Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills

[smithy_2045]

As a statistician, I'd have to say that the true value of my math skills resides in the 99% confidence interval of (pretty good, fucking amazing).

 

[Rems]

48 ÷ 2 * (9+3)= either 2 or 288 depending on whether you multiply or divide first

Multiplication and division hold no precedence over each other as division is simply the inverse function of multiplication (IE divide by two or multiply my .5 yield the same results), like how - 1 and + -1 mean the same thing.

Think of it this way, after the 3rd grade you never use the symbol ÷ again, rather you put what you want divided on top of a line, and what you want it divided by on the bottom of the line, and the line has a dual role as a parenthesis.

order of operations should be thought of more like this

Parenthesis AND Indices
Multiplication AND Division
Addition AND Subtraction

No because you always go left to right. Whilst parenthesis and exponents come first, for operations of equal rank (multiplication and division, addition and subtraction) you go left to right. The answer is always 288.

 

[Saulkar]

The Order of Operations is P.E.M.D.A.S.
Parenthesis
Exponents
Multiplication
Division
Addition
Subtraction

I have always been taught BEDMAS.

Brackets
Exponents
Division
Multiplication
Addition
Subtraction

Division and multiplication are reversed but at the same time I have been told that does not matter.

As for my skills in math in general? Abysmal, aside from geometry and percentages (and programing expressions to a lesser extent) which I use frequently I suck hard and hit a brick wall. I was always weak at it.

 

[miketehmage]

I'm studying software engineering so it's pretty important to me so that I can create and understand useful algorithms. However I was never taught PEMDAS. I was just told that multiplication and division were done before addition and subtraction, and that anything inside brackets was done before anything outside of brackets.

Which is effectively the same thing but I was never taught a neat little acronym. As for people not being good at maths, it doesn't really bother me. If I'm good and they're not it means theres less competition for me to get a job

 

[Rems]

It makes no difference what order multiplication and division come in your acronym. They have the same operational rank.

 

[GundamSentinel]

I used to study aerospace engineering and now I'm doing industrial design engineering, so yeah, math is quite important for me. It still surprises me how many people on a university of technology can't understand basic mathematical principles even though they're supposed to evaluate differential equations.

It's not very often that I get a problem where I'm asked to do something simple like 9*27. It's always 3.592*12.735 or 34^(2/9).

I suppose that might be a good reason. ^^

 

[barbzilla]

I think I should clarify. I don't think the mnemonic is important, nor do I think that is what everyone is taught. I do think everyone was taught some version of the Order of Operations by the time they finished elementary school.

As to the questioning about multiplication and division, as well as addition and subtraction, they are equal in their own sectors and are done from left to right. So in 2x1/9 it would be 2x9 (unless otherwise indicated by a bracket).

Thank you all for your responses. It shows that math is fairly important for most people.


Captcha: easy as cake (I wish everyone thought so captcha).

 

[Olas]

I went up to and finished Calculus 2.
And all I have to say is...it was a huge fucking waste of time.
I honestly don't think I could even begin to try and use any of it since the last higher math class I took was 6+ years ago.
Seriously a significant chunk of us will never use anything past the basics in day to day life. Hell even though math comes up regularly in my job (I work in a clinical lab) it's all stat based and computers do the calculations for you. My only job is to know how to interpret the results computer spits out in the form of graphs/data.

I almost went as far as you. I dropped out of calculus 2 halfway through the semester when I realized it was taking up more of my time than all my other classes combined and that none of it was actually going be helpful for me as an IS major.

As far as I can tell math is really only important in areas that require absolute precision. Precision is important when you're say, designing a bridge or airplane wing, which needs to be the perfect shape to function or people will die. But in the other 95% of life's daily activities you can get by without knowing the exact measurements and therefore don't need to worry about it.

Edit: oh and mathematical notation SUCKS. I like doing things on computers but with math equations everything needs to be written by hand. Kinda ironic if you think about it.

 

[lord canti]

Aww the good old Please,Excuse,My,Dear,Aunt,Sally. Sadly It's been years since I've actually had to use anything but basic math. I really need to increase my mathematical knowledge.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

I haven't seen any trend like that. The trend with people on my List seems to be doing a really simple convoluted Maths problem.

(i.e. 1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1x2 = ?)

Yup, that's exactly it. And it is easy. Although, it's usually even simpler - only addition, for example. A favourite one to troll people with is something along the lines of 2+2+2*0=? (or add in some more 2s if you wish). Cue people answering 0...or even 6.

The Order of Operations is P.E.M.D.A.S.
Parenthesis
Exponents
Multiplication
Division
Addition
Subtraction

An easy way to remember the order is with the phrase Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (I thought everyone was taught this in elementary school).

I personally never learnt the PEMDAS system in school at any point and I really dont like the way people write their mathematics to be deliberately confusing. Problems like these are only there to serve the purpose of somone being able to go "Hur hur hur - youre so dumb you cant even do basic maths".

If you do maths and want to make what youre trying to do clear you use brackets to show the exact order.

Hence you get:
1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+(1x2)
or
(1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1)x2
and
2+2+(2*0)
OR
(2+2+2)*0

Its so simple to do that I cant help but think that the ONLY reason these exist is for peoples superiority complexes.

