Poll: Male Gamers: Do you consider Kratos aspirational?

[DugMachine]

If I had his physique I'd be pretty damn happy but no I don't want to be a raged up killing machine.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

There's a couple problems your thread and the point you're trying to make.

First and foremost is that the "Aspirational" element is far less about character and more about appearance. Kratos is a murderous psycho, so obviously no one wants to BE him. It would be more fitting and clear if you said "Do you consider Kratos's physique inspirational."

Second, Kratos is supposed to be sort of a villain and he's got scars, weird tattoos and a bald head, so he's not even a good example for a physique.

Third, the argument I always see is different than the one you're presenting. Less "Male game characters are inspirational" and more "Female game characters make people feel bad because they unrealistic." So if anything, you should have said "Does Kratos make you feel inferior because he is an unrealistically gorgeous man?" I know he's not, but you get my point. I don't know though, maybe you're seeing different posts than me.

All that said, yeah it'd be awesome to have those muscles.

 

[FalloutJack]

Actually, as far as Spartans go, the role-model should be King Leonidas, as Kratos is a violent upsurge of wrath against the gods and his surroundings without direction. Spartans in of themselves have had purpose and a point, and they did not waver.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

His physique's alright though I don't know what I'd do with it other than watch it slowly waste away to where I am now and frankly I have a much more handsome face, those tattoos will just cause all kinds of problems (besides, they're not really that interesting, I'd rather have tattoos which mean something to me) and the ash colour is hardly enticing...

Otherwise well...gods no. The man is needlessly angry and pathetic, I find his approach to life unsustainable and childish and see no reason why I'd want to emulate a man so utterly drab and dull.

Now Nathan Drake...

 

[blackrave]

Impossible?

Have you ever worked out for months on end? Ever seen the inside of a Gym?

A lot of gamers seem to think characters with muscles = steroids and or impossible figure. I don't get it. That kind of physique is possible. Sure it's going to be extremely fucking hard. But eating right and a lot of weights goes a long way.

Actually yes, his physique is almost impossible
("almost" because there might exist few lucky bastards who could have such body)
Kratos combines strength of the strongmen with appearance of bodybuilder
That is where it gets complicated
With more/less intense training 99% of men could look like Kratos, but then strength wouldn't come even close to necessary
OR
The same 99% could concentrate on raw stength, but then they would end up looking obese (not really obese, because there would be muscles under fat, but still, upper layer would be fat)
Sadly unless you get really lucky with genetic material combination of both is impossible

 

[Dragonbums]

I find Garrus is more of an aspirational ideal, and he's a different species.

Garrus became the unintentional sex God of the entire Mass Effect fandom.

I don't think even the creators saw that coming.

 

[pearcinator]

Yeah, you can't get that big without doing roids...

Also he's an ugly, evil-looking bastard. Not the least bit aspirational. Garrus is hotter haha

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Yes, Kratos is a monster's monster. But even taking that into consideration I can least respect the character for making lemonade from the lemons he'd been given.

 

[BrownGaijin]

Haven't played much God of War myself, but from what I've gathered he's the Trevor Phillips of the Greeks.

Take it anyway you like it.

 

[scw55]

I find Garrus is more of an aspirational ideal, and he's a different species.

Garrus became the unintentional sex God of the entire Mass Effect fandom.

I don't think even the creators saw that coming.

I think it's because at the start of ME1, you have a Turian "companion" who's cool.
Who then gets killed by Saren.

You then meet Garrus afterwards and Garrus dislikes/hates Saren.

I think the reason players loved Garrus so much was that they didn't want to lose another Turian Friend. And also Garrus dislikes the character who murdered your first Turian friend.

Garrus is a rebound thing.
-
Good character development and writing in ME2 helped make him become popular for none-ME1 players.

Also, his voice *swoon*.

That's my theory.

 

[TheOrb]

Not really, he's a bit of a douche.
Now, I find Edmund Reid from the BBC drama Ripper Street to be a much better role-model.
And in terms of physique, his body has too much muscle in my opinion; not drastically unrealistic, but not aesthetically appealing for me. I would prefer to have a body with a good amount of core muscle strength, rather than that idealised crap that people strive for.

