Poll: Let's Discuss Piracy

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Devour

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It's time to discuss piracy, ladies and gents.

The question of piracy (as a whole) is not a simple one to address, as different moral viewpoints (or even similar moral viewpoints) can end up at completely different conclusions to how to solve the problem of piracy and whether or not it IS a problem.

Let's address piracy as a crime:-
  • [li]It doesn't count as theft, as there is no theft of a physical product. You are merely copying a product over.[/li]
    [li]It is a breach of copyright law.[/li]
    [li]Numerous bodies are attempting to place highly invasive anti-piracy laws into our day to day lives. Including, but not limited to, internet services being cut off without any advance warning or warrant required and hacking and constant monitoring of suspected PCs involved in piracy. Even for downloading a single illegal file. I think you could do that by accident.[/li]

Let's address what economists / consumers usually think of piracy:-
  • [li]It's a natural part of consumer behaviour. It's a way to test the waters of a product. Attempting to shut it down doesn't do anything useful.[/li]
    [li]The vast majority of people who have access to the internet have done an act of piracy on the internet (something like 90% of teens had over 700 illegally downloaded songs on their portable music players). Making piracy an arrestable crime under law would mean a lot of people would be criminalised for it. See American prohibition, which created organised crime.[/li]
    [li]More anti-piracy stuff = Fewer sales and more piracy. See Spore as an example of serious DRM getting the game into a piracy whirlwind.[/li]
    [li]Wares are generally of a better quality than the product itself.[/li]
    [li]Consumers don't really consider it a crime, simply because it's not causing anyone any real harm.[/li]

Let's address what games publishers / most governments think of piracy:-
  • [li]It is a crime, unquestionably. Equal to theft, and should be tried as such.[/li]
    [li]Piracy must be stamped out at all costs. Ignoring statistical evidence and claiming it funds child abuse and terrorism [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTH62P7fFJo] is for some reason necessary.[/li]
    [li]All negative backlash against anti-piracy methods must be ignored, despite the fact they often lose sales because of it.[/li]
    [li]A person's privacy doesn't matter as long as long as they aren't using pirated software. The irony is, of course, that people using pirated software won't have their privacy invaded.[/li]

( Feel free to add to any of this, it isn't comprehensive, and it's probably pretty strawmen, but I think it sets the basis for the argument. )

Here is where my opinion comes in. My reasons for disliking this anti-piracy trend is two-fold:-
[list type=decimal][li]Piracy is a natural way for a consumer to weed out the terrible products from the good ones. This scares the executives and publishers, as it means they can't make terrible products and make money from them.[/li]
[li]Piracy is being used as an excuse to invade our privacy. It's not about anti-pirate versus pirate (that battle is unwinnable for the anti-pirates and they know it since all current anti-piracy methods are useless against pirated software), it's about privacy versus surveillance. If pretty much any of the anti-piracy acts go through, people in that part of the world will be royally fucked. Both the companies and the governments are attacking our liberty under the pretence of defending us.[/li][/list]

I suspect these are the ONLY two reasons (or, at least, the root reasons) why there's such an anti-piracy trend going on in the corporate and political world. Anything about it being a crime is an excuse for these two things. I can only assume this from the utterly retarded anti-piracy methods that've been made lately. And I can only assume those anti-piracy methods were made to force more people to start doing piracy in an attempt to inflate the problem to get these two goals done. I can think of no other reasons other than this and the DRM designers being utter morons.

So, think about it like this. Piracy is a natural consumer method (equal to getting a taster of a product at a shop, except the product can be made through Star Trek-esque production machines) to testing out a product. Companies and governments want to (for whatever reason, probably making more money and being authoritarian) be able to control and monitor your every move, as well as stopping you from being able to test a product before you buy it.

People can claim that piracy is a crime, but I know which one of these I think is the bigger crime.

How about all of you?
 

xbeaker

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Sep 11, 2007
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This thread has been done about a thousand times.. no one wants to discuss it again. I'll give you the cliffnotes though.