Im currently doing a degree in mathematics and I do modules in quantum physics and advanced electromagnetism. These problems sometimes trip me up not because im a bad mathmetician but because the writing of such problems is DESIGNED to trip you up. If I was writing this as a genuine mathematical problem I would not write it like that.

USE BRACKETS when writing equations. Simples.

Just knowing the proper order of operations is a better solution. Because there is one and it is quite clear. If I were writing it as a genuine math problem I would expect people to know the order of operations as well as I do and find putting (1x2) to be utterly unnecessary.

My point being that (assuming you know the definition of the + - x / operators) you dont need to know PEMDAS/BODMAS if you use brackets. Which makes it easier for a much larger number of people to know whats going on no matter what their background in mathematics. I didnt learn order of operations - I still havent to this day - and I cant think im the only one who didnt.

When reading through a textbook or solving with pen and paper NOBODY (at least not in my textbooks, my coursemates or my proffesors) is going to write an expression in that manner. Thats not an accident. The way the above problems are written is confusing - thats their purpose. Their only place would be to test your knowledge of PEMDAS/BODMAS in an exam for a course you actually learnt it in. After that they become largley irrelevant.

Unless youre trying to put one over someone an equation written in that manner serves precisely no purpose.

Also in doing mathematical solutions to a problem it is very important to know exactly where everything came from. If (as I am atm) youre doing a problem that requires two full sides of A4 to solve having 2x1 instead of 2 helps you track back through the problem easier which is very helpful if you make a mistake.

Even when working through something fairly basic such as 3x3 matrix multiplication its often helpful to write in the 1s and 0s as you can easily track back through the problem and see what you did and where all your numbers came from. Its just good practise tbh.

But in some cases you don't need brackets if you know the proper order of operations. Presumably if you're learning math you should know it instead of trying to get around it.

And the x2 bit at the end isn't confusing at all. It's very clear IF you know everything you ought to.

And I'd write it that way because it's simple to do so and I wouldn't add parentheses because personally I don't find them necessary there, so it wouldn't even cross my mind to do so. Because it's clear.

It isn't VERY important to all know where it came from, that's merely your method of tracking. It is useful, like not substituting variables with the actual values until the end in many problems, but it is far from being vital. But it's merely a tool, not as important as you portray it. You can still go over the lines without it and it's quite possible to see where things came from without doing it as you do.

So everyone should know it and do it in exact the same way? And this way happens to be better? Despite the fact that its a purely arbitrary descion?

Applying rules in mathematics only works if everyone abides to the same rule. Mathematics is the one and only universal language and so saying "This way is the way things will be done now!" only works if everyone else also does it. If not it just creates issues - like this one.

I mean seriously do you know the way they teach mathematics to kids in Uruguay or Iceland or Thailand? Do they teach PEMDAS? Or not? I have no idea - but I know that it isnt universal. Hence this isnt a "ought to know" kind of thing. This is one solution to a problem which is much easier and more universal to solve in the manner I described.

And in any case it still doesnt respond to my original - "nobody writes like this expect for people who want to confuse other people". Because their is no need for it to be written like we all want a cookie if we get it right. Expect for people who want to get a rise out of other people and laugh at their "stupidity".

If people get that problem wrong its not their fault for not knowing your arbitrary rule that you happen to abide by. Its your fault for not writing it clearly.

 

[lunavixen]

I was never taught any of those acronyms but the order of operations, multiplication tables and all that stuff was drilled into me in primary school.

I did 2 unit mathematics in high school (above standard) (We had [in increasing order] standard maths, 2 unit, 3 unit and 4 unit maths at our school. Most people only do standard maths or no maths at all, there was only 17 in my 2 unit class and there was only 3 people in 3 unit after I dropped it (the teacher gave me the serious creeps))

I deliver pizzas for a living, so i need to be able to do basic maths on the fly

 

[Ymbirtt]

Well, I'm a student of maths and computer science, so maths is pretty important to me, but what irritates me is the popular opinion that evaluating messes like 1+5*5-7/1*9 constitutes maths, when it really doesn't. True, we have this BIDMAS convention (Brackets, indices, division, etc, yet another version of PEMDAS), but if I were to write something like 1+5*5-7/1*9 in one of my projects, they'd throw it out immediately because writing things like that just makes the reader's life difficult. I could, if I wanted, write this entire post without commas or full stops, and it would still be just about possible understand it and read it, but I can't then say, "Well if you can't understand this, you're clearly terrible at reading". It's entirely my fault that you can't understand it, because I wrote it badly.