 

[KissingSunlight]

Considering the topic is vague, leading the question, and showing a profound misunderstanding of the power fantasy topic, you're probably not going to be getting any actually useful data out of this.

A power fantasy does not have to be about wanting to be like the character featured in the fantasy, Kratos is pretty much a textbook power fantasy, but I doubt many people actually want to be a genocidal monster on any realistic level. A power fantasy hinges around experiencing a sense of power, people like the visceral combat, they like that Kratos is a driven, competent, badass, and playing as him can give players a sense of power and control that thrills them. That's part of why the God of War games are popular, they present a fun sense of power that allows players to cut loose in ways they wouldn't or couldn't do in reality.

But people don't actually aspire to BE Kratos, they just like playing as him because he fulfills a sense of fantasy that people know is impossible or undesirable in a real setting. Now power fantasy characters can have aspirational traits, people may not want to be an ugly psychopath like Kratos, but they can find his determination and competence admirable. The existence of admirable traits doesn't really effect his status as a power fantasy though, so whether he is aspirational is irrelevant to his status as a power fantasy character. Plenty of deplorable villain characters (like the various GTA protagonists) can exist as power fantasies, they exist to give the player, reader, or watcher, a vicarious experience that we can't or won't experience in reality.

In relation to gender politics in gaming, the crux of the issue is that male characters are generally designed by, and targeted at Male audiences, while female characters are also primarily designed by and targeted at male audiences. The power fantasy argument crops up when people try to pretend Kratos running around shirtless is the exact equivalent to chainmail bikini armor and sexualization in female game characters, i.e. the: "See! male characters are sexualized too!" argument. The rebuttal to this is to state that skimpily dressed female characters tend to be sexual fantasies, while skimpily dressed male characters are power fantasies.

To elaborate, the key difference is intention and presentation. Kratos is shirtless to express his power and fighting ability, him showing skin plays into a narrative to make him look more powerful to players, the camera doesn't focus on his ass or try to paint Kratos as something female players should desire to have sex with. Conversely, Rachel from ninja gaiden poses for the invisible camera, and her outfit is in service to attempts to sexually excite the male players and audience, rather than trying to say anything about her character. In one case, the character exists primarily as a power fantasy, in the other, the character primarily exists as a sexual fantasy.

If the game was called Goddess of War, and Kratos was female. There will be accusations of sexism. She could do the exact same thing as Kratos did. People like you will complain of objectification and unrealistic portrayal of the gender.

The problem with your argument is that you are assuming intent of the game developers. The reason why you do that. Empirically, you can't distinguish the difference between how men and women are presented in games. Both men and women are portrayed as one dimensional characters only there to advance the gameplay.

 

[EternallyBored]

Considering the topic is vague, leading the question, and showing a profound misunderstanding of the power fantasy topic, you're probably not going to be getting any actually useful data out of this.

A power fantasy does not have to be about wanting to be like the character featured in the fantasy, Kratos is pretty much a textbook power fantasy, but I doubt many people actually want to be a genocidal monster on any realistic level. A power fantasy hinges around experiencing a sense of power, people like the visceral combat, they like that Kratos is a driven, competent, badass, and playing as him can give players a sense of power and control that thrills them. That's part of why the God of War games are popular, they present a fun sense of power that allows players to cut loose in ways they wouldn't or couldn't do in reality.

But people don't actually aspire to BE Kratos, they just like playing as him because he fulfills a sense of fantasy that people know is impossible or undesirable in a real setting. Now power fantasy characters can have aspirational traits, people may not want to be an ugly psychopath like Kratos, but they can find his determination and competence admirable. The existence of admirable traits doesn't really effect his status as a power fantasy though, so whether he is aspirational is irrelevant to his status as a power fantasy character. Plenty of deplorable villain characters (like the various GTA protagonists) can exist as power fantasies, they exist to give the player, reader, or watcher, a vicarious experience that we can't or won't experience in reality.

