Poll: Let's Get Some Honesty, Shall We? (Regarding Big Breasts/Sexy Female Game Characters)

[Flames66]

In a heavily stylised game like Dragons Crown it makes sense, although I think some of the art in that example is not that great. Personally I prefer games with well developed characters, but it doesn't offend me and I can enjoy over the top sex appeal.

 

[Norithics]

Look. It's very simple.
Anything in moderation.

Nobody really cares that it happens; just that it happens too much.

 

[Cecilo]

The only problem I have with the entire thing is that I hear that things should not exist, should be removed, or otherwise censored. You want things to be done your way, and that is fine, but don't put your ethics, and morality into games that don't have your ethics and morality, I am sure there are other games that cater to what you want, go play those.

It goes for everything, just like the people that were outraged when the XCom reboot was going to be a FPS with Strategy elements added to it, people got pissed off, and rightfully so. You want to have it your way, there are other things that cater to your way, enjoy those, stop trying to impose what you want onto everything, that is all.

And I am not saying all people do that, not at all. I guess I am just getting jaded with all the arguments. Sexism, Racism, Bias, Bad News in general, it's all starting to blend together and it is just losing it's meaning when there is a controversy every day.

 

[generals3]

Look. It's very simple.
Anything in moderation.

Nobody really cares that it happens; just that it happens too much.

Maybe you should stop going out of your way to actually come in contact with those games. I have 3 games with oversexualized women and played 3 (if you can't tomb raider I & II & III as games with oversexualized women) in my life and yet i'm still capable on enjoying gaming on a daily basis.

There are probably more than 40k games out there. If you can't find enough games without T&A you must be really trying your best not to find them.

 

[Quadocky]

I think its awful. It really needs to stop.

Developers need to be more honest about sex and sexuality.

 

[Norithics]

Maybe you should stop going out of your way to actually come in contact with those games. I have 3 games with oversexualized women and played 3 (if you can't tomb raider I & II & III as games with oversexualized women) in my life and yet i'm still capable on enjoying gaming on a daily basis.

There are probably more than 40k games out there. If you can't find enough games without T&A you must be really trying your best not to find them.

I... wait, what?? Way to project an opinion on me that I didn't even give.

Anyway, you cannot bullshit me, because I actually love that kind of stuff. Because I love it, I seek it out actively, and from this collection, I can tell you that the ratio of reasonably dressed women to not is quite a wonky proportion. So I'm saying from my pile of stuff that I greatly enjoy, yeah. I could personally go without a few of them so that things could be just a little more reasonable.

So in other words, all the ecchi games and over the top stuff can stay (you couldn't get rid of it anyway), but cynical throwaway decisions like "our token female character should be in a bikini" can go. Not only because it's a cheap attempt to get more sales, but most often because the attempt is objectively terrible.

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

I don't buy games for well endowed women. In general that sort of thing turns me off to a game, mostly if it's focal. If it's just a sort of a sideline thing then I'm much more apt to be okay with it. Witcher (1) had a number of unrealistically busty townsfolk walking around the cities. This didn't bother me, I realized it for what it was, but it didn't throw me off.

 

[generals3]

I... wait, what?? Way to project an opinion on me that I didn't even give.

Anyway, you cannot bullshit me, because I actually love that kind of stuff. Because I love it, I seek it out actively, and from this collection, I can tell you that the ratio of reasonably dressed women to not is quite a wonky proportion. So I'm saying from my pile of stuff that I greatly enjoy, yeah. I could personally go without a few of them so that things could be just a little more reasonable.

So in other words, all the ecchi games and over the top stuff can stay (you couldn't get rid of it anyway), but cynical throwaway decisions like "our token female character should be in a bikini" can go. Not only because it's a cheap attempt to get more sales, but most often because the attempt is objectively terrible.

My apologies. I wrongly assumed that since you wanted less of it you didn't like it.

