Poll: LotR: Does Sauron deserve to win?

[Thaluikhain]

There's a line in "Return of the King" where a guard says:

"It is as the Lord Denethor predicted. Long has he foreseen this doom."
And Gandalf says, angrily:
"Foreseen and done nothing."

Which is fair enough, Denethor doesn't seem to have prepared very well[footnote]He's sending covert forces into enemy territory, though, which is more than any other ruler does.[/footnote]. Only...Gandalf has been doing his thing for many, many generations before Denethor was born. And he hasn't done much either.

Elrond reminds Gandalf that he was at the battle against Sauron, and that evil could have been destroyed then. And then, having total military dominance, he sits around waiting for 3,000 years doing not much of anything, watching Sauron rebuild his forces and doing nothing to stop him. Likewise, all the other independent kingdoms sit around ignoring the problem.

In the first part of the Hobbit, when Gandalf is at the council at Elrond's place, and tries to get anyone to doing anything about anything, they tell him they won't because they are "at peace". The Necromancer is probably just a common or garden evil magician, the orcs and trolls running round attacking people are probably not part of anything bigger...so they should be ignored. Ah huh.

The elves also seem to have the exact same equipment as they did in their last fight with Sauron, they've not progressed one bit in 3,000 years.

OTOH, Sauron is busy building fortresses, getting legions of orcs together, he now is in charge of several human kingdoms, he's developing or sponsoring development, he's getting leaders on side and creating networks of spies and assassins. You know, actively working on things. Sure, a giant battering ram in the shape of a big fiery animal might not be the most practical of things, but he's trying.

While everyone else had stagnated, and refused to take action on events directly concerning them, he was the only dynamic, progressive (in certain senses) ruler there was. I mean, yeah, he was evil, but apart from being "not evil", the other lot seem to have nothing much going for them. Anyone who falls asleep at the wheel for three millenia...yeah, I'm losing sympathy for them.

 

[Ryotknife]

Eh, the only way to stop it is either pre-emptive strikes or do what the allies did in WW1 and try to shatter the nation completely.

Either way, you have lost the moral high ground and the "good guys" are no longer good, just slightly less of a jerk than Sauron. Pretty sure a lot of the people in the world are pissed at the US preemptive stance/activism

Course, that doesn't explain the lack of progress especially among the humans. Elves makes sense since they seem to like the status quo.

 

[Darks63]

In short no since all he would have had to do to insure the ring couldn't have ever been destroyed and hence making his victory a certainty was blocking the entrance to Mt Doom or putting a guard station or monsters ready to ambush at the entrance. I mean seriously a portoculus could have stopped Frodo and Sam cold since they were at the end of their rope when they finally arrived.

 

[Reed Spacer]

You guys think Sauron was bad, Morgoth brings it to a whole new level.

Sauron was his lieutenant

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Except they didn't. They did all sorts of stuff, like hunt dragons or sail away on boats. There's also all kinds of evil things that aren't Sauron, some of which were dealt with while Sauron wasn't around. They also built forts all around Mordor to deal with the Orcs, which the Orcs later captured. On top of that, it was only in the previous few decades that it became apparent that Sauron was coming back. Also, Sauron's a dick, so he obviously shouldn't win.


His comment about Denethor has to do with the fact that Denethor knew that the Orcs were getting worse (as did Gandalf, who actually did do stuff to deal with it, like killing Smaug) but all he did was try and groom his favorite son to be his successor and live in a constant state of despair while refusing to ask anybody else for help.

 

[EternallyBored]

Thematically, the whole progress schtick with the villains in LOTR was Tolkein kind of venting his frustrations with his own personal experiences throughout his life. Tolkien grew up in England before the start of World War I, he Eventually served with the military in the war and saw direct combat, He saw some of the worst of trench warfare, and the absolute horrors industrialization and technological progress brought to Europe. He eventually returned home to a much more industrialized country, and often wrote his lamentation on how the forests and meadows he played in as a child had been paved over to make way for factories to fuel the war effort for WWI and WWII. While not anti-technology, his personal correspondence and speechs did indicate that he was an opponent of technological advance that served no purpose but to kill those around us and was a vocal critic of the Allied total War policy in WWII, although he still served as a codebreaker in WWII.

