A blank slate; an indistinct, "characterless" character.Samtemdo8 said:
Because they're ciphers.
Because it's all board room planning & thinking 20 movies ahead. Everybodys trying to ape successful movies.
Poll: Justice League
- Thread starter Souplex
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So, I watched it.
I GOTS OPINIONS
tl;dr! - It was...well, it was okay. It was actually disappointing in a lot of ways, but not the ways you'd expect. It wasn't an unqualified smash-bang "fuck yeah!" humdinger like Wonder Woman, and it wasn't a gloriously flawed leap for the stars like Batman v Superman. It was...safe.
I really want to know what Zack Snyder's original cut looked like. Because the film started out really well, and I could tell that was all Snyder. Then, there's a lot of Snyder that looked like it had been hacked apart by the editing room (I recognise the signs well from BvS) interspersed with Whedon's dialogue. Then, the last third feels like a completely different film. The overall feel is incredibly inconsistent and jarring, like someone took two or three different cuts of the film then mixed them all together so one scene is from one edit and one scene is from another edit.
I said it when BvS came out, I said it again with Suicide Squad, and I'll say it again now; Warner Bros. needs to keep its goddamn dick out of the editing room. Every film they make looks like it was masticated by a marketing executive.
I GOTS OPINIONS
1. It is a film. It is a film that exists. There are actors in the film.
2. Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg all turn out alright. Their origins are not shown but hinted at in a more-or-less satisfactory way.
Cyborg's CGI turned out better than I feared based on the trailers.
3. Gal Gadot is still a tall cool glass of water.
4. The start of the film is genuinely great. 10/10, especially the found footage of Superman giving an impromptu interview to some kids. Then it goes on to emphasise how the world feels directionless without Superman around, in a way that I think is very relevant; people's lives are turning upside-down and they don't recognise the world anymore.
5. The quips are satisfactory.
6. The action is satisfactory.
2. Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg all turn out alright. Their origins are not shown but hinted at in a more-or-less satisfactory way.
Cyborg's CGI turned out better than I feared based on the trailers.
3. Gal Gadot is still a tall cool glass of water.
4. The start of the film is genuinely great. 10/10, especially the found footage of Superman giving an impromptu interview to some kids. Then it goes on to emphasise how the world feels directionless without Superman around, in a way that I think is very relevant; people's lives are turning upside-down and they don't recognise the world anymore.
5. The quips are satisfactory.
6. The action is satisfactory.
1. The villain is terrible. Steppenwolf could have been done well - shit, the New Gods have tons of interesting potential villains - but as is, he's just a tall guy with a fire-ax and some bug-people minions who wants to destroy the world for reasons. Darkseid never shows up and is never even really referenced aside from one line from Steppenwolf. The Anti-Life Equation, one of the more interesting concepts from the comics (it's a mathematical equation that disproves free will [https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/10/100647/4144022-darkseid+anti+life01.jpg]) is tossed out in favour of three Mother Boxes that combine to form a glowy box called "The Unity" which seems to exist to destroy planets with big tentacles.
2. The tone is all over the place. The start is actually quite solid, Then there are a couple of flashbacks and a battle scene that were basically cut out of Lord of the Rings; very cheesy, very stale-feeling "lords of men" bullshit. Then, it's back to serious for a bit, then in the last third, it just goes waaaay onto the other end of the scale. Like, full Silver Age. Superman whips out his freeze breath.
3. Quite a lot of scenes were cut. And it's really obvious; you can tell which scenes are Snyder and which are Whedon reshoots pretty easily. The colour correction changes, for fuck's sake; that's how jarring it is.
4. Many intriguing shots from the trailers were cut from the finished film.
5. The stingers are terrible, and bode terribly.
6. Flash is not as funny as the film wants him to be.
2. The tone is all over the place. The start is actually quite solid, Then there are a couple of flashbacks and a battle scene that were basically cut out of Lord of the Rings; very cheesy, very stale-feeling "lords of men" bullshit. Then, it's back to serious for a bit, then in the last third, it just goes waaaay onto the other end of the scale. Like, full Silver Age. Superman whips out his freeze breath.