Almost everyone will come out against it. The few people who do it, and admit it will be blasted. Then some people will get put on probation or banned.
 

SteinFaust

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Jun 30, 2008
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i am ambivalent. this is totally a flamewar/lock in the making, btw.

i just don't feel that i have to pay 22USD for a cd with one or 2 good tracks on it so that _______ can have a new Lamborghini.

except foreign bands, where i have no choice but to order. also, Rammstein. i believe in what they do, and they give the fans their money's worth at shows.
 

Icecoldcynic

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Oct 5, 2009
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This topic will not end well. Let me just say that piracy, no matter how you see it, is stealing. I don't care how people try to sugar-coat it by claiming 'try before you buy' or other such bullshit, because you know full well it's stealing.

Whether this stops you doing it or not is another matter, but just don't try to call it something it's not. Admit, and accept that you're a thief who steals their games.
 

NeutralMunchHotel

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SteinFaust said:
i just don't feel that i have to pay 22USD for a cd with one or 2 good tracks on it so that _______ can have a new Lamborghini.
This is the worst arguement for piracy I've ever heard, and for someone not entirely against it it's quite hard to make me think that. If you honestly think every musician could buy a Lamborghini then, well... you're very, very wrong.

And why not just buy individual tracks?
 

Devour

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Oct 21, 2009
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Icecoldcynic said:
This topic will not end well. Let me just say that piracy, no matter how you see it, is stealing. I don't care how people try to sugar-coat it by claiming 'try before you buy' or other such bullshit, because you know full well it's stealing.

Whether this stops you doing it or not is another matter, but just don't try to call it something it's not. Admit, and accept that you're a thief who steals their games.
Well, actually, it's not theft. Not in the eyes of the law, economists or the vast majority of consumers.
 

Uncreation

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Aug 4, 2009
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Devour said:
No one wants to discuss piracy? o_O
It's already been discussed to death. There have been tens of threads about it, in the last weeks alone. I hope people will get tired of this subject eventually, but it seams they never do.
 

More Fun To Compute

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Nov 18, 2008
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I think that piracy should be covered by civil law and not criminal law. Locking someone up for copying that floppy seems to be wrong.
 

TerranReaper

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Mar 28, 2009
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The community of the Escapist leans towards anti-piracy, with some people leaning towards pro-piracy. Personally, everything that has to be said about piracy in terms of both sides has been done to death and it only causes flames.
 

Woodsey

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Aug 9, 2009
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Piracy is stealing, stealing is a crime. Disputing that fact is moronic.

I'm sick of the "try-before-you-buy"; "I can't afford it, but what difference does it make?"; "Why do corporations deserve my money?"; "DRM made me do it!" bullshit arguments.
 

xHipaboo420x

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Apr 22, 2009
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Must we?

This argument has been done to death in the blogosphere. You're either for it or against it, and nothing that people on The Escapist say will change that.
 

SteinFaust

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Jun 30, 2008
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Gilbert Munch said:
SteinFaust said:
i just don't feel that i have to pay 22USD for a cd with one or 2 good tracks on it so that _______ can have a new Lamborghini.
This is the worst arguement for piracy I've ever heard, and for someone not entirely against it it's quite hard to make me think that. If you honestly think every musician could buy a Lamborghini then, well... you're very, very wrong.

And why not just buy individual tracks?
lambo is an exapmle. they otherwise piss away money.
i'm not FOR piracy, i just don't care, and get my music however it's convenient.
i couldn't give a 2 dollar Bangkok F(_)cK about anybody's 'cause'.

EDIT:also, i don't buy tracks because i like to manage my music. the programs are too invasive and aggravating to me.
 

Sev72

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Apr 13, 2009
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*Sigh* To summarize. Piracy is stealing. You are depriving a company of money for their product, I am not sure what stealing is if it isn't that.