More to the point, Sauron is everything wrong with progress, he is progress for only himself at the harm of everything around him, Saruman is blinded by progress and exercises it only to wage war, it is progress only far enough to burn down the world around them. In that case, no, the LOTR villains don't deserve to win, because their "progress" doesn't actually have an end goal that benefits anyone other than themselves. Yes, the good guys, especially some of the leaders, did a lot of sitting on their laurels, but that doesn't mean the bad guys deserve anything, just because they make a few better weapons, and invent some technology just so they can kill people better or faster. Middle Earth is kind of stagnant, but I'll take stagnant peace over progress that ends up with me enslaved or killed any day of the week

 

[FalloutJack]

I'm gonna go with 'No', actually, much as I like the evil.

Because, you see, even before all the battles, the planning, the craftiness, and everything...Sauron lost at a critical moment because his Ring of Power, the source of his power and immortality, could be quite easily disabled. All the things that happen afterwards, props for recovery without actually having a body. However, this could have all been simplified if the One Ring were not so easily accessable.

Look at the nine Ring-Wraiths, human kings turned to creatures of darkness forever bound through their own rings to the One Ring. Where are their rings now? In someone else's hands? No. They have them, somewhere. They're just not where anyone can destroy them. Sauron should have made his Ring and fused it to his skull or something, which is under a helmet. Then, all would know his power and none would stand a chance against him.

Suffice it to say, because of all the crap going on with Saruman, Rohan, Gondor, and all...the final victory should belong to the ORCS.

 

[Tom_green_day]

You know these are fictional characters right?
It's a basic tale of good v evil, of course the good should win. The point of the story is victory through perseverance, despite all odds- hope and faith and effort and all that jazz.

 

[Reed Spacer]

Suffice it to say, because of all the crap going on with Saruman, Rohan, Gondor, and all...the final victory should belong to the ORCS.

Dem Orkz kik everbuddy's arse!

Boot rite to da hedd!

 

[FalloutJack]

Suffice it to say, because of all the crap going on with Saruman, Rohan, Gondor, and all...the final victory should belong to the ORCS.

Dem Orkz kik everbuddy's arse!

Boot rite to da hedd!

Well, let's just face it: They do all the goddamn footwork. Yeah, Sauron organizes them, but when you have ten thousand of your own kind, you really just have to march them from one end of the country to the other and kill everything that moves. Sauron might've made their efforts a little easier in some cases, but he hasn't gotten off his ass in generations...because he HAS no ass.

 

[IceForce]

Sauron was a complete idiot. He could've simply blockaded the entire mountain, and there's no way the ring would've been able to get through, no matter who was carrying it.

But instead he sends his armies out to meet the comparatively small opposition force at the Black Gate.
The Black Gate is the biggest and strongest gate in the land. There's no way anyone was getting through there. And he left the mountain completely undefended.
He should've just left the gate closed.

Also, more than once, the ring has been right under Sauron's nose, and he didn't even notice. He even thought the wrong hobbit had the ring.
He didn't even realize how close the ring was to the fires of Mount Doom, until it was actually inside and Frodo put the ring on, and it was too late.

So no, Sauron didn't deserve to win.
Say what you will about the forces of good, but Sauron and the forces of evil were stupid beyond imagining.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Ah ye olde "The end justifies the means." or translated "this is my excuse to use everyone as stepping stones".
Hey if you like to conform then go right ahead but anyone who doesn't want to join your nonsense you let be, which of course was never the intent in Saurons case so his lizard cyclops eye had to be snuffed out.

 

[Asita]

Sauron was a complete idiot. He could've simply blockaded the entire mountain, and there's no way the ring would've been able to get through, no matter who was carrying it.

But instead he sends his armies out to meet the comparatively small opposition force at the Black Gate.
The Black Gate is the biggest and strongest gate in the land. There's no way anyone was getting through there. And he left the mountain completely undefended.
He should've just left the gate closed.

Also, more than once, the ring has been right under Sauron's nose, and he didn't even notice. He even thought the wrong hobbit had the ring.
He didn't even realize how close the ring was to the fires of Mount Doom, until it was actually inside and Frodo put the ring on, and it was too late.