In relation to gender politics in gaming, the crux of the issue is that male characters are generally designed by, and targeted at Male audiences, while female characters are also primarily designed by and targeted at male audiences. The power fantasy argument crops up when people try to pretend Kratos running around shirtless is the exact equivalent to chainmail bikini armor and sexualization in female game characters, i.e. the: "See! male characters are sexualized too!" argument. The rebuttal to this is to state that skimpily dressed female characters tend to be sexual fantasies, while skimpily dressed male characters are power fantasies.

To elaborate, the key difference is intention and presentation. Kratos is shirtless to express his power and fighting ability, him showing skin plays into a narrative to make him look more powerful to players, the camera doesn't focus on his ass or try to paint Kratos as something female players should desire to have sex with. Conversely, Rachel from ninja gaiden poses for the invisible camera, and her outfit is in service to attempts to sexually excite the male players and audience, rather than trying to say anything about her character. In one case, the character exists primarily as a power fantasy, in the other, the character primarily exists as a sexual fantasy.

If the game was called Goddess of War, and Kratos was female. There will be accusations of sexism. She could do the exact same thing as Kratos did. People like you will complain of objectification and unrealistic portrayal of the gender.

The problem with your argument is that you are assuming intent of the game developers. The reason why you do that. Empirically, you can't distinguish the difference between how men and women are presented in games. Both men and women are portrayed as one dimensional characters only there to advance the gameplay.

Yeah, no, you completely missed the point on multiple levels. I never complained about sexualization, merely the false equivalence that sometimes gets brought up that so many male characters are being sexualized just like like female characters.

You know what game I like? Bayonetta, blatant sexualization everywhere, but the game runs with it and doesn't make any apologies for what it is, the devs don't try to pass her off as a feminist symbol with deeper meaning, they acknowledge that the character is there to titillate, and then go through the extra effort to flesh her out a little to at least give her a character arc. Not much, but she's an action game character, I'm not going to complain too much if she doesn't have some deep character arc. Oh and hey look, she's pretty much a female Kratos, just with less rage, and more taking her clothes off to use her moves, funny how Kratos doesn't need lingering shots on his abs and ass to use his finisher moves.

But there is a difference between Bayonetta and Kratos, You can harp on about making suppositions towards developer intentions all you want, but there's no argument when the developers make it clear what their intentions are. The Bayonetta developers came out and said that she was designed to be sexy and attractive, dangerous and alluring, the press releases were chock full of this type of description. Kratos never got described as sexy once, I don't need to be psychic to know that Kratos was not designed to titillate female or gay male gamers, some of those groups may find him attractive, but the camera and cutscenes don't support that intention like, well Bayonetta, Juliet, Rachel, really I can make this list really long if I need to.

Male characters are almost always designed by males for males, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, I'm a straight male, and I can appreciate some fan service from time to time. What I don't appreciate is people trying to take characters who are designed as power fantasies first, and try to equate them with sexualized characters, to dismiss the fact that some female gamers feel alienated when games insist on making absurd choices to appeal to the male libido.

There's legitimate points to be made in this discussion by both sides, freedom of art, prevalence of male developers versus female, freedom of developers to target the audience they want, and free market principles. Topics like this, that make false assumption and try to twist the argument into Kratos needing to be aspirational to count as a power fantasy, do nothing but poison the argument and set both sides further entrenched against each other.

 

[KissingSunlight]

.

If the game was called Goddess of War, and Kratos was female. There will be accusations of sexism. She could do the exact same thing as Kratos did. People like you will complain of objectification and unrealistic portrayal of the gender.

The problem with your argument is that you are assuming intent of the game developers. The reason why you do that. Empirically, you can't distinguish the difference between how men and women are presented in games. Both men and women are portrayed as one dimensional characters only there to advance the gameplay.

Yeah, no, you completely missed the point on multiple levels. I never complained about sexualization, merely the false equivalence that sometimes gets brought up that so many male characters are being sexualized just like like female characters.

