Poll: Let's Discuss Piracy

[Flying-Emu]

It has annoying DRM you don't like, you don't get it.

Hypothetical situation: I buy a game that has DRM that requires me to be connected to the internet at all points (a la AC2). I proceed (after purchasing the game) to pirate a copy without that silly DRM feature. Am I in the wrong? After all, Ubisoft (for example) gets their money, and I get my hassle-free experience?

(Note: I personally think that this is of dubious legality and questionable morality, I'm just curious to see your opinion )

 

[Sougo]

lol, piracy is like having a pretty girl seducing you with a sign hanging over her head..."Do Not Touch, property of ___ - your loving government."

There are loads and loads of sites with pirated content. If it bothers our governments so much why don't they make the active effort of banning these sites. If downloading from youtube is against the law, why isn't youtube against the law?

I buy my games proper, but is the same really even possible for music?

 

[Dys]

Without a clear definition of piracy this thread is rather pointless...

I can see both sides to the argument in general, but tend to be sympathetic towards the 'pirates' cause simply because of the blatant lies told as a matter of course on the end of those against it. Also the over the top DRM employed to stop them. Make better games, charge less and people will opt to buy them, simple as that.

 

[Steppin Razor]

It has annoying DRM you don't like, you don't get it.

Hypothetical situation: I buy a game that has DRM that requires me to be connected to the internet at all points (a la AC2). I proceed (after purchasing the game) to pirate a copy without that silly DRM feature. Am I in the wrong? After all, Ubisoft (for example) gets their money, and I get my hassle-free experience?

(Note: I personally think that this is of dubious legality and questionable morality, I'm just curious to see your opinion )

Legally, cracks and such fall into a sort of grey area. Morality wise, so long as Ubisoft got their money I don't have that much of a problem with someone geting a crack for it. You're going around an annoying feature, but you're supporting the people that put time and effort into making the game.

Besides, it was more as a point that if you hated the DRM and wouldn't pay for a game with it, then you don't get it. A lot of people seem to think that if something has DRM they don't like, they're entitled to pirate it.

Without a clear definition of piracy this thread is rather pointless...

I can see both sides to the argument in general, but tend to be sympathetic towards the 'pirates' cause simply because of the blatant lies told as a matter of course on the end of those against it. Also the over the top DRM employed to stop them. Make better games, charge less and people will opt to buy them, simple as that.

Except they don't. I agree that DRM is ridiculous and only serves to hurt the people that actually buy legit copies, but removing it won't stop people from being cheapskates and pirating everything. Sins of a Solar Empire had no DRM and was a brilliant game but that didn't stop people from pirating it.

 

[mrpenguinismyhomeboy]

Then again, piracy is in effect, stealing. You are taking something that you are legal required to pay for and not paying for it, except for maybe internet charges.

But that isn't the definition of stealing. Stealing is taking something that isn't yours, in the process depriving someone of that item.

Not that piracy isn't bad, it's just something else entirely from theft.

Alright, fair point, but you are still acquiring something through illegal means. It's a different type of stealing. You are stealing hypothetical profits. It is immaterial theft.

But then you reach the other problem, what if the person never would get the software if there was a price attached? In that case you aren't stealing profits, you are stealing nothing.

They have no right to download it and use it sure, but that in itself is not enough to say that they have stolen profits.

I highly doubt the millions of people who have photoshop illegally would buy it if they couldn't pirate it, after all most people who download it just dick around and give up.
In that case it isn't theft, as they havent deprived adobe of the software, it isn't immaterial theft, as they havent removed profits, and it is illegal, but morally blank. Easily arguable to either side of the spectrum.

But...uh...BLAGHAGSHASGAS!!!

I give up. You're completely right. I mean, in no way is it actually stealing, and to me its not copy right violation, and this brings up the question, what the hell is piracy? and if we don't know what it is, then why are we talking about it?

 

[Arcticflame]

But...uh...BLAGHAGSHASGAS!!!

I give up. You're completely right. I mean, in no way is it actually stealing, and to me its not copy right violation, and this brings up the question, what the hell is piracy? and if we don't know what it is, then why are we talking about it?