Similarly, the fact that different people will arrive at different answers to 1+5*5-7/1*9 does not highlight how stupid maths is or how stupid the reader is for not agreeing with what other people say, it highlights how stupid the person writing it is for not writing it, say, like this:

Or like this:

And now, just to hammer home my point, this entire post again but with all the commas and full stops removed. Even with all the capital letters left in, it's still not readable:

Spoiler

Well I'm a student of maths and computer science so maths is pretty important to me but what irritates me is the popular opinion that evaluating messes like 1+5*5-7/1*9 constitutes maths when it really doesn't True we have this BIDMAS convention (Brackets indices division etc yet another version of PEMDAS) but if I were to write something like 1+5*5-7/1*9 in one of my projects they'd throw it out immediately because writing things like that just makes the reader's life difficult I could if I wanted write this entire post without commas or full stops and it would still be just about possible understand it and read it but I can't then say "Well if you can't understand this you're clearly terrible at reading" It's entirely my fault that you can't understand it because I wrote it badly

Similarly the fact that different people will arrive at different answers to 1+5*5-7/1*9 does not highlight how stupid maths is or how stupid the reader is for not agreeing with what other people say it highlights how stupid the person writing it is for not writing it say like this:

Or like this:

And now just to hammer home my point this entire post again but with all the commas and full stops removed:

Spoiler

Sorry, I'm not doing infinite recursion today.

 

[Odbarc]

I've always been aspergers-good at math and has given me a false-positive genius-level result in an IQ test which people have thrown in my face as a means to demean my lack of personal goals or accomplishments.

I find it kind of funny when people give me a "Wow, how'd you do that?" by having close approximation estimates or spot-on basic-math sums calculated instantaneous which is no more impressive to me in real life situations than it would be for an internet forum lurker.



Math is important if you deal with money. Other than that, we've all got our cell-phone/calculators with us at all times. Most people don't actually NEED math as much as they need to be able to count to 10.
Though people who don't know how to do basic math are also more likely to not be able to understand or retain basic commands or functions effectively.

I think spelling is pretty important. Grammar is good. People who have neither of these skills or even attempt them are likely text-message abusing and find it quite perfectly acceptable to never succeed a greater vernacular than "lol" or "wut u want".

 

[C F]

I, C F, do hereby take the field of Mathematics to be my satirically wedded wife.

I'm pretty good at casually handling math without having to study or drill in the concepts. So long as I have someone (i.e. a professor) who's willing to go over the principles as they come, I can get it down with a simple test of concept or two, never do the homework (because screw buying a textbook), file it away, and not have to worry when it comes to testing. I breezed through Pre-calculus algebra with an A without ever studying or practicing, and so far it's looking like Business (or Applied as it may be known) Calculus I is following suit.
Everything makes sense to me.
Today is a good day.

 

[barbzilla]

c) Understanding the probability of random drops. An example is the Reins of the Ravenlord in WoW (a mount). It had like a 4% drop chance? You could only do the thing which gave a chance of it dropping once per day.
It was correct to assume that statistically you had a better chance of obtaining it within the first 25 days then any days after that.

Unfortunately, when it came to 'coming back the next day', some people believe that magically they had a greater chance of getting the mount based on the facts of the first day. They thought that they will get it by x days. No. Sadly and depressingly, every-time you return and kill the boss, it's a fresh 4% chance and a fresh 25 days FROM THAT NEW TIME.


Statistics are constantly misunderstood by humans beings who subconsciously believe in an aspect of fate or luck. At the end of the day statistics are about perspective.

Actually if you take Euler's Constant into account for statistics it does mean that they have a greater chance the next day, but this goes off of the probability of the same event occurring multiple times. You should take a look at Euler's writings on lotteries.

At the same time I agree with you, people tend to think that if the stars align properly then all of creation should be bestowed upon them. I think that is a subject for another discussion though.

 

[mad825]

You don't come off as snobish here. It would be perfectly fine if people who are unable to complete basic math problems left it alone, but the issue is people think they are right. This means that our society is unable to process basic mathematical functions such as budgeting.

I am sure it probably has something to do with the school systems, given the level of aptitude I have seen lately.

If they can't budget then they're screwed for life, right? It means nothing and you're over looking the problem.

Honestly, BIDMAS (P.E.M.D.A.S or whatever) is overrated and isn't used in day-to-day life for everyone therefore not many people care too much. It's the sort of thing you're taught in maths then forget about before the term is over when the exams are done.

I am sure you are right about me over thinking the issue. It just seems a bit off. It was drilled into my head through out school (though I didn't go through public school for most of it), and I am amazed at how few recognize the issue.

I realize that the Order of Operations may not be a major day to day issue, but it is required for you to figure out things like interest and probability. So, unless people wish to go about trusting that all is well with the people that handle their money, they should really look into improving their math skills.

Don't get me wrong I am not a math whiz by any means, I just find it deplorable that people would neglect basic arithmetic to this level.

Again, it isn't really needed. If needed be, it can be easily re-learnt (and forgotten) when necessary.

Unless you're going to open a new bank/trust account, get a new loan/mortgage or seriously going into debt then there isn't really much uses for it.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

Snip

Ok dude. Since weve now descended to the level where you just want to insult me im gonna leave it there.

I will reitterate one last point though:

There is a reason why nodoby writes things like

1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1x2 = ?

In a textbook or in mathematical prose. Since youre obviously a genius who doesnt need to think about making mistakes or getting things wrong it may not be obvious to you that this is simply a dumb way to write a mathematical expression. For us mere plebs anyway.

Seriously the superiority complex is just dripping off you.

Ok im done.