Poll: Killers: What's your limit?

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HellbirdIV

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May 21, 2009
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As a storywriter looking to work on some various gaming projects - mostly through my friends' aspiring dev studio - I've put a lot of thought into how modern games, with the scrutiny of a wider audience, and the technology to more easily immerse you deeply into a story, handle the subjects like personal morality.

We all remember "No Russian". But it's for the greater good, right? And you can't save the people even if you tried.

But what about the nuke in Megaton? Hell, in many RPGs, old and new, killing innocents, even children, is just a matter of course - but why? The children in Skyrim people mod to be killable are simply annoying, but then killing them doesn't really affect the game beyond a few guards shouting catchphrases at you.

Are we always desensetized to violence in video games simply because it is a video game? Or do we, at some point, draw the line between harmless, mindless action and emulating something truly horrific, where we don't want to continue, fiction or not?

I don't intend for this to be a discussion about the morality of killing pixels representing lines of code, because that aspect of video game violence has been discussed a billion times over already by people far more interested in it.

All I want to know is, what about you? Where do you draw the line when you play?

If you're American, imagine yourself playing the role of the Russian Paratroopers in Modern Warfare 2 - Wrecking American suburbia, killing American soldiers, because that's simply what you're supposed to do. Really, the same can be applied to any nationality - why do you think Modern Warfare 3 didn't actually have the player invade Russia, but instead made you fight off Russian aggressors in continental Europe?

There's enough distance between us and World War II that people often question the absence of a German campaign in WWII games, but what if we modernize it? A game where the campaign has you fighting as Mujahideen, ambushing convoys of Coalition troops, or smuggling rockets into Palestine so they can be fired at the Israeli invaders? There's no secret agenda or "greater good" at play - you're playing a fictional representation of the very real enemies Westerners can and do face in reality, with the good and the ill that comes with that.

And what about those children we killed in Skyrim for being so annoying? What if the game actually cared when they die?

It's no small secret to anyone who's even a little informed about the many poverty-stricken and otherwise miserable central African nations that children are often "conscripted" by various local groups - thugs, mercenaries, religious sects, revolutionaries - and forced to fight for them. Hell, if you've seen the movie "Blood Diamond" you probably had more of that particular subject than you'd like.

Brainwashed, tortured, drugged and heavily armed - ten year olds, just big enough to hold an AK-47 and point it at whatever he wants dead - and now that happens to be you. Do you get the job done regardless, or is it a little too stomach-churning to slit the throat of a ten year old boy and hold his mouth shut while he bleeds out so his friends don't hear you coming?

At which point do you stop the game and ask, "What the fuck was the game designer thinking?"
 

ShinyCharizard

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Oct 24, 2012
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I have no limit in that regard. It's just a game so I have no qualms with killing anyone and everyone. In fact one of my favourite activities was killing the poor old grandma by the docks in Fallout 3 as gruesomely as possible.
 

Polarity27

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Jul 28, 2008
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I can't pick any of the poll options. The moral threshold in a game for me isn't category-specific, it's more granular than that. Who am I, and who are they to me? Do I choose who I am? If I don't, how well does the game sell me, the player, on my identity as myself, the character?

My most wrenching moments of moral-horizon-crossing have been when it feels intimate, somehow. You've obviously played Skyrim, so here are two examples for you: Boethiah's quest and the Ebony Blade. The Ebony Blade is easier (although dammit, almost everyone I'm just fine with murdering is essential; no offing Erikur or Maven), but even after just killing Ingun Black-Briar (who tortures and kills animals, ffs), I found myself having a Moment of Moral Ooginess. I think I have a different character who could probably do it, but not *that* character. It was so upsetting to me, the player, that I actually set up a redemption arc for my character. I don't know if I could do Boethiah's quest on anyone, even my most morally-compromised, angry, revenge-ridden character. Ugh, I don't even think I could do it with *Cicero*, and I can't frigging stand Cicero. To have someone follow me and trust me with their life, and then lead them to a human-sacrifice pillar is a bridge too far for me. See, I *know* this person. I've been adventuring with this person. We've fought together, nearly died together. Another one on a similar line you may have played is the Dark Side option in the first KOTOR game. I killed Mission, but it was hard for me. I really, really wanted her to just have a speck of sense and run away.