Hehe, You've hit the nail on the head imo. Piracy is a generalised buzz word thrown around a lot by various people (myself included) which attempts to simplify many complex situations, it's rather pointless to discuss in such broad terms. A guy who sells a thousand CD's of a game he burnt in his garage is piracy, but so is a guy downloading a movie that he owns on VCR and wants a better copy of.

Also BLAGHAGSHASGAS back to you!

 

[Devour]

As for the infinite copy thing; too fucking bad. If they decide that they want to give lines of 0's and 1's a price, and they coded those lines, you pay it, and you pay what they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. It's that simple. It's capitalism. Get used to it.

It's not theft.

Get used to it.

 

[Flying-Emu]

As for the infinite copy thing; too fucking bad. If they decide that they want to give lines of 0's and 1's a price, and they coded those lines, you pay it, and you pay what they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. It's that simple. It's capitalism. Get used to it.

It's not theft.

Get used to it.

Actually, it is. Theft is defined as taking something that doesn't belong to you. Ergo, taking a game that you haven't paid for is theft.

 

[Flying-Emu]

As for the infinite copy thing; too fucking bad. If they decide that they want to give lines of 0's and 1's a price, and they coded those lines, you pay it, and you pay what they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. It's that simple. It's capitalism. Get used to it.

It's not theft.

Get used to it.

Actually, it is. Theft is defined as taking something that doesn't belong to you. Ergo, taking a game that you haven't paid for is theft.

but they're not taking it, they're copying it. There's a clear an appreciable difference between the two.

If you seriously believe that, then I have nothing to say to you.

 

[Catalyst6]

On a note: I love how internet piracy is considered a federal and fairly heinous crime when just walking into the store and stealing the thing is pretty much a slap on the wrist.

 

[Kagim]

My problems with the pro Piracy arguments... Prepare for Wall of text.

"It doesn't do any harm"

I won't argue whether the point above is true or not. I have heard numbers ranging from 1% income loss to 30%.

No, my problem with that statement is that if applied to almost anything else it would be wrong. Lets take Pop for instance. Using rough estimates from my time making orders in a general store the average cost to owner of a single 600ml bottle of pop is roughly $.65. Meaning you could steal 100 bottles of pop and the store would only lose $65. That is quite honestly a scratch and can be easily written off. Hell, take my time at Mcdonalds. A large pop at Mcdonalds literally costs the owners four cents for both pop and cup. Now tell me is it wrong to steal either pop off a shelf or pop off a counter at Mcdonalds? Would you clarify it as stealing? It does no harm at all. Mcdonalds would likely not even notice the loss of profit and i have recorded more loss of profit from shit falling down then shit being stolen. Does that make it right? "I can take whatever i want as long as no one is directly hurt!"

"I wasn't going to buy it / the game wasn't any good."

Alright. This one seriously hurts my head. If you weren't going to buy it why did you download it? Your basically saying "Well i had no interest in the game so i spent eight hours downloading it and another four playing it." That's like saying you hate chocolate cake in between mouth fulls of chocolate cake.

Most importantly it creates an envelope clause for stealing anything. Want that game? Alright just announce to yourself you weren't going to buy it and download away! All you have to do is keep raising your standards till a game can't possibly reach it and then bam, instant justification. Once more lets use a physical argument. Take the pop from my above statement. Is it alright to take a pop from a store simply because you wouldn't buy it otherwise? "I don't want a coke so that means its alright for me to have one without paying for it!"

"It's to expensive!"

I work at Mcdonalds. I make $9.50CAD an hour. I have to pay bills just like everyone else. So why am i magically able to buy games? New release games in Canada can be all the way up to $80. I can attest that you can go without video games for a little while.

My major problem with this one is it makes it sound like you need the video games. That without them death is sure to follow. This is not only a weak argument but one that might mean you need to go the hell outside for ten minutes. What hurts it even more is games generally fall a whopping $10-20 after about two months for me. So all you need is patience. More importantly just because you can't afford something doesn't give you the right to it. "I can't afford a new car so I'll just take this brand new 2010 BMW and I'll buy it when the price comes down."

On a side note: After learning that people stole games that not only could be purchased for as cheap as a penny. A penny that would go to charity. Using the website itself own servers to steal it with. This excuse kinda lost any credibility.

"I don't want to pay $XX on a crappy game"

Buyer Beware. Videos, Demos, screenshots and reviews can all create a picture of what the game is like. Yes, you still sometimes get screwed but that's life. Rather then stealing why not take legal steps toward creating peoples right to make returns? Or is that to much work?