3. Quite a lot of scenes were cut. And it's really obvious; you can tell which scenes are Snyder and which are Whedon reshoots pretty easily. The colour correction changes, for fuck's sake; that's how jarring it is.
4. Many intriguing shots from the trailers were cut from the finished film.
5. The stingers are terrible, and bode terribly.
6. Flash is not as funny as the film wants him to be.
tl;dr! - It was...well, it was okay. It was actually disappointing in a lot of ways, but not the ways you'd expect. It wasn't an unqualified smash-bang "fuck yeah!" humdinger like Wonder Woman, and it wasn't a gloriously flawed leap for the stars like Batman v Superman. It was...safe.
I really want to know what Zack Snyder's original cut looked like. Because the film started out really well, and I could tell that was all Snyder. Then, there's a lot of Snyder that looked like it had been hacked apart by the editing room (I recognise the signs well from BvS) interspersed with Whedon's dialogue. Then, the last third feels like a completely different film. The overall feel is incredibly inconsistent and jarring, like someone took two or three different cuts of the film then mixed them all together so one scene is from one edit and one scene is from another edit.
I said it when BvS came out, I said it again with Suicide Squad, and I'll say it again now; Warner Bros. needs to keep its goddamn dick out of the editing room. Every film they make looks like it was masticated by a marketing executive.
I thought it was okay, but the CG is really bad. Steppenwolf's face just looks like a shit Freddy Krueger mask you might get for a few quid in ASDA because you forgot Halloween was coming. And the panning shot over Themyscira looks like the opening cinematic from an MMO made ten years ago.
Hey man MMO Cinematics from 10 years ago still looks good today. I mean look at World of Warcraft: The Burning CrusadeBaffle2 said:
Absolutely, and that's fine if you aren't blending it with live action. But to have such a big jump in appearance between the CG and the live action is really jarring. And it's not like they can't do it - some of the CG with water in it looks great.Samtemdo8 said:Hey man MMO Cinematics from 10 years ago still looks good today. I mean look at World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
Primarily copied from another thread:
Considering I was expecting nothing short of a disaster, those expectations weren't met. But it's really no good either. In terms of overall enjoyment it's about on par with BvS, but in a completely opposite way: BvS had extreme highs and lows, whereas this is just consistently 'meh' throughout. I'm actually surprised at how few things I even have to say about it. I like how they made Flash a geeky coward. And... that's about it. The one thing that I took away from this film and never expected to say is that I actually want to see the Aquaman movie whose plot synopsis they run through in about 30 seconds, as it sounded genuinely interesting. But other than that it's the most cookie-cutter, paint by numbers, average, bland, forgettable, insipid film possible and has neither stakes nor tension. I don't like or dislike it. It conjures about as much an emotional reaction as a cloud drifting in the sky. It's nowhere near the cringe incarnate of Suicide Squad, that's for sure. And the filmmaking was adequate.
But let's face it: this film was built on a rotten foundation. Right now I can trace it to 3 things in my mind:
1) The tone they picked for Man of Steel
When this whole shitshow started, it was clear that DC was still high on the Dark Knight train, having failed to notice the zillions Marvel raked in with their more light-hearted affair. Thus they decided that the starting shot for their expansive universe was going to be dreary, dark and realistic. That was when the rot set in, and it lay dormant for some time. When BvS rolled around we were sick and thoroughly tired of the whole grimdark thing, and it was clear that what worked for Batman was completely wrong for Superman.
2) All the plotlines in BvS
BvS was a storytelling disaster, and its clusterfuck story bears equally disastrous fruit here. Cyborg, Flash and Aquaman get about one character's worth of setup and development between them, stuff which could have been done in BvS had they not felt forced to cram every fucking thing on earth into that monstrosity. Superman's resurrection bears less than zero dramatic weight since it actually takes away from the already nonexistent stakes there are and renders that plot in BvS utterly moot and pointless. Remember the time traveling Flash and Batman's constant dream sequences? They're still unexplained.
3) The tonal shift pre-Suicide Squad
By now the rot laid in Man of Steel had spread catastrophically. The tonal shift there was less noticeable in Suicide Squad because there was no precedent for those characters. With Justice League there was, and it was all dark, grim, broody and heavy. There was no way the sudden shift coming into this movie wasn't going to feel as subtle as a nuclear bomb.
It's rubbish. But no the kind of rubbish that stinks up an apartment complex or is filled with HIV needles. More like a discarded Twix wrapping paper on the sidewalk: you notice it, think there's something wrong with it being there, but ultimately your life won't be affected in any way no matter what you do to it. Don't bother. It's not even worth seeing for the disaster like BvS. This might actually be the blandest film I've ever seen.
Considering I was expecting nothing short of a disaster, those expectations weren't met. But it's really no good either. In terms of overall enjoyment it's about on par with BvS, but in a completely opposite way: BvS had extreme highs and lows, whereas this is just consistently 'meh' throughout. I'm actually surprised at how few things I even have to say about it. I like how they made Flash a geeky coward. And... that's about it. The one thing that I took away from this film and never expected to say is that I actually want to see the Aquaman movie whose plot synopsis they run through in about 30 seconds, as it sounded genuinely interesting. But other than that it's the most cookie-cutter, paint by numbers, average, bland, forgettable, insipid film possible and has neither stakes nor tension. I don't like or dislike it. It conjures about as much an emotional reaction as a cloud drifting in the sky. It's nowhere near the cringe incarnate of Suicide Squad, that's for sure. And the filmmaking was adequate.
But let's face it: this film was built on a rotten foundation. Right now I can trace it to 3 things in my mind:
1) The tone they picked for Man of Steel
When this whole shitshow started, it was clear that DC was still high on the Dark Knight train, having failed to notice the zillions Marvel raked in with their more light-hearted affair. Thus they decided that the starting shot for their expansive universe was going to be dreary, dark and realistic. That was when the rot set in, and it lay dormant for some time. When BvS rolled around we were sick and thoroughly tired of the whole grimdark thing, and it was clear that what worked for Batman was completely wrong for Superman.
2) All the plotlines in BvS
BvS was a storytelling disaster, and its clusterfuck story bears equally disastrous fruit here. Cyborg, Flash and Aquaman get about one character's worth of setup and development between them, stuff which could have been done in BvS had they not felt forced to cram every fucking thing on earth into that monstrosity. Superman's resurrection bears less than zero dramatic weight since it actually takes away from the already nonexistent stakes there are and renders that plot in BvS utterly moot and pointless. Remember the time traveling Flash and Batman's constant dream sequences? They're still unexplained.
3) The tonal shift pre-Suicide Squad
By now the rot laid in Man of Steel had spread catastrophically. The tonal shift there was less noticeable in Suicide Squad because there was no precedent for those characters. With Justice League there was, and it was all dark, grim, broody and heavy. There was no way the sudden shift coming into this movie wasn't going to feel as subtle as a nuclear bomb.
It's rubbish. But no the kind of rubbish that stinks up an apartment complex or is filled with HIV needles. More like a discarded Twix wrapping paper on the sidewalk: you notice it, think there's something wrong with it being there, but ultimately your life won't be affected in any way no matter what you do to it. Don't bother. It's not even worth seeing for the disaster like BvS. This might actually be the blandest film I've ever seen.
While I'm usually a defender of Synder movies this was poor. The humour didn't land and the emotion seemed absent throughout. There's also some really weird dialogue.
The unity aesthetic is unappealing too.
The unity aesthetic is unappealing too.
Superman at least tried to say he stands for justice but he seems uncomfortable in his own skin while doing it.