So no, Sauron didn't deserve to win.
Say what you will about the forces of good, but Sauron and the forces of evil were stupid beyond imagining.

It didn't make it into the final cut of the movie, but if memory serves Sauron was led to believe that Aragorn (who revealed himself as heir to Isildur's line) had come into possession of the Ring, thus inspiring both his attack on Minas Tirith and subsequently meeting Aragorn's armies at the Black Gate. It wasn't just riding out to face a threat, he thought that was where the Ring - embodying both the bulk of his power and his only true weakness - was being held.

 

[hazabaza1]

He may be the one producing the most development and jobs but he's also got this key issue where he's a giant evil arsehole. That isn't so great for gaining my support.

 

[Auberon]

Last time Ainur intervened directly, they sunk Beleriand. So limiting the Istari to guidance is common sense. The elves ballsy enough to fight Sauron died in the First Age when Morgoth was around, and Men strong enough were running out too.

But on the question posed, Tolkien wrote classic Good and Evil. Obviously, Evil never triumphs by genre conventions.

 

[Lucyfer86]

I always wondered why didn't Sauron launch attack to both Helm's Deep and Gondor AT THE SAME TIME.
Evil forced would have overwhelmed the forces of good.
So since he didn't do that, i don't think Sauron would have deserved to win anyways..

Also, why no guards at Mount Doom? He knew ring was being carried, and not a single guard there.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Also, why no guards at Mount Doom? He knew ring was being carried, and not a single guard there.

In the books, it's explained that the idea of destroying the mighty source of power would have been totally alien to him, so he couldn't predict it.

That makes perfect sense, a lot of big disasters are caused when leaders of one nation don't understand the way leaders of another think.

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

as for the elves, etc not progressing along with the other good races. you do realise the theme of the books was the encroachment and destruction of the natural, small towns and villages by industry?

the area tolkien grew up was farmland and when the industrial revolution hit full stride, well soot, smoke, coal fires, etc

to him the way the shire was, the way the elves lived was the ideal and didnt need to progress hence it was stagnant and was threatened by industry "the orcs"

The industrial revolution started over a century before Tolkein was born.

Admittedly, industrial parts of the country where awful compared to the areas devoted to farming, as can be witnessed in Orwells writings from the period and the stereotype of it being 'grim oop North', and that was not helped by the two wars which required maximum productivity. But it was more the results of the previous century of pollution than it 'gearing up'. If anything, Tolkeins generation saw the first attempts to limit enviromental and social damage from industry.

The UK is still full of farmland, as is obvious to anyone who's driven along the motorway. Heck, you can see it on google maps. There are a bunch of population centres and then everything else is green and yellow squares.

 

[EternallyBored]

as for the elves, etc not progressing along with the other good races. you do realise the theme of the books was the encroachment and destruction of the natural, small towns and villages by industry?

the area tolkien grew up was farmland and when the industrial revolution hit full stride, well soot, smoke, coal fires, etc

to him the way the shire was, the way the elves lived was the ideal and didnt need to progress hence it was stagnant and was threatened by industry "the orcs"

The industrial revolution started over a century before Tolkein was born.

Admittedly, industrial parts of the country where awful compared to the areas devoted to farming, as can be witnessed in Orwells writings from the period and the stereotype of it being 'grim oop North', and that was not helped by the two wars which required maximum productivity. But it was more the results of the previous century of pollution than it 'gearing up'. If anything, Tolkeins generation saw the first attempts to limit enviromental and social damage from industry.

The UK is still full of farmland, as is obvious to anyone who's driven along the motorway. Heck, you can see it on google maps. There are a bunch of population centres and then everything else is green and yellow squares.

Tolkien wouldn't have seen those attempts until after WWII, since most of Britain's gearing down and environmental policy happened after the wars, and LOTR was published around 1948 so it came before any of the green movement got started, the majority of the environmentalist movements and policies were seen by the generation after his, he was an old man by the time he saw any of that.
Tolkien also witnessed the horror and destruction of trench warfare in WWI directly, so he pretty much saw some of the worst results of the industrial revolution. He directly wrote about lamenting the fact that many of the fields and forests he played in as a child were cut down to build factories for the war effort, so the start date of the industrial revolution is irrelevant if he still saw the effects of it encroaching on where he grew up.