Poll: Let's Get Some Honesty, Shall We? (Regarding Big Breasts/Sexy Female Game Characters)

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Yuuki

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Tzatziki3301 said:
Basically, absent from the debate about sexuality in games and the way it is expressed in visual art styles, all these characters are grotesques, and if drawn as some parody art of Dungeons and Dragons and displayed in a cartoonists' folio on deviant art, no-one would be batting an eyelid.

The thing most out-of-proportion here is not the breast size... it's the hoo hah.
Y'know you're right, now that I've seen some of that developers' previous work it's pretty obvious that that's simply how they like their art. For me it all looks pretty grotesque (as you said), especially their women...but that's just what they seem to DO. I've seen far weirder shit in the name of art, not to mention their skill with a paintbrush is still admirable.

At first I was misguided, thinking that they were trying to make characters extra-sexy or extra-beautiful by exaggerating features and attempting to increase their appeal to us (the gamers). But it doesn't look like that's what they're pursuing at all, they're just drawing these characters however the hell they want and rolling with it o_O
Definitely not our average developer at all.
 

maninahat

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krazykidd said:
I like how peopel talk as if EVERY woman in EVERY game is a sexy big boobed woman . We need diversity , and guess what , we have it . We have games with women that look different . This is a non-issue . For every big breasted woman in a game there is a small breasted woman in another game .

Anyways , we are arguing about the wrong thing . The true problem , is the lack of plus sized women in games . I can't think of one other than the chick in Borderlands 2 and Queen Brahne Raza Alexandros XVI from Final fantasy 9.
Sounds like you are defeating your own argument: "We have diversity...there is a lack of plus sized women". To add, there is also a lack of unattractive women, women over 28, and female characters in proportion to males. Female characters are most diverse in terms of chest size and "kind of hot" they are.
 
Feb 24, 2011
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When i see a woman with big tits in a game, i don't even care anymore.
It's been like this forever in video games.
and i'll certainly defend anyone who gets attacked because they dislike big boobs in video games, but i don't find it horribly offensive.
That being said, gaming in general need more women in their game with sensibly proportionate boobs, just to make it fair.
 

The Hero Killer

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Its alright if its apart of the aesthetic of the game like Dragon's Crown or Dead or Alive, but if I'm playing something like the Last of Us or the Tomb Raider remake where they were trying to go for a more realistic Lara and shes jumping around with 32F's then something's not right.
 

Yuuki

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Yaaay that makes 300 votes for "I prefer them that way". Feels like some kind of accomplishment :p
 

blank0000

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You have a loaded poll to respond to. I think most people like sexy things. I think what you are referring to is the idea of sexualized characters in games, and if you feel they are acceptable.

Me personally, I get miffed when I see a ton of blatent "sexy to sell it" stuff in games. It's insulting to me as a consumer, and I feel it can reflect poorly on the hobby I choose to support. I don't want to constantly be in a position where I'm trying to justify or validate certain elements of games. Sexy is good, sexy is a part of life! But how you portray "sexy" and it's roll in a game, THAT is a very important factor.
 

SushiJaguar

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I like big jugs, and I like big cocks. They're both just as nice to look at. A girl's body curving like an hourglass with a bubbly ass and an above-average pair of tits is just as appealing to the eye and libido as a muscular bloke with a larger-than-average penis.

On the other hand, waifish, feminine boys are as cute and adorable as a girl of similar build is. That's my personal taste in the physical form, so I have absolutely no problem at all with art styles or anything like that. From what little I've seen of this whole mess so far, I'm quite confident to state that too many people are whining about the threat these designs and such have towards women. To those people I give a resounding middle finger. For a long time, men have been equally portrayed in an unrealistic and "harmful" light, because I'll ask any heterosexual woman whether she prefers, say, Cmdr. Shepard's rough and rugged masculinity over a more average man, and I can guarantee you that the general consensus is going to be in his favour.

Does this make me feel invalidated as a man? Do I feel like I have any less rights? Of course not. Those characters are often designed thar way /because/ there are people out there who like to look at those types of body. That's fair enough, nobody is being threatened by that or being oppressed by that. It's when you find that designs are drawn up just because of some actual grudge against women or some actual desire to mock them (or men), that you should feel demeaned and looked down upon. It isn't the video game designers and artists you need to go after, it's the people around you whom actually express a chauvinistic or whatever the opposite term is.

Frankly, the only thing I see as a threat to me, as a man? Feminazis. End of story. I'll happily discuss whether or not exaggeration of the physical form in media is harmful or condusive to a gender-inequal mindset...but let's just keep the zealots away from both sides of the table.

P.S EDIT: Boudiccea(sp) is often drawn with and said to have been a fiercely beautiful woman with assets beyond the norm. Didn't stop her from kicking the shit out of people with war paint all over her body and little else.
 

CloudAtlas

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blank0000 said:
You have a loaded poll to respond to. I think most people like sexy things. I think what you are referring to is the idea of sexualized characters in games, and if you feel they are acceptable.

Exactly. The wording of the poll is problematic in several ways, and likely to distort the results.


What Are Your Feelings Towards Big Breasted/Sexy Female Game Characters?
a) I honestly prefer them that way.
b) I honestly can not stand them that way.
c) I do not prefer them that way, but they do not offend or upset me either.
# You should not equate "big breasted" with "sexy". What am I supposed to answer if I like sexy female characters, not not big breasted ones?
# Answer b) is a more extreme statement than a), and that's distorting. If you want to ask this question, b) should read "I honestly don't prefer them that way". The way b) and c) are worded, you're lumping all people who have a preference against them, but not a strong one, and are not offended by them, together with the people who don't care at all either way. And that seems like a pretty important distinction to me. The conclusion that most people don't care either way is not valid; all you can say is that most people don't have very strong preferences.
# The question itself misses the point. If you take the words at face value, and do not infer the probably intended question from the context, the question is basically useless. After all, why should anyone dislike characters of one's referred sex that match what they consider as sexy, or attractive, in a game? That would be almost tantamount to saying that you want to see only want ugly men or women. A more appropriate question would thus be: "What are your feelings towards sexualized female game characters?" Well, at least it's not as useless a question as the one asked. Since barely anyone actually have a problem with some degree of sexualization, but just with (what they regard as) obvious/heavy/blatant sexualization, that's where you might draw the line.

The OP doesn't need to feel too bad about it though. How to design proper polls and questionnaires, proper in the sense that they capture the truth as good as is possible, is still an important subject in statistics, behavioural economics, psychology and related fields, and you'll see even high profile institutions violate good practice all the time.
 

TKretts3

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As a guy who isn't attracted to women, I find that I have a different reaction to big breasted, or scantily clad females in video games. Since I don't stare at women's breasts like a deer in the headlights, when they are big, massive floppers, I can't help but to laugh at the absurdity. When a women is wearing just a bikini & bra into battle, and that somehow grants her as much protection as a full suit of armour, or a bullet-proofed vest, then it makes me laugh even more. This, I find, is a determent to the game. Yes, I like laughing, but I'm trying to play the game seriously, get immersed in it. having something as ridiculous as the aforementioned features just ruins it all - it breaks the immersion, and takes away from the tone of the game.

In reaction to the Dragon's Crown Sorceress and Amazon, they made me physically sick. I'm not even joking. The person in this thread who compared the cleavage of the sorceress to 'very large fleshy tumors attached to her chest' which appear to be alive, was absolutely on the ball. And the Amazon's entire body... Only one word can describe those models - grotesque.
 

DataSnake

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How about a compromise? A female character with tits like the Sorceress and as much personality and agency as Farah, Elizabeth, or Alyx Vance.
 

lapan

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DataSnake said:
How about a compromise? A female character with tits like the Sorceress and as much personality and agency as Farah, Elizabeth, or Alyx Vance.
Doesn't seem enough for some of the people i had that discussion with.
 

Tzatziki3301

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DataSnake said:
How about a compromise? A female character with tits like the Sorceress and as much personality and agency as Farah, Elizabeth, or Alyx Vance.


Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I give you... Mia Fey.
 

Johnny Impact

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Perhaps the measurements of women in games instills unrealistic expectations, but so does every other form of media at pretty much all times. Games are a tiny facet of the real issue. Walk past the magazine section in your local supermarket. Examine the covers. You won't see a single normal person. All the women are perky, sculpted, athletic, elaborately made-up creatures, and all the men are improbably muscled Greek heroes (or, if your supermarket has wrestling/biker mags, improbably muscled Greek villains). I did this experiment myself yesterday and the most prominent cover featured a shredded, shirtless Hugh Jackman tensing every oiled muscle. A space alien getting its first images of humanity off magazine covers would have a very skewed vision of both sexes.

The melon-sized boobies you see on so many female characters are outrageous things that no woman should have. I think it's ridiculous that developers continually present us with females who gained their proportions after being bitten by radioactive porn stars. It's not attractive, it's just silly.

On the other hand, I find objects like Marcus Fenix equally ridiculous. Men don't look like that. Hell, bulldogs on steroids don't look like that.

Here's the thing, though: It's okay for characters to look and act ridiculous. To a degree, it's necessary for the medium.

How many people would play (or, more importantly, buy) a game where the protagonist was a dumpy, zit-faced nineteen year old, and the only action was working his shitty job at Burger Palace? No violence, no plot twists, no action, no discovering he had superpowers, just being unpleasantly passive-aggressive for two ten-hour shifts, then the game ends. I don't think that would sell (I could be wrong; Cooking Mama has sold over 12 million units.....)

Games give us giant boobies on women, but they also give us plasma rifles, giant robots, and all manner of things that don't exist. Games are fantasy. This fantasy appeals to us. Reality often does not. We buy things that appeal to us. This is what game companies are really out to do. They are selling a product. They do this by including features they think their audience wants. In most cases, they're right.

Marcus Fenix's appearance is fiction, and we know it. The player, whether male or female, is supposed to buy into the fiction. That's what the game is for: escaping into a place were we can be a gravel-voiced ass-kicker with power armor and a face like a lump of granite. Sports fans pretend they are their favorite quarterback, gamers pretend to be Spider-Man.

When we've finished, we put the fantasy down and go back to our lives. No harm done. I've run over more people than I can count in Steelport, and it has no bearing on anything I do in real life. I would never expect to murder two hundred people and simply hide in my house to make the police lose interest. I would never expect a woman to have perfect gravity-defying boobs and exist only to be looked at.

If women are going to be offended by a female character wearing a thong, they should also be offended by the perfect, taut muscularity and chiseled jaw of your typical male character. Women are bothered by female characters with proportions 99% of women could never attain. It stands to reason they should be bothered by male characters with proportions 99% of men cannot attain. I find this doesn't happen.

Case in point: I saw Thor in a crowded theater. When the big fella appeared sans shirt, the women gasped, whistled, made catcalls....I didn't hear a single woman's voice saying, "That is objectification, and it bothers me." The only person I know had a problem with it is a guy friend of mine who, quite frankly, sounded petty and jealous when he referred to Hemsworth as "man-candy" and said the shirtless scene ruined the whole movie for him.

Female characters wear less, are posed provocatively, etc. Yes, this is true. I'm not saying there is nothing to argue against. I'm saying argue against all of it. Or argue for the inclusion of scantily clad, musclebound male characters who exist to be ogled.

I think the real problem is loss of perspective. It's just not that big of a deal. Is the objectification of women in games a problem? Maybe. Is it a problem the way, for example, domestic violence is a problem? Not remotely. Does the existence of big-breasted female characters lead directly to serious problems? Does the lack of genuine personality, the failing of the Bechdel test, and so forth undermine the entire female gender? I don't see how. Again, you get much of this with males. Marcus Fenix is one-dimensional, Gordon Freeman lacks any dimension at all (and, I should point out, is accompanied by an empowered, realistically proportioned woman with real personality), the vast majority of male leads don't have any personality or desires beyond a couple clichés. I grant that we don't see these characters pole-dancing, but the idea that shallow representation in media is like a boot pressing down on all women, everywhere, all the time, is simply wrong.
 

Eve Charm

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The thing is, Unless they look overly sexy, or look like a down right freak, or have a great personalty or something else that is basically " their thing" characters really don't stand out much, and are forgettable. People are going to remember the Dragon's crown characters, but have already forgotten muramasa and odin sphere characters look like. People have remembered the DOA girls, but really try and remember what the non MIA girls of King of fighters, virtual fighter, and hell tell me about any of the new tekken or street fighter characters.

There are 100's of npc's in most modern rpgs but you only remember a handful that stand out and break the mold. Sex is quite possible the easiest way to do it.
 

Bruce

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How many people would play (or, more importantly, buy) a game where the protagonist was a dumpy, zit-faced nineteen year old, and the only action was working his shitty job at Burger Palace?
That, actually exists. Heck I think it is a bit of a genre in casual gaming.
 

Badger

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Nickolai77 said:
Badger said:
Sex sells - always has. I just wonder what it'd be like if the shoe were on the other foot? I mean, what if ladies made up the biggest buying demographic and bulging, jiggling male "anatomy" was all the rage? Just wondering...
It's an interesting question but male and female sexuality isn't directly comparable. Generally speaking male sexuality is more visual and focused just on appearance- whereas female sexuality is more about context and behaviour of the male character as much as it is their appearance. That's why there isn't a direct male equivalent of 50 Shades or Twilight.

On topic- scantly clad female characters with bulging breasts do annoy me on videogames. I feel it encourages the player as well as the developer to conceive the character as being nothing but eye-candy, as opposed to an otherwise intriguing and engaging character which could enhance the gaming experience. It isn't hard to capture a male players attention with a sexy female body- but it takes real artistic talent to capture the attention of the gamer through a well developed and interesting female character. So in a way i feel overly sexualised female characters is a cheap and lazy way of attracting a male audience.

Obviously though it depends on what sort of game you're trying to make. If it's a game like Lollypop Chainsaw Massacre then what i've said is a moot point. But if it's a game trying to be more serious then i think it spoils the game a bit for me. And of course, it is possible to create interesting female characters with tits the size of lemons (Lara Croft) i'm just speaking in general terms here.

Here's another question to underline my point: How many people here would honestly want the kind of female armour you get in MMO RPG's like Terra to be default in the Elder Scrolls games?
I totally agree with your 'cheap and lazy' comment - well said. And perhaps I didn't articulate my point properly, which was meant to infer that both the gaming industry in general, and gaming males in general, don't account for the potentially offensive, even damaging, portrayal of overtly sexualized females. Just as I would be disquieted by lewd male anatomy being viewed by my young daughter, I'm sure she'd feel the same way about my indulging the latest Skyrim porn armor. Again, my point, which you make so much more clearly, is that this sort of characterization engenders disrespect, and quite possibly offense, at a level we're all too desensitized to.

Thanks again for your perceptive clarification. And yes - I'd be disappointed if the Elder Scrolls stooped to that.
 

Yuuki

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Badger said:
I totally agree with your 'cheap and lazy' comment - well said. And perhaps I didn't articulate my point properly, which was meant to infer that both the gaming industry in general, and gaming males in general, don't account for the potentially offensive, even damaging, portrayal of overtly sexualized females. Just as I would be disquieted by lewd male anatomy being viewed by my young daughter, I'm sure she'd feel the same way about my indulging the latest Skyrim porn armor. Again, my point, which you make so much more clearly, is that this sort of characterization engenders disrespect, and quite possibly offense, at a level we're all too desensitized to.
I don't know why over-sexualization is considered "taboo" for some people considering it has existed since pretty much the birth of art & media (with games coming waaaaaay later).
If you showed your young daughter the revealing Skyrim armor mods (not the "woo nude genitalia!" mods - just the sexy armor), she wouldn't react to it if she considered it as something that was just a part of media. A child doesn't have per-conceived notions about anything, children don't decide what is offensive and what isn't - it's purely adults.

Imagine a society where pretty much anything is acceptable. Public nudity is the norm, wearing clothes is optional, people openly talk about sex, homosexuality is accepted as just a regular thing and children know about ALL that stuff from a young age. They don't know it's implications as deeply as adults obviously, but they know that it's just a part of life and adults don't keep going "OMG DON'T LOOK AT THAT!" every minute. Do you think said hypothetical society would take offense to games or media with over-sexualized characters? Simple question.

Over time we have become a very tolerant and accepting society (though not as free-minded as described above), enough for only 18.4% of people in this MASSIVE poll (almost 1500 votes so far) to take offense/become upset by over-sexualized females. The remaining 82.6% either prefer not seeing it but aren't upset/offended over it OR want to see more of it.

The main thing here is that people want to see more depth given to fictional characters instead of sex appeal as their sole selling point - well-written characterization needs to be given higher priority, sex appeal needs to be the icing on the cake.
Basically this all ties into the overall quality of narrative in gaming, that quality is lacking compared to narratives in other media like books and movies.
 

Yuuki

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Mar 19, 2013
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Badger said:
I totally agree with your 'cheap and lazy' comment - well said. And perhaps I didn't articulate my point properly, which was meant to infer that both the gaming industry in general, and gaming males in general, don't account for the potentially offensive, even damaging, portrayal of overtly sexualized females. Just as I would be disquieted by lewd male anatomy being viewed by my young daughter, I'm sure she'd feel the same way about my indulging the latest Skyrim porn armor. Again, my point, which you make so much more clearly, is that this sort of characterization engenders disrespect, and quite possibly offense, at a level we're all too desensitized to.
I don't know why over-sexualization is considered "taboo" for some people considering it has existed since pretty much the birth of art & media (with games coming waaaaaay later).
If you showed your young daughter the revealing Skyrim armor mods (not the "woo nude genitalia!" mods - just the sexy armor), she wouldn't react to it if she considered it as something that was just a part of media. A child doesn't have pre-conceived notions about anything, children don't decide what is offensive and what isn't - adults make those decisions.

Imagine a society where pretty much anything is acceptable. Public nudity is the norm, wearing clothes is optional, people openly talk about sex, homosexuality is accepted as just a regular thing and children know about ALL that stuff from a young age. They don't know it's implications as deeply as adults obviously, but they know that it's just a part of life and adults don't keep going "OMG DON'T LOOK AT THAT!" every minute. Do you think said hypothetical society would take offense to games or media with over-sexualized characters? Simple question.

Over time we have become a very tolerant and accepting society (though not as free-minded as described above), enough for only 18.4% of people in this MASSIVE poll (almost 1500 votes so far) to take offense/become upset by over-sexualized females. The remaining 82.6% either prefer not seeing it but aren't upset/offended over it OR want to see more of it.

The main thing here is that people want to see more depth given to fictional characters instead of sex appeal as their sole selling point - well-written characterization needs to be given higher priority, sex appeal needs to be the icing on the cake.
Basically this all ties into the overall quality of narrative in gaming, that quality is lacking compared to narratives in other media like books and movies.

Super-sexy females are not the main problem in gaming gender issues, as the poll very clearly shows, it's super-sexy females being nothing more than that.

I believe all of this is heavily linked to how game development teams consist of roughly 85-95% male developers, it's the most obvious explanation to why we see such a heavily male-based perspective in gaming narrative. This is combined with the fact that the overwhelming majority of "serious" gamers/nerds are also male. The end result is that games/media with over-sexualized females extremely easy to sell to the general gaming demographic, and neither the developers nor the consumers are to blame. The situation is only running it's it's natural course - whatever sells easily will continue to be made, there is no stopping it.

Change is happening, but it will be extremely slow/gradual and no amount of criticism coming from overly-offended/easily-offended feminists is going to speed things up on the grand scale of things.

(But that shouldn't stop people from criticizing it anyway, go for it, I encourage it, etc)
 

Gluzzbung

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Nov 28, 2009
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Developers can almost literally play god, what excuse do they not have for indulging whatever fantasies or ideals of beauty they hold?