I can never understand the whole complaint of "The CGI in this movie is shoddy"
I mean imo CGI just looks like CGI, I can tell whats CGI and what's not anyway.
I mean Thor Ragnarok is just straight up a CGI fest, practically being an animated movie with superimposed live action actors and no one complains?
I mean imo CGI just looks like CGI, I can tell whats CGI and what's not anyway.
I mean Thor Ragnarok is just straight up a CGI fest, practically being an animated movie with superimposed live action actors and no one complains?
There's a world of difference between bad and good CGI. Of course Gollum from LOTR is CGI, but due to the exquisite craftsmanship and effort they put in he has presence, weight and feels like he's really there. And no, you can't really tell what's CGI when it's used subtly.Samtemdo8 said:
Are you honestly telling me that you could immediately spot that the backgrounds in Wolf of Wall Street were CGI? You only "see" the CGI in Thor because you know it's fake since it's depicting things that don't exist.
I always thought Gollum looked out of place as CGI in Lord of the Rings because he looks way too cartoony next to the characters, they didn't have to make his eyes so big.bartholen said:
If anything Davy Jones is a better example:
And Wolf of Wall Street? I remember the Helicopter being straight up CGI.
This is the sort of misunderstanding I get all the time when I talk about VR. The point of CGI and VR is not to be a perfect deception, very little of art is a perfect deception. It's there to take you on the emotional journey as effectively as possible. When you are watching a cartoon you accept that you are watching drawn images creating the illusion of movement, but you forget about that and enjoy the story. It's bad when it fails to accomplish that.Samtemdo8 said:
Unless you have such a nagging feeling of false reality you just cannot get past animation, CGI no matter how well done it is. Which I guess is both a curse and a skill.
I was more concerned that the CGI designs were just so uninspired and or ugly. The best thing about StepenWolf was his voice, he didn't even has any good melodramatic lines. The only good bit was
Why does everyone keep telling me that
Well, having now seen it I can give a resounding... ew.
It's a nothing of a movie. It's not remarkably terrible, it's certainly not good, it's just there. It exists and that's about all there is to be said for it.
It's a series of nothing-special action scenes and posing shots strung together by overwrought CGI and the bare minimum of connective narrative tissue to make a coherent plot.
It also looks decidedly cheap and ugly for something that reportedly cost $300m to make.
Everything in it is just... there. Batman is there. Wonder Woman is there. Cyborg is there. I really can't think of anything else to say about them. Flash is there and is the designated funny one. To be fair, I did chuckle a couple of times.
It felt like the cinematic equivalent to one of those low-calorie meal replacement diet shakes. Harmless, mostly tasteless and will pass straight through you without leaving anything behind.
Calling it an answer or rival to Avengers seems like a bad joke.
So, uh... when's Black Panther coming out again?
It's a nothing of a movie. It's not remarkably terrible, it's certainly not good, it's just there. It exists and that's about all there is to be said for it.
It's a series of nothing-special action scenes and posing shots strung together by overwrought CGI and the bare minimum of connective narrative tissue to make a coherent plot.
It also looks decidedly cheap and ugly for something that reportedly cost $300m to make.
Everything in it is just... there. Batman is there. Wonder Woman is there. Cyborg is there. I really can't think of anything else to say about them. Flash is there and is the designated funny one. To be fair, I did chuckle a couple of times.
It felt like the cinematic equivalent to one of those low-calorie meal replacement diet shakes. Harmless, mostly tasteless and will pass straight through you without leaving anything behind.
Calling it an answer or rival to Avengers seems like a bad joke.
So, uh... when's Black Panther coming out again?