You know what game I like? Bayonetta, blatant sexualization everywhere, but the game runs with it and doesn't make any apologies for what it is, the devs don't try to pass her off as a feminist symbol with deeper meaning, they acknowledge that the character is there to titillate, and then go through the extra effort to flesh her out a little to at least give her a character arc. Not much, but she's an action game character, I'm not going to complain too much if she doesn't have some deep character arc. Oh and hey look, she's pretty much a female Kratos, just with less rage, and more taking her clothes off to use her moves, funny how Kratos doesn't need lingering shots on his abs and ass to use his finisher moves.

But there is a difference between Bayonetta and Kratos, You can harp on about making suppositions towards developer intentions all you want, but there's no argument when the developers make it clear what their intentions are. The Bayonetta developers came out and said that she was designed to be sexy and attractive, dangerous and alluring, the press releases were chock full of this type of description. Kratos never got described as sexy once, I don't need to be psychic to know that Kratos was not designed to titillate female or gay male gamers, some of those groups may find him attractive, but the camera and cutscenes don't support that intention like, well Bayonetta, Juliet, Rachel, really I can make this list really long if I need to.

Male characters are almost always designed by males for males, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, I'm a straight male, and I can appreciate some fan service from time to time. What I don't appreciate is people trying to take characters who are designed as power fantasies first, and try to equate them with sexualized characters, to dismiss the fact that some female gamers feel alienated when games insist on making absurd choices to appeal to the male libido.

There's legitimate points to be made in this discussion by both sides, freedom of art, prevalence of male developers versus female, freedom of developers to target the audience they want, and free market principles. Topics like this, that make false assumption and try to twist the argument into Kratos needing to be aspirational to count as a power fantasy, do nothing but poison the argument and set both sides further entrenched against each other.

I agree there are legitimate points to be made about all the things you have listed. However, there are a few points I want to address about people who adamant that male characters only appeal to men and never, ever appeal to women.

I think it's sexist to claim that women can not be turned on by male videogame characters because *gasps* They were designed for a male audience by men. I know women will deny being turned on by male characters for various reasons. Such as not looking like a slut or just arguing disingenuously.

I used the phrase "people like you" as a weasely way to say, "not you specifically will complain about objectification and unrealistic portrayal of women." People complained about an early screen shot of Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite where she was wearing a dress that showed some cleavage. People cried out in outrage about how sexist that was. When it comes to this subject, some people are looking to complain self-righteously about sexism anytime there's a female videogame character. I believe they are doing it just to feel morally superior over other people. Instead of actually being concerned about addressing real issues of gender inequality. If they were concern about gender inequality, they wouldn't be wasting time on a videogame thread. They would be working hard against religious zealots around the world who are trying to keep women down.

When people are consistently outraged over every female videogame characters throughout history. (Seriously. Ms. Pac-Man has just recently been declared sexist.) You are severely undermining what you are trying to accomplish. Which is have more, positive, female characters and protagonists. I would like that too. However, what's a game developer to do when everything they try to do with a female character gets shouted down in a chorus of "SEXISM!"

One clue I have that people complaining about sexism are not that concerned about gender equality. They always try to dismiss any examples of bad male characters. Seriously, try putting characters like Kratos through the same exacting criteria that you put female characters through. They will not stand up as positive, aspiring, well-rounded characters that you demand female characters should be. So, if it's not too much trouble, how about advocating for better written male characters as well. Because, seriously, Kratos is a pretty sexist stereotype of men.

 

[EternallyBored]

I agree there are legitimate points to be made about all the things you have listed. However, there are a few points I want to address about people who adamant that male characters only appeal to men and never, ever appeal to women.

I think it's sexist to claim that women can not be turned on by male videogame characters because *gasps* They were designed for a male audience by men. I know women will deny being turned on by male characters for various reasons. Such as not looking like a slut or just arguing disingenuously.

Completely irrelevant, there is somebody out there that will find any character attractive, this does not mean that sexualization suddenly doesn't exist. People drawing porn of My Little Pony characters does not mean that those characters were designed or intended to attract its viewers sexually. Women finding Kratos attractive is incidental rather than intentional.