Everyone brings up the argument that people are pirate games are just "testing the game" they are making sure that the company made a good product etc... Really? How many people once they have a game will actually go out and buy it because they now think it is good?

Lets figure half, that sound like a huge overestimate but we will just use it as an example.
MW2 had 4.1 million illegal downloads on the PC (these stats come from Torrent Freak who say they get them from torrent trackers). Simple math says that Activision lost 123 million in revenue due to piracy. I would say thats a rather large sum of money.

I think I will just save this and copy paste it into any other threads that pop up.
 

Nikajo

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Feb 6, 2009
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I feel the moral side of piracy is somewhat ambiguous. I don't feel that everybody who pirates is a bad person, it doesn't actually bother me that much.

However it is a crime because it's breaking copyright laws. That's kind of the reason those laws exist. You can make any justification you like - like I said, I honestly could not care less. But it is a fact that you are breaking the law. If that doesn't bother you then don't worry about it!
 

fenrizz

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Feb 7, 2009
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Sev72 said:
*Sigh* To summarize. Piracy is stealing. You are depriving a company of money for their product, I am not sure what stealing is if it isn't that.

Everyone brings up the argument that people are pirate games are just "testing the game" they are making sure that the company made a good product etc... Really? How many people once they have a game will actually go out and buy it because they now think it is good?

Lets figure half, that sound like a huge overestimate but we will just use it as an example.
MW2 had 4.1 million illegal downloads on the PC (these stats come from Torrent Freak who say they get them from torrent trackers). Simple math says that Activision lost 123 million in revenue due to piracy. I would say thats a rather large sum of money.

I think I will just save this and copy paste it into any other threads that pop up.
Avtivision did not lose 123 million.
There is no proof that even one of those 4.1 million would have bought the game if it had not been available for downloading.
 

BehattedWanderer

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Jun 24, 2009
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Regardless of how done to death these subjects are, I find myself amused by the issue of warrants. We should technically be protected from illegal searches and seizures, which certainly go on. Any evidence claimed during an illegal search and seizure ceases to be valid in a court of law. A return to civil liberties and rights would be nice.

Though, politically, I believe in the convenience that downloading offers. Paying the same price for some digital code that I can use as much as I want as I would for a physical product that gets made in a factory by humans and machines that all have associated costs is ridiculous. The two are not equivalent, but are assumed so. Were there a way to purchase just the digital rights for use, at appropriate cost of just the digital product and not the physical materials and similar aspects, I would use that instead of downloading. I have no issue paying for my media, but I will not pay for things I will not use, or for the maximized profit of dirt-cheap materials being marketed at 200 times their value. As a man who staunchly believes in equity, I cannot abide by this idiotic rule.
 

Sev72

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Apr 13, 2009
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fenrizz said:
Sev72 said:
*Sigh* To summarize. Piracy is stealing. You are depriving a company of money for their product, I am not sure what stealing is if it isn't that.

Everyone brings up the argument that people are pirate games are just "testing the game" they are making sure that the company made a good product etc... Really? How many people once they have a game will actually go out and buy it because they now think it is good?

Lets figure half, that sound like a huge overestimate but we will just use it as an example.
MW2 had 4.1 million illegal downloads on the PC (these stats come from Torrent Freak who say they get them from torrent trackers). Simple math says that Activision lost 123 million in revenue due to piracy. I would say thats a rather large sum of money.

I think I will just save this and copy paste it into any other threads that pop up.
Avtivision did not lose 123 million.
There is no proof that even one of those 4.1 million would have bought the game if it had not been available for downloading.
Well you can't prove it either way, but let me put it a different way: They lost (in my example) 123 million in revenue on a product that was used, but not paid for.

To bring it back to the argument at hand: So if wasn't free they might not have gotten the game? That is logical and does indeed make sense. But why should they get to play the game for free when I have to pay $60 for it? If you say well you could just pirate too and then applied that logic to everyone then no one would get to play video games or listen to music because there would be no money to produce it.