Because there's good CGI and bad CGI, dude. Good CGI looks good, so we don't care that it's CGI. Bad CGI looks bad, and we care because it looks bad.Samtemdo8 said:
There were a number of CGI-related goofs in this one, actually, which I think might be tied to the extensive post-production reshoots. Steppenwolf is a great example - I feel like 80% of Steppenwolf was done in post-production, and it made him look kinda shitty - but there's also the weird LOTR-style flashback sequences. Honestly, those took me out of the movie way more than BvS' future dream sequences, which at least were shot in the same style with the same tone. By comparison, the Amazon sequences are all over the show; there are bits where I can clearly point and say "that's Snyder" because it's his distinctive action-scene style, but the flashbacks and some of the wide tracking shots feel like they were added later. By someone who'd just watched the Hobbit movies.
Like, this is my problem; the film's effects are all over the place. You get really good Flash CGI action bundled scene-to-scene with the opening cinematic to Total War: Themyscira. Cyborg's CGI actually wasn't as bad as I feared it'd be, and definitely not as bad as it looked in the trailers. But Christ, Superman's upper lip? Sheesh. [https://i.redd.it/ku41ft7ekdyz.jpg]
I feel really bad for the DCEU and everyone involved in it. Not because they fucked anything up, but because they started out trying to do something different from Marvel and everyone hated on them for it, and now their response is to overcompensate in the opposite direction and re-shoot and re-edit every film they had in the pipeline to add more quips. Reshoots fuck up films. I have never seen a film undergo extensive last-minute reshoots and come out the other end looking good.
You know its very easy to make a still image look dumb.bastardofmelbourne said:
I have to see it in motion for myself to decide.
Just tell me though is the final climactic specticle fight any good, that's what I want to watch these movies for. I enjoyed the Supes,Bats, and WW team up against Doomsday in BvS.
Yeah, it's fine. It's not actually the best fight scene in the movie but it works.Samtemdo8 said:
I haven't seen it and I'm not gonna until I can pirate it, because I object to the way the studio treated Snyder and the work he's done on it ethically, but all I've seen and hear of this makes it seem like a complete travesty.
I'm a very big fan of Batman v Superman, as I've talked about before, but Justice League seems like something I'd utterly hate. They took what was an incredibly well realized, epic deconstruction and turned it into a farce.
Really, what this seems like the most is Batman Forever. They had two dark, moody movies by an auteur director and then, by the third, they hired some talentless hack to turn it into a comedy so that the kids will buy more action figures. It's just disheartening. I wish I could have seen Snyder's version. It was probably always gonna be worse than BvS but at least he'd have tried to make something interesting and subversive out of it.
I guess I shouldn't complain. I get a Blade Runner sequel and a Twin Peaks sequel this year and both were excellent. They can't all be winners. Still, screw Warner Bros and screw Joss Whedon.
I'm a very big fan of Batman v Superman, as I've talked about before, but Justice League seems like something I'd utterly hate. They took what was an incredibly well realized, epic deconstruction and turned it into a farce.
Really, what this seems like the most is Batman Forever. They had two dark, moody movies by an auteur director and then, by the third, they hired some talentless hack to turn it into a comedy so that the kids will buy more action figures. It's just disheartening. I wish I could have seen Snyder's version. It was probably always gonna be worse than BvS but at least he'd have tried to make something interesting and subversive out of it.
I guess I shouldn't complain. I get a Blade Runner sequel and a Twin Peaks sequel this year and both were excellent. They can't all be winners. Still, screw Warner Bros and screw Joss Whedon.
So results are in, Justice League brought in $96 million domestic, $185.5 million internationally for a total of $281.5 million on a $300 million budget. Woof. For a tentpole comic book movie on this scale that is a really bad opening. For reference, Thor Ragnarok opened with $122 million domestic, GotG 2 did nearly $147 million, Civil War did $179 million, and Spider-Man Homecoming pulled $117 million. Justice League did better than Ant Man and Dr. Strange but both of those combined had a lower budget than Justice League and they are much less known characters. This is the Justice League, so to relatively flop this hard is pretty damn bad. I wonder how this will affect DC going forward. They have some hard introspection to do, which I doubt they will.