And no, women will often and freely admit when they find a character attractive, spend 5 minutes on a fanfiction website or forum, and witness the multitude of women talking about how they want to violate various male characters in a multitude of ways. Saying women don't admit to it out of shame or disingenuous intentions is intellectually dishonest.

The issue here is not just base attraction, it's that the game goes out of its way to present it that way. Again, Kratos may be attractive to some women, but unlike Bayonetta the camera doesn't focus on his abs in slow motion, and he doesn't lose his clothes so the camera can get a close in shot of his bare ass. That's the difference, people don't complain about Alyx Vance or Jade being oversexualized, but plenty of men find both those women attractive, just being attractive isn't enough to be considered sexualized, and a male character being attractive does not make Kratos the same as Rachel from Ninja Gaiden. Sexualization isn't actually that bad, many people, even some women like a little sex every now and again, but don't sit there and pretend that Kratos is a sexualized character just because some women might find him attractive.

As a final note here, I'm going to keep bringing it up, because this seems to be an issue with your entire post, but please stop strawmanning the arguments you're against, no one is claiming women can't be attracted to male characters. That's an exaggerated argument you inserted you you could make a smug "no you're the sexists here" quip. Nobody here has said that, and honestly, after 20 years on the internet, I have never seen anyone seriously say women aren't allowed to be attracted to male characters, and if you have seen any, please point them out so I can proceed to smack some sense into them repeatedly.

I used the phrase "people like you" as a weasely way to say, "not you specifically will complain about objectification and unrealistic portrayal of women." People complained about an early screen shot of Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite where she was wearing a dress that showed some cleavage. People cried out in outrage about how sexist that was. When it comes to this subject, some people are looking to complain self-righteously about sexism anytime there's a female videogame character. I believe they are doing it just to feel morally superior over other people. Instead of actually being concerned about addressing real issues of gender inequality. If they were concern about gender inequality, they wouldn't be wasting time on a videogame thread. They would be working hard against religious zealots around the world who are trying to keep women down.

So what? People complain about everything, some people complained about the new Lara Croft's breasts being too small in the reboot, and then proceeded to assert that it was "feminism gone wild". You know what I don't do? Extrapolate those people out to smear an entire argument, I don't try to paint the other side as dishonest because some people complained about a minor thing.

You believe they are doing out of a sense of self-righteousness, and just to feel morally superior? This is a massive assumption, and unless you are going around stalking people to find out who they are, it's a belief you seem to hold with no actual proof, and only seem to hold it because it allows you to more easily dismiss arguments or points of view you don't like.

Now please forgive me if I sound a little rude here, but this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. People aren't two-dimensional caricatures and are capable of caring about more than one thing. You assuming that the only thing they care about is video game feminism is disgustingly presumptuous. People are perfectly capable of taking a piddly 15 minutes to post on a forum, and then go donate money and spend more time helping out greater women's issues. I have donated to women's shelters, and been a part of advocacy groups to raise awareness about female genital mutilation in North Africa, I am capable of doing and caring about more than one thing at a time. I care about this issue because it's something I feel is worth making posts about, but, it's not anywhere near my top issues effecting women, and you know what, I don't think I've actually seen any other people in this topic complain about video game women being the number one issue facing women today, not even in the top 10 really. Have you actually gone around and asked these people that? Maybe find out if perhaps women in video games is just one thing they care about, amongst a multitude, or is this just another strawman argument where you just assume other people's intentions, because that makes it easier for you to dismiss their complaints.

When people are consistently outraged over every female videogame characters throughout history. (Seriously. Ms. Pac-Man has just recently been declared sexist.) You are severely undermining what you are trying to accomplish. Which is have more, positive, female characters and protagonists. I would like that too. However, what's a game developer to do when everything they try to do with a female character gets shouted down in a chorus of "SEXISM!"