And yet. I really want a child-killing mod for WoW. Remember those utterly obnoxious children in Stormwind? The doll-stealer? I can't tell you how many times I've cast blizzard in the vain hope of damaging those kids. I'm not sure if I want to *kill* the kids in Skyrim, but Jarl Baelgruuf has some thoroughly obnoxious children-- and the one that isn't Daedra food is worse than the one who is. I'd like to smack the shit out of that kid. But Lucia, the kid Hearthfire added in Whiterun, the one who got thrown away by her relatives? I'd kill anyone who laid a hand on her. The first two are just annoyances, the last one is kind of known, even if it's only a line of backstory. OTOH, Carth Onasi is known, a companion, and trusts you (mostly), but I'd kill him and resurrect him a few times just to *keep* killing him. So I can't even say "I won't kill a trusted teammate".

Betray my country? Possibly, sure. Kill a kid? Possibly, sure. Kill a civilian? Possibly, sure. It's the circumstances that make it either easy or awful. Who the character is, and how thoroughly you buy into it.
 

pure.Wasted

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Oct 12, 2011
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Polarity27 said:
I can't pick any of the poll options. The moral threshold in a game for me isn't category-specific, it's more granular than that. Who am I, and who are they to me? Do I choose who I am? If I don't, how well does the game sell me, the player, on my identity as myself, the character?
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

Another poster mentioned enjoying killing grandmas in Fallout 3 - well, of course, because killing grandmas in Fallout 3 is a glorified arcade game. As is most of Fallout 3 , in fact. The game world doesn't change, the character doesn't change, NPCs' relationships to the character don't change. It's completely abstract and fantastic.

Compare any old action movie where the protagonist happily kills dozens, if not hundreds, of bad guys, to a noir thriller where a single murder might send the killer off the deep edge because of guilt, fear of being caught, or what have you. Both are legitimate reactions because what's legitimizing them is the context, the world they take place in.

Fallout 3 inspires a very minimal level of immersion. More than Mario Party, but less than, say, Red Dead Redemption. The people that populate it aren't really people in any recognizeable way because your interactions with them are so binary and artificial.
 

HellbirdIV

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May 21, 2009
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Polarity27 said:
I can't pick any of the poll options. The moral threshold in a game for me isn't category-specific, it's more granular than that. Who am I, and who are they to me? Do I choose who I am? If I don't, how well does the game sell me, the player, on my identity as myself, the character?
I did try to present a few clear-cut examples.

Maybe the exact degree of immersion is a deciding factor for you, to which I'll just have to point at your general Skyrim examples. Assume "X" degree of immersion, and rate the poll options on a scale based on X.

Assuming a degree of personal intimacy and immersion, a rather vague level of legitimacy, and a clear level of free will - the game puts a knife in your hand and a child in front of you, but it doesn't tell you what to do - how do the options stack up?
 

Launcelot111

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Jan 19, 2012
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I have a really hard time killing people willy nilly. Even in the Skyrims of the world, if I kill someone for no reason, it's because I'm frustrated (and I immediately feel bad and reload) or it's the Thalmor. Back when I was playing San Andreas, I killed a ton of random passersby one afternoon to level up all my gun stats, and I felt terrible and disappointed in myself for the rest of the week. If the character can't adequately be positioned as the bad guy, I feel like a tremendous ass for killing them.

The one exception to this was with Fallout 3 and the experimental MIRV. I loved going to Megaton, shooting straight up, and laughing as the mini nukes rained from the sky. I would always reload, but that was just so I could do it again.
 

TheBestPieEver

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Dec 13, 2011
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I won't kill you if you are charismatic. That is how it works, however, if someone is offering a high price for your head I will kill you if you are evil. If you are evil and charismatic, but you are opressing a good, similarly charismatic fella, then you are going to get your head capped. Replace the words "Evil" with "Against me" and "Good" with "On my side" and that is how my morality works. You live if I like you unless you are against me, in which case I will need some reward or one of my buddies to incentivise me to kill you.
 

zarker

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Oct 14, 2012
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I agree with the guy above me. As long as I like an NPC, enemy or ally, I'll let em live. If I don't like you, enemy or ally, I'll have no qualms killing you. I generally RP as myself in games and just go with the decision I like most. If that means betraying an ally simply because I prefer my enemy, I'll do in a heartbeat.
 

pure.Wasted

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Oct 12, 2011
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wombat_of_war said:
i saw a video for no russian and it was at exactly that point after decades of gaming that i actually said nope i draw the line at that.

there are always exceptions with games. its only the fps games that seem to have this weird thing of only letting you play western forces or the perceived good guys. every other genre i can think of that portrays the same thing has no issue with it.
Um, is it really that weird? You just expressed how much of a problem you have with playing a bad guy who does bad things in an FPS (regardless of the fact that the No Russian PC actually has the noblest of intentions). Do you really want fight for the Nazis in WW2?

Having said that, there are actually quite a few exceptions to your "weird thing" rule, which makes me wonder how many modern shooters you've actually played. Off the top of my head, MW2, Black Ops, and the BF3 campaign all feature the player doing some reprehensible things at one time or another.
 

HellbirdIV

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TheBestPieEver said:
Double post but... where is the option to: "You live if I like you"?
It's not included because it's not part of the equation, really.

As I tried to point out by citing the Skyrim children being modded to be killable, that's done because players were irritated and wanted to get some catharsis out of killing them.

That's very different from the game expecting you to kill the children and having that be part of the story, yeah?
 

nykirnsu

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Oct 13, 2012
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I'll kill whatever a game makes me kill, but depending on what it is, I'll probably think a fair bit about the morality behind it.
 

Evil Smurf

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Nov 11, 2011
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1. Your options are confusing and remind me of the doom difficulty levels
2. If I am playing a sandbox game I have no emotional conection to civilians and so I feel nothing for massacering them.
3. Games are not meant to be taken so seriously man.
 

blackrave

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Mar 7, 2012
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I don't remember who said it but the line goes
"Context is everything"
Under right circumstances I could slowly dissolve disabled orphans in concentrated acid
And I'm not talking about games here :/
 

pure.Wasted

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Oct 12, 2011
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Evil Smurf said:
1. Your options are confusing and remind me of the doom difficulty levels
2. If I am playing a sandbox game I have no emotional conection to civilians and so I feel nothing for massacering them.
3. Games are not meant to be taken so seriously man.
Yeah, man! Games aren't art. OP obviously needs to play more Tetris.
 

Jakub324

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Jan 23, 2011
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I'm not sure. I think I could probably shoot kids in a game, but I'm not sure if I could cut one open.
I don't know how I feel about killing people from my own country either. Logically, I can't find a problem with it, but there's a reason I haven't fought the British on Company of Heroes.
 

GabeZhul

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Mar 8, 2012
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I am really picky about killing in games, most of the time.
If there is a non-lethal option, I usually take that instead of the lethal one even if it's more of a hassle than the latter, so games like DE:HR and Dishonored are right up my alley.
If an RPG has a morality system, I am always good, and NEVER choose the evil/dark side options. I never kill civilians in Skyrim or New Vegas.

Actually, sometimes I even felt a bit guilty about massacring bandit camps. I mean, imagine it! You are a downtrodden bloke who is completely broke and had to resort to banditry to survive, and suddenly a guy in full daedric/power armor and enchanted weapons/plasma weapons waltzes into your camp and murders you and your fellow bandits for shits and giggles (and XP, but you don't know that :p). From the bandit point of view, the MC of these games is something of an eldritch abomination that they have no way of defeating and kills them just because he is passing by...

In short, my biggest problem with this poll is that I can only take one option.
 

Baron von Blitztank

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May 7, 2010
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I tend not to kill any random NPC's unless I'm playing an irredeemably evil character or if it's part of a quest. I will make some exceptions for NPC's that are REALLY annoying and aren't part of any quest or once their quest is completed.