"I just want to test the game first!"

This is another one of those in a perfect world kinda things. In a perfect world where people could be trusted to buy any game they enjoyed this would be okay. Sadly i have seen people decide to not buy games after finishing it for little to no reason. Despite having hours of fun they take one small problem and exaggerate it to avoid paying for the game.

"I'm doing it because of the DRM!"

Is the equivalent of robbing a store because of security cameras. If there was no piracy there would be no way to justify DRM of any sort. Stop pirating and DRM will die. Keep pirating and PC gaming is going to keep taking hits. Which is a more bolder statement. "New game has dismal sales due to crappy DRM!" or "New game has Dismal sales due to high piracy rate!"

If you pirate a game because of its DRM you give companies the means to use the latter statement. A bold statement against bad games and DRM is not buying it or pirating it. By pirating the game you are essentially saying "I like your game buy i don't want to pay for it".

"Piracy isn't stealing because your not creating a direct loss. That makes it okay."

Wow. Okay two major problems with this one.

1)"Raping someone isn't arson because your not setting anything on fire. That makes it okay."

2)Under that argument that means its perfectly okay for your boss to just not pay you for your time and effort at work because its not creating a direct loss. When you work all your are losing is time and effort. By not paying you, you technically are no poorer by your bosses actions then before. He hasn't taken a single thing from you. He has just decided not to pay you for your 40 hours of labor. Is that okay?

"I wouldn't mind people pirating my creative property because it means i would get free advertising!"

This statement is mind blowingly easy to make when you know your never going to be in that position. If you have never put in the months upon months of effort and money to create a video game or movie or even a book or producing a cd then you can't say anything either way. It's kinda like Hamlets wife. "I would pull the baby from my tit and bash its brains in if you asked me"(Not the exact quote)This is made by Hamlets childless wife when trying to convince him to murder so he can be king. In essence she is saying she would have no problem doing something despite knowing she has nothing to fear from being asked to do it, she has no child.

Now, i am not going to lie. I used to pirate as a teenager. Then i grew up. Even as a teenager though i could still afford to buy things(i had a paper route that paid $90 a month). It wasn't because of a lack of money but by a lack of caring. Yeah, i said all the excuses above then to. Whenever i pirated music and movies i would just say "If i like it I'll buy it." Guess what? I rarely did. Only now am i going back looking for the movies and music i wrongly stole.

Today i have no pirated material on my hard drives. I purchase everything. When it comes to games i check out demos or read up on the game or talk to friends about it. With movies i either see it in theaters or check out trailers. I almost never get burned on bad games. I grew up.

 

[oranger]

I juuust can't help but weigh in...argh...
"piracy", otherwise known as unauthorised copying, in my country is not a crime.
This is because of two things: thing the first, you cannot bind someone to an agreement or contract without prior consent. This means the EULA, copyright notices and any other notices that are shown post-sale do not apply.
Thing the second, IP is a question of ownership. So long as I can prove that I never claimed to have made the IP myself, and that the product was SOLD to me rather than leased or rented without an agreement, I would have a stiff defense in civil court.
Which is why the courts quite intelligently don't bother with this crap here in Canada.

 

[Gindil]

As for the infinite copy thing; too fucking bad. If they decide that they want to give lines of 0's and 1's a price, and they coded those lines, you pay it, and you pay what they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. It's that simple. It's capitalism. Get used to it.

It's not theft.

Get used to it.

Actually, it is. Theft is defined as taking something that doesn't belong to you. Ergo, taking a game that you haven't paid for is theft.

Actually, No [http://www.cracked.com/article_18513_5-insane-file-sharing-panics-from-before-internet.html]

If the richest man in the world got to where he is from copying code, then I doubt the world will end when someone else copies something. (Read #3 Pirating Basic...)

Sadly, no matter how much you show that file sharing is only an imagined evil, there will be people decrying that it will kill every industry.

 

[loremazd]

You are taking something that the company is charging for, their property, and benefiting from it. Sounds like theft to me.

Then you're an idiot.

Do you really not understand what I am saying?

When you say theft, you say a word with multiple concepts packed into it. Theft is a complex idea, and it has multiple components.