I'm assuming you're referring to Anita with that Ms. Pac-man line. She wasn't declared sexist, she was pointed out as being a symptom of lazy character development that revolves around token female characters in games. I know Anita is supposed to be like the new Jack Thompson, enemy of all video games, but can we please at least maintain some intellectual honesty when dissecting her tediously shitty videos. Anita herself is on record saying the tropes she examines aren't all automatically sexist, she points out stuff she sees as problematic, you pretending she is just shouting "Sexism" at everything does more harm to your argument than hers.

And no, everything a game developer tries to do is not declared sexist. Nobody calls Alyx Vance or Jade sexist. Before Other M, pretty much nodoby leveled that criticism at Samus either, even with the bikini shots for beating the game, people overlooked it in favor of a female character that actually wore some non-sexualized armor. Lesse, the girls from both Resident Evil, and the Silent Hill series seem to be ok with the "internet feminist brigade". Ellie, and all the other female characters from the Last of Us seem to be a-ok with those evil feminists too. The uncharted girls seem to escape as well, despite being undeniably attractive, and even dressed a little skimpy at times, I wonder why that is? Maybe some of the women in the above paragraph drew some criticism for something, but if we paint even the smallest complaint as "See! look at all these feminists crying sexism at everything!" then don't be surprised when people on the other side make the same mistake you're making and lump you in with the small number of people crying about how video gaming should be a boy's club and all those bitches just need to shut up and make them a sandwich.

One clue I have that people complaining about sexism are not that concerned about gender equality. They always try to dismiss any examples of bad male characters. Seriously, try putting characters like Kratos through the same exacting criteria that you put female characters through. They will not stand up as positive, aspiring, well-rounded characters that you demand female characters should be. So, if it's not too much trouble, how about advocating for better written male characters as well. Because, seriously, Kratos is a pretty sexist stereotype of men.

No see here's another strawman, the people complaining about women's issues aren't dismissing issues with male characters, they are dismissing people who jump in to topics about women's issues and saying "But what about the men, why is no one talking about the men! Why won't you talk about the men!".

If you want to talk about issues with male characters in gaming, then create a damn topic for it, I keep suggesting it every time I see people complaining about it, if you want to talk about male characters in gaming, then do so without crashing threads created to talk about women's issues. I, and I'm sure many of the other self-proclaimed feminists, egalitarians, humanists, and others on this board would like to talk about male issues, if you can create the topic without making snide remarks towards female issues like this topic does, then you'll probably have a good discussion about it, that won't get derailed.

As for standards, I'll admit its laughable how wrong this is. Ask people who the best female characters in gaming are, and that list will usually include people like Chell, and Samus (pre-Other M). So basically, two mutes with close to zero characterization. There's so few memorable female characters in gaming, that people will lower their standards to put blank slate characters on their lists just because they actually wear sensible clothes and have breasts that are smaller than a D cup. It really is sad how low our standards are for female characters are sometimes, although in some ways there are male archetypes that aren't a lot better, even if they are represented in greater quantity.

 

[KissingSunlight]

Snip

1. People who are arguing that something in videogames are sexist consistently deny that a male character, such as Kratos, is sexually attractive. Even though, without that war paint on him, he looks exactly a male model you find on the cover of romance novels.

2. When I see people complain about videogames in the name of social justice, I shake my head in disgust. It's like complaining about candy bars. Then claiming you are doing so, because you are deeply concerned about world hunger. It's great that you do those other things. Yet, things you don't like about videogames are not important enough to call it a social injustice.

3. I refuse to watch anymore Anita S. videos. She has a pretty successful racket going by riling up her fans and detractors. I am not going to make her richer by continuing to click on her videos. So, I can debate the latest BS that she is spewing.

When you were made the list of female videogame characters that haven't been criticized. You forgot to add the word "Yet". If someone can make hay out of a yellow circle with a bow on it, then sooner or later they will get to those characters as well.

4. When people bring up how men are represented in videogames, they are putting the complaints about sexism into context. A good example of this would be when Anita S. claim Mario Bros. was sexist because Princess Peach gets kidnapped in every game. If you put into context, you realize that Mario and Bowser does the same thing in every game as well. Then you realize that the game isn't sexist. It's just have lazy writing. If you going to make a serious claim like sexism, it better hