Twitch.tv. So yeah, 3/6, which is still pretty good, no? Also Desmond, yes. But people never count the modern day storyline in anything when it comes to AC, which I find odd since I really like it... :p

WIth Desmond included, that's 4/7 protagonists that are white, and one that is deliberately left unknown (modern day storyline in Black Flag)

Zachary Amaranth said:
Maeshone said:
Really, you think Altaïr looks white? I think he looks middle-eastern.
Altair's facial features are remarkably similar to Desmond's.
They look exactly the same. And I always thought Desmond looked middle-eastern, at least in Assassins Creed 1. I could just be a terrible judge of character design though.
 

Erttheking

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jpz719 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
jpz719 said:
...It's 1790's France, I.E, mostly white dudes. Of course the protagonists are going to be white.
Which is exactly why AC 3 featured a white protagonist.
To be fair it was a black man in France, not a bad thing mind you, would stick out rather badly in a game about stealth.
So would a bunch of guys running around in white cloaks that stick out like a sore thumb.
 

Lightknight

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Cowabungaa said:
But even people of colour weren't strange in late-18th century Paris, especially folk of mixed race.
How common? Got numbers?

Right now the only numbers a basic internet search comes up with is "tens of thousands" of the population in Paris is African at all. Now, that's not necessarily black and that's a vague/wide range from 4% of the population if it's 90k to around 1% if closer to 20k. All this is in mind with the greatest immigration from Africa being in the 1920's. France as a whole is listed as having a 3.5% black demographic and Paris isn't at the top of the list. This is according to this document but you'll have to know French or use some kind of translator: http://www.conventioncitoyenne.com/documents/oubliesdelegalite.pdf

So considering that there's 6 million north Africans and only 2 million black people then you'll have to be extra careful on the numbers and statistics you get since numbers on Africans don't equate to black people and France outlawed taking statistics based on race and belief some time ago.

So when you say common/uncommon I'd say they're still not that common in Paris whereas Louisiana has a rich history of ethnic diversity.

Now, back in the 18th century? They were likely outright rare. People from all over the world assisted France in independence. Saying that black people played a significant role can still be true if they were few in number. I'd say the atomic bomb played a significant role in WWII but how many showed up?

As for your argument that the critique we're giving is sexist by itself makes little sense, it would mean we could give no critique at all.
Correct. Whenever you say that you'd rather this person of X race and Y gender be a Z Race and W gender you are making an inherently racist and sexist request. So yes, my argument is somewhat along those lines in games with few or only one playable characters. Games that are overtly racist or ones that have many characters with a surprising absence of diversity may be critiqued because then you're saying a group isn't proportionately represented rather than complaining that a character isn't a race/gender you "prefer (aka, racial and gender bias).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ

Getting upset that a white male isn't a black female is not inherently different from someone getting upset that a black female isn't a white male. Any claims to the contrary is rationalizing a basic axiomatic relationship between those two scenarios.

In a world where the vast majority of the developed world is white then you're going to have to get used to seeing the majority far more often than the minority. Is someone racist for reaching into a bag of marbles and pulling out a white one when the bag of 100 marbles has 80 white ones? Is it racist to create something in the image of the majority of your clients? Now, as you pull out more and more marbles you'd better sure as heck start pulling out non-white marbles because they are in there. But if you can only pull out one you should expect a white one and not be all *gasp* about it having the audacity to not be something else.

I agree that where possible diversity should be offered either in the form of alternate main characters or fully customizeable protagonists. But I'm guessing these four characters are all the same guy in different clothes or something similar to that. Because from each of their own reference points they are all the main character. Heavily scripted games require a stable (non-customizeable) protagonist if you want the protagonist to speak. Voice acting being what it is.
 

mecegirl

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jpz719 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
jpz719 said:
...It's 1790's France, I.E, mostly white dudes. Of course the protagonists are going to be white.
Which is exactly why AC 3 featured a white protagonist.
To be fair it was a black man in France, not a bad thing mind you, would stick out rather badly in a game about stealth.
No. No he wouldn't. Unless he was the biracial son of a wealthy man, they would assume that he was someone's servant and let him go about his business.
 

Lightknight

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mecegirl said:
jpz719 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
jpz719 said:
...It's 1790's France, I.E, mostly white dudes. Of course the protagonists are going to be white.
Which is exactly why AC 3 featured a white protagonist.
To be fair it was a black man in France, not a bad thing mind you, would stick out rather badly in a game about stealth.
No. No he wouldn't. Unless he was the biracial son of a wealthy man, they would assume that he was someone's servant and let him go about his business.
That's actually a very interesting point. I hadn't considered that. I still think they were rare enough to constitute attention but you're probably right. Would it have been acceptable for such a servant to run or jostle his/her way through a crowd?
 

Legion

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erttheking said:
jpz719 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
jpz719 said:
...It's 1790's France, I.E, mostly white dudes. Of course the protagonists are going to be white.
Which is exactly why AC 3 featured a white protagonist.
To be fair it was a black man in France, not a bad thing mind you, would stick out rather badly in a game about stealth.
So would a bunch of guys running around in white cloaks that stick out like a sore thumb.
Nonsense. They also have two in yellow and one carrying a large axe. They will blend in with just about any crowd.

I do have to wonder how many people using the "realism" argument complained about the female assassins in Assassins Creed 2, Brotherhood, Revelations and Liberation though.

Assassins Creed 2 had a couple of women revealed during Ezio's initiation. Brotherhood and Revelation had women assassins as recruits and eventually masters. Liberation featured a woman as the main protagonist. It's not as though this would be the first game that had women as assassins.

It is also worth mentioning that Assassins are a secret order. It doesn't matter that women wouldn't be soldiers, politicians and so on. They are not working out in the open so societies general rules simply would not apply. They'd select their trainees based upon ability to blend in and skill, as their cause is what is important to them.

There is also the likelihood that most people of the time would be less inclined to suspect a woman of being an assassin than a man. That perception would make women a lot less conspicuous which is ideal for an assassin.

There is no basis for not including them from a "realism" point of view.
 

Lightknight

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King Whurdler said:
Wow, we really made something of this, didn't we? We took what is clearly Jim Sterling taking the piss, and we made a debate of it.

Escapist Magazine, bastion of intellectualism everybody! And to think, this sites forum community believes puff-pieces for games are somehow beneath them.
Is it somehow important to you that people not talk about certain things? Does it somehow impact you if other people are discussing a subject that was started by a joke that has little merit as the basis? Is there something wrong with even meaningless or pointless discussions being meted out if you don't have to participate?

I couldn't care less what Jim originally said. What I am discussing is what people have said in response to that. That's what many of us are discussing rather than Jim's comment and most of the people discussing that are explaining that it's a joke and not to be made into a treatise on the face of gaming.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Do we know there ISNT a character creation mode?

Also stop looking for sexism/racism where it isnt. Other wise what your saying is that all the people that made that AC game said "We dont want any black people or woman in the game as they suck and no one wants them". Same bullshit as those that said shooting black zombies in RE was racist when in fact its not, there are a lot of black people in Africa so most of the zombies would be black (would be racist if most of them were white). Sometimes what you call "racist/sexist" is just laziness on the part of the developer so until we know that there is NO character creation, then people can moan. But i bet there will be one, its a multiplayer after all and i doubt the characters matter story wise outside the main character. Im guessing its why they all look like clones at the moment as they havnt finished it.
 

Maeshone

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SonOfVoorhees said:
Do we know there ISNT a character creation mode?

Also stop looking for sexism/racism where it isnt. Other wise what your saying is that all the people that made that AC game said "We dont want any black people or woman in the game as they suck and know one wants them". Same bullshit as those that said shooting black zombies in RE was racist when in fact its not, there are a lot of black people in Africa so most of the zombies would be black. Sometimes what you call "racist/sexist" is just laziness on the part of the developer so until we know there is NO character creation, then people can moan. But i bet there will be one, its a multiplayer after all and i doubt the characters matter story wise outside the main character. Im guessing its why they all look like clones at the moment.
There sort of is character creation, or at least customization, but you always play as a guy named Arno Dorian. Even in coop, each player is their own specialized and customized version of Arno
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Maeshone said:
SonOfVoorhees said:
Do we know there ISNT a character creation mode?

Also stop looking for sexism/racism where it isnt. Other wise what your saying is that all the people that made that AC game said "We dont want any black people or woman in the game as they suck and know one wants them". Same bullshit as those that said shooting black zombies in RE was racist when in fact its not, there are a lot of black people in Africa so most of the zombies would be black. Sometimes what you call "racist/sexist" is just laziness on the part of the developer so until we know there is NO character creation, then people can moan. But i bet there will be one, its a multiplayer after all and i doubt the characters matter story wise outside the main character. Im guessing its why they all look like clones at the moment.
There sort of is character creation, or at least customization, but you always play as a guy named Arno Dorian. Even in coop, each player is their own specialized and customized version of Arno
GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR OUT WITH THE TORCHES!!!!! Seriously though, that just sucks. I thought they would just be helpers, like those assassins you hired in the Ezio games and they just helped you with your game. Hopefully they will fix that. Granted your just a body guard, but atleast let people play as a black bodyguard or a female bodyguard. Cant see the point letting everyone play as the same character but with different colour hoodies. Or are we going to get cutscenes with all four characters talking at the same time? lol