I will put down a couple propositions for you, very clearly:

A: Theft means I gain your thing, and you lose your thing.
B: Copyright Violation means I gain your thing, but you do not lose your thing.

Do you understand these two ideas? Do you understand how they are different from each other?

Assuming you understand that:

C: Piracy means I gain your thing but you do not lose your thing.

This means Piracy is the same thing as Copyright Violation. It means Piracy is not the same thing as Theft.

Let's move on:

D: In Piracy, even though you keep your thing, I gained it from you for free. I might have bought your thing instead. So by doing the Piracy and getting your thing for free, you "Lose A Sale".

This is a little more complicated, but I needed to say it. Part D is where a lot of people think the Piracy becomes Theft. But Copyright Violation already has the idea of a Lost Sale in it. If you do Copyright Violation, it is a crime, but it is not Theft.

Conclusion: Theft is a thing. Copyright Violation is a thing. Piracy is Copyright Violation. Piracy is not Theft.

I cannot make this any clearer for you.

People like this hide behind technicalities. The "Copying isn't theft" song is probably the most annoying piece of this trend.

The "ideas you are sharing" weren't your ideas, so you stole and distributed someone's idea. Copywright violation is the stealing and distribution of someone's protected ideas, so it is just a name for that type of -theft-.

So once and for all: COPYWRIGHT VIOLATION IS THE NAME FOR A TYPE OF THEFT!

 

[Sikachu]

This topic will not end well. Let me just say that piracy, no matter how you see it, is stealing. I don't care how people try to sugar-coat it by claiming 'try before you buy' or other such bullshit, because you know full well it's stealing.

Whether this stops you doing it or not is another matter, but just don't try to call it something it's not. Admit, and accept that you're a thief who steals their games.

The base of 'stealing' is depriving someone of the enjoyment of their thing. Copying a game isn't denying anyone anything. Unjust enrichment? Certainly. Stealing? No.

 

[Kagim]

I juuust can't help but weigh in...argh...
"piracy", otherwise known as unauthorised copying, in my country is not a crime.
This is because of two things: thing the first, you cannot bind someone to an agreement or contract without prior consent. This means the EULA, copyright notices and any other notices that are shown post-sale do not apply.
Thing the second, IP is a question of ownership. So long as I can prove that I never claimed to have made the IP myself, and that the product was SOLD to me rather than leased or rented without an agreement, I would have a stiff defense in civil court.
Which is why the courts quite intelligently don't bother with this crap here in Canada.

The thing about the Eula. There is a reason why you have to hit the "I agree" button before you can use the product. Otherwise your right the EULA has no effect. If you accept to agree with the EULA, which is the case in PC games.

As for computer copying...

30.6 It is not an infringement of copyright in a computer program for a person who owns a copy of the computer program that is authorized by the owner of the copyright to
(a) make a single reproduction of the copy by adapting, modifying or converting the computer program or translating it into another computer language if the person proves that the reproduced copy is

(i) essential for the compatibility of the computer program with a particular computer,

(ii) solely for the person?s own use, and

(iii) destroyed immediately after the person ceases to be the owner of the copy; or
(b) make a single reproduction for backup purposes of the copy or of a reproduced copy referred to in paragraph (a) if the person proves that the reproduction for backup purposes is destroyed immediately when the person ceases to be the owner of the copy of the computer program.

In other words, if you do not legally own that copy of the program, or if you forfieght rights of the product, you are committing copyright infringement. Bolded for emphasis.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-42/page-3.html#anchorbo-ga:l_III-gb:s_27 scroll down to computer programs.

 

[Icecoldcynic]

This topic will not end well. Let me just say that piracy, no matter how you see it, is stealing. I don't care how people try to sugar-coat it by claiming 'try before you buy' or other such bullshit, because you know full well it's stealing.

Whether this stops you doing it or not is another matter, but just don't try to call it something it's not. Admit, and accept that you're a thief who steals their games.

The base of 'stealing' is depriving someone of the enjoyment of their thing. Copying a game isn't denying anyone anything. Unjust enrichment? Certainly. Stealing? No.

Yeah yeah yeah sugar-coat it all you want. I don't know why you can't admit that you're STEALING the game from the developers. If you made things to be sold, and someone made a cheap digital copy and gave it away for free, would you be okay with that?