I can do everything up to medium difficulty algebra.
I'm relatively decent at equations and expressions.
Math was never my strong suit.
I'm relatively decent at equations and expressions.
Math was never my strong suit.
Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills
- Thread starter barbzilla
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There's more to maths and CS than writing code; sometimes I have to write maths, sometimes I write reports on my code, which involves plucking out particular sections and dissecting them. In that case, if I were to consistently write statements like x+y*y-z/a*b, they would mark me down. Yes, I was exaggerating when I implied I'd be instantly failed for writing one particular line, but for my maths projects I'd be seriously penalised if every statement was written obtusely, even if it's still possible to understand it with liberal application of BIDMAS. Also, indentation isn't necessary for code to compile in a lot of languages, and it's still possible for humans to read it without indentation.Mortai Gravesend said:
In the same way that commas aren't required to be there in certain cases by convention. I'm not saying that every single bracket is 100% necessary, in the same way that a lot of the commas I used weren't necessary. None of the brackets in 1+(5*5)-((7/1)*9) are necessary if you follow BIDMAS, but the statement is suddenly so much easier for everyone to read.
Bear in mind that you read the entire thing with punctuation first, and also that just because you (one person) could read it that time doesn't mean that it's a sensible thing to write and expect everyone to be able to read. We don't write things down to be elitists and say "well I can read it so obviously everyone else can. We write things so that other people can read them and learn the same things we learned. To that end, if there's any opportunity to make your writing less obtuse, you must take it.
Nah, I realized it was an acronym, I was just following up my statement with my reasoning as to why I found the Aunt Sally method easier to remember.Rems said:
But to the meat of my question, if PEMDAS is simply there as a common method to keep people from getting off track, does it REALLY matter what order you perform an operation in? To an extent, I'm sure, but is it possible to get better, more accurate, or faster results using alternate methods?
As long as you follow the grouping (parenthesis) (exponents) (multiplication and division) (addition and subtraction). Inside each grouping everything is equal in importance and should be done from left to right, but each group needs to be done in their individual placement. I am sure there is a better way to learn the O of O, PEMDAS is just how I learned it.Syzygy23 said:
As a side note, to the people taking this personally and going at each other, can we keep it civil in here please?
I've actually been seeing a lot of this style of response. I actually agree that these problems use poor syntax. The issue is that people should know the O of O for this very reason. Not every problem they receive in life will be wrapped up in a nice neat package. I know when I am in a hurry I often don't use proper syntax (personal problem as I am the only one that reads my equations).Acrisius said:
So I guess it goes back to the simple problem of should a person be expected to be prepared for another person's mistakes?
This is where I expected the average person to be. Most people don't use high level math in their daily lives, so no real reason to retain all of that knowledge. But basic math skills taught to you in elementary school and then used in the subsequent years should be retained just from the frequent usage (or so I thought).M920CAIN said:
I think it's hilarious to see discussions between people who are REALLY FUCKING good in math discussing what comes first of those two. I guess they have never tried to see for themselves that there's no difference and just remembered the acronym.Rems said:
I have an engineering degree and I teach high school math and physics. Needless to say, I think it is really important.
The problem I find is that the school system doesn't seem to stress the importance of mathematics enough. Nor do they understand what it is. Mathematics is the language of science. And just like English, fluency requires lots of practice.
The other problem is the social implications of being weak/strong at math aren't the same as being weak/strong in English. Take the following two examples:
It's not considered a laughing matter when a member of society can't speak or read the language. Everyone would try to help this person if they could.
Now go to a restaurant and its a joke when someone can't split the bill and tip properly because they can't do the math. Some people even wear it as a badge of honour that they are weak at math.
Until that mentality changes, there will be problems with understanding basic math.
The problem I find is that the school system doesn't seem to stress the importance of mathematics enough. Nor do they understand what it is. Mathematics is the language of science. And just like English, fluency requires lots of practice.
The other problem is the social implications of being weak/strong at math aren't the same as being weak/strong in English. Take the following two examples:
It's not considered a laughing matter when a member of society can't speak or read the language. Everyone would try to help this person if they could.
Now go to a restaurant and its a joke when someone can't split the bill and tip properly because they can't do the math. Some people even wear it as a badge of honour that they are weak at math.
Until that mentality changes, there will be problems with understanding basic math.
There's nothing disturbing about this. Those math questions on Facebook don't tell you anything reliable about how good people are at math; they just tell you how good people are at switching mental processes. Facebook deals primarily with reading and writing, and if you're browsing Facebook your brain is going to be in that mode. When you encounter a math problem that exists specifically to test understanding of the Order of Operations you have to switch mental gears from "read things left to right" to "look at the entire line and figure out which part to read first". Some people switch those gears easily while others don't. Those problems are specifically designed to trip up people who are in "Reading Sentences" mode rather than "Reading Math" mode.barbzilla said:
I would also like to point out that Parenthesis is often known as Brackets to many. BEMDAS.barbzilla said:
I'm not sure if parenthesis uses "*" like you did. Everything uses "()" for any math involving I did.
I.E.: 7(42 + 9)(50 - 21) - 2 =
And I'm not great at math at all. Can't do anything but the simple stuff in my head, and I'm slow at it. I'm a calculator guy.
I had to write a math equivalency test for college, I only had a basic grade 11 math and I needed grade 11 college or university grade. I just got the results in the mail a few days ago and I passed with a 53%. The test was 100 questions but I only needed to do 72/100. I did them all but I'm not sure if the other 28 questions counted towards the absolute total. 53% was what I got on the 72/100 questions. I passed and I can stay in so thats all I care about.
Only real difference is subtraction and division are associative (2/3 is not 3/2, 10-2 is not 2-10), while multiplication and addition are commutative (2*3=3*2, 2+10=10+2).DoPo said:
I'm a huge fan of mathematics, and I view that I'm quite good at it, last year I won a conference math-meet, and I made it to the final 3 in State. This was against people who had an extra year on me, I plan on winning this year. I want to become a computer hardware engineer, so math is quite important.
Just finished a theoretical physics masters and starting on a biological physics PhD. So I use maths quite a lot. What I don't use however, is expressions like 1+1+1+1-1-1+1+1+1*1+1, because it's annoying to read when I could just have 6*1. Or 6. Because when I'm doing my partial derivatives of something by something with something constant to get something else then anything I can do to make it look nicer is appreciated.
Also, this reminded me of this
Also, this reminded me of this
Awesome, I hope you go all the way with it.Jeffrey Crall said:
There seems to be a trend starting where people think I believe everyone needs to be able to do advanced mathematics. I really do not, I was mostly posting on the level of retention people have with something that was (likely) drilled into their heads for 8-12 years.