But here's the thing: you seek these things out actively, off course you're gonna see lots of it. That's normal.

I would also like to add your statement was relatively vague as such i slightly misinterpreted it. I saw it as "there are too many oversexualized women in games" which is obviously very different from "many of the females in games are oversexualized".

However i'm still inclined to believe many people who complain about it are simply doing it wrong. If all i wanted to play were korean MMO's i'd probably see lots of bikini armor, but it would be my own fault for actively wanting a game genre which overuses it. 40k+ games... If one can't avoid T&A in this industry they're doing it wrong.

 

[Lieju]

If one can't avoid T&A in this industry they're doing it wrong.

Well, if you just played sports-games for example, maybe. Or something like CoD, no icky girls there.

My issue isn't that there are big boobs and sexualisation everywhere, it's that finding female characters that are sexy but not objectified, and in general finding mature or interesting depictions of sexuality is so hard.

 

[generals3]

but not objectified, and in general finding mature or interesting depictions of sexuality is so hard.

I think this is more an issue of poor writing in general. Games being about gameplay first tend to de-invest in the writing part. It's like Michael Bay movies where it's first and foremost about explosions and story after.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see Hideo Kojima's in the industry (to take an extreme), but unfortunately I think the industry has deemed the ROI on story to be lesser than gameplay and thus good written games will remain a niche.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I also find the fetishisation of female breasts - like in DoA or various animes - rather gross. The breasts in DoA are rarely realistic - not in size nor physics - so I find them laugh-inducing at best and actually disgusting at worst. But that game is not geared towards people like me, neither design nor gameplay, so I solve that problem by simply not buying it, and let other people have at it.

But it makes me sad and a bit ostracised when games that do not set out to be primarily about "BOOBIES!!!" still crowbar it in there in character design that do not suit the character (IMHO at least) and unnecessary camera angles.

It makes you wonder why they even bother putting in the effort to design the women at all.
Why don't they cut out the middle-man and just make all the characters in the game floating pairs of jiggly tits. It seems like unnecessary effort to design hair and faces for the tit-carriers.

Lets be honest, they'd probably have the same level of personality as those kinds of characters anyway.

 

[Norithics]

My apologies. I wrongly assumed that since you wanted less of it you didn't like it.

But here's the thing: you seek these things out actively, off course you're gonna see lots of it. That's normal.

Ah, the old confirmation bias. I've considered that, but there's something else about me: I like to play as female characters whenever possible regardless of cheesecake appeal. So I also get a great big helping of the whole pot, and it definitely tastes a little raunchy.

I would also like to add your statement was relatively vague as such i slightly misinterpreted it. I saw it as "there are too many oversexualized women in games" which is obviously very different from "many of the females in games are oversexualized".

Text is super limiting. What I wouldn't give for some kind of intonation.

However i'm still inclined to believe many people who complain about it are simply doing it wrong. If all i wanted to play were korean MMO's i'd probably see lots of bikini armor, but it would be my own fault for actively wanting a game genre which overuses it. 40k+ games... If one can't avoid T&A in this industry they're doing it wrong.

I believe Lieju answered that one pretty well. It's not that you can't avoid it whole cloth; it's that it's very hard to avoid it if you just happen to want to play as a woman. Which shouldn't be the case. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm gonna buy Bikini Beachball Low-grav Simulator 9 all day, but the reason why I'm going to is that it does that really well! In those games, the programmer, modeler, artist, writer and everybody else are all going for exactly that full tilt, and the quality of it is usually pretty good! Most games that feature 'fanservice' on the side really aren't that good at it, and should focus those energies elsewhere- because it comes off as terrible to me, corny to most women and invisible to the vast majority of guys who are just numb to it by now because of the sheer crappy volume of it.

 

[Wintermute_v1legacy]

Never understood my anyone would care if someone was offended? If you don't like something, don't buy it, you don't have any right not to be offended though, nor influence the product beyond the effect of you not buying it.

And people don't have a right to lobby for games being made the way they prefer it?

Right to lobby? Maybe... harass, bully and sneer at those who are just trying to exercise their right to make the game they want, from a self appointed "moral high ground", less so I'd say.

The "-ism" brigade are very vocal but definitely a minority even on here where they are far, far more prevalent than in the real world... The poll shows some people don't agree vehemently and most people don't care.

Caving in to vocal minorities who set themselves up as "moral" is an increasing worry in the modern world; not just the far left "-ism" brigade but the old school right wing, everyone's at it - it's no longer enough to have an opinion and ignore what you don't like, now you have force it on everyone else through... lobbying...

I agree entirely. This is one of the most sensible posts I've read here on the whole SEXISM TITS WOMEN MISOGYNY! debate. Oh well, we're living in a time where everyone is offended by everything, might aswell find something that offends me.

I guess that means I'm pretty indiferent, OP. Do these characters look silly and out of place? Yes. Do they bother me? No.

 

[Lieju]

but not objectified, and in general finding mature or interesting depictions of sexuality is so hard.

I think this is more an issue of poor writing in general. Games being about gameplay first tend to de-invest in the writing part. It's like Michael Bay movies where it's first and foremost about explosions and story after.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see Hideo Kojima's in the industry (to take an extreme), but unfortunately I think the industry has deemed the ROI on story to be lesser than gameplay and thus good written games will remain a niche.

I don't consider Kojima to be a great writer, though. His writing of female characters especially can be problematic. (Boss was cool, though)

But there is a problem with writing in the industry, and putting random badly written female characters in is a part of the problem. But just saying 'well, video-game writing sucks' isn't really all that constructive criticism.

Quite often it's not even the writer who makes these decisions on the character-design.
Quite often, for example, the decision is made to use the same body-model for all female characters, which leads to lack of diversity. And for example old ladies having the same big boobs every other woman does.

 

[Kobra581]

Honestly I find it rather off-putting, to the point if too much is attention is drawn to it (like in the case of Dragon's Crown) refusing to buy it entirely, not out of a mean spirited spite of the game itself (in fact from what ive seen the actual game looks awesome!) but that's just the thing up to the release of Dragon's Crown I heard NOTHING about Dragon's Crown besides this. The only way I found information about it was from specifically searching for it, which may be only my own personal problem with finding info but nevertheless it makes me feel as though if I buy this product I myself would be adding to this practice, I feel with how apparent it is in games such as dragons crown its pandering to me ("me" being a heterosexual male). As far as the art style reason in Dragon's Crown I do not feel that is an excuse, especially as it seems as though this practice is used repeatedly throughout the game. I do understand that it makes sense for art style to reflect in character design but at the same time even this reason has its limits and Dragon's Crown

note: sorry if I over referenced Dragon's Crown here but with all the talk of it I felt it would be the most recent and most beneficial point of reference

 

[generals3]

I don't consider Kojima to be a great writer, though. His writing of female characters especially can be problematic. (Boss was cool, though)

But there is a problem with writing in the industry, and putting random badly written female characters in is a part of the problem. But just saying 'well, video-game writing sucks' isn't really all that constructive criticism.

Quite often it's not even the writer who makes these decisions on the character-design.
Quite often, for example, the decision is made to use the same body-model for all female characters, which leads to lack of diversity. And for example old ladies having the same big boobs every other woman does.

You're right. It wasn't constructive criticism. But I wasn't really going for it either this time. However I don't believe throwing the word sexism around like many do is any more constructive. What is constructive is just giving an honest opinion and saying how one would make it better without needing to appeal to guilt or sensationalism.

Problem is that when it comes to debates about females in games it pretty much devolved to guilt tactics and sensationalism.

 

[Lieju]

I don't consider Kojima to be a great writer, though. His writing of female characters especially can be problematic. (Boss was cool, though)

But there is a problem with writing in the industry, and putting random badly written female characters in is a part of the problem. But just saying 'well, video-game writing sucks' isn't really all that constructive criticism.

Quite often it's not even the writer who makes these decisions on the character-design.
Quite often, for example, the decision is made to use the same body-model for all female characters, which leads to lack of diversity. And for example old ladies having the same big boobs every other woman does.

You're right. It wasn't constructive criticism. But I wasn't really going for it either this time. However I don't believe throwing the word sexism around like many do is any more constructive. What is constructive is just giving an honest opinion and saying how one would make it better without needing to appeal to guilt or sensationalism.

Problem is that when it comes to females in games it has pretty much devolved to guilt tactics and sensationalism.

I'm just kinda tired of the stock 'well, video-game writing sucks overall, what you're gonna do?'-response, whenever depictions of sexuality, or women, or homosexuality is brought up.

If something sucks, it helps analyzing it from different perspectives. Like how character's sexuality or gender shouldn't define the character.

The discussion of sexism in gamer-community is pretty shit, though.
Sensationalism in general is a problem, but what would you consdier these 'quilt-tactics' to be?

 

[generals3]

I'm just kinda tired of the stock 'well, video-game writing sucks overall, what you're gonna do?'-response, whenever depictions of sexuality, or women, or homosexuality is brought up.

If something sucks, it helps analyzing it from different perspectives. Like how character's sexuality or gender shouldn't define the character.

The discussion of sexism in gamer-community is pretty shit, though.
Sensationalism in general is a problem, but what would you consdier these 'quilt-tactics' to be?

Trying to devolve the the discussion to sexism and all the possible implications is the guilt tactic. Instead of trying to push devs to make things because they want it to people are trying to guilt them into it. I do not condone such tactics.

"I'm just kinda tired of the stock 'well, video-game writing sucks overall, what you're gonna do?'-response, whenever depictions of sexuality, or women, or homosexuality is brought up."

And i'm tired every time sexism and appeals to higher morals are unfairly being brought up. Constructive debates are impossible when one side is trying to appeal to a higher moral ground to give their opinion more value than anyone else's. They are trying to transform the issue in a one sided debate.

Hopefully someday this fad will fly away and we can discuss games in a more constructive manner.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Grrr... I am completely calm damn it! Completely!

The rape threat people are idiots in the extreme; I wonder how someone could write something like that, I really do, but the "who's the worst argument" just ends up with everyone being bad. It reminds me of a relationship I once had but that's a different tale...

You seem pretty balanced, others I've read less so - there is definitely a difference between a cogent response (such as yours) and the lynch mob mentality adopted by the "-ism"ers on occasion. I think it's the assumption of an unassailable moral high ground thing that gets on my nerves, the substitution of an argument for the relevant "-ism" and and then the ensuing sense of superiority.

Thanks for the compliment, although I'm a bit hesitant to accept it. Because all those feminists out there making statements so much more radical than mine, well, I kinda never met them. Or, in other words, what the overwhelming majority seems to want is no less 'balanced' than what I do.

However, I have to admit that some debates seem to be more fruitful than others.

I must admit it's actually really hard to argue against, "Better characterizations, better storytelling, attire that fulfills its purpose and thus is more immersive..." because it sounds so reasonable.

Not long ago, Pope Francis said:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: We will meet one another there."

As catholic on paper and agnostic in spirit I really liked this statement. And I do believe that, in this debate, there is such a place where we can meet another too: We all, and I hope nobody takes offense at this generalization, want games that tell good stories. Good stories need good characters, interesting characters, characters that can be taken seriously. Walking stereotypes, of any gender, are not interesting. A homogeneous cast is not interesting. And so on.

If me meet in this place, then there will still be Dragon's Crown. There will still be DoA Beachvolleyball. There will still be Tera. And you'll still be able to spend all your gold on whores in The Witcher 2. And, yea, there will still be people complaining about those games, and, at times, I'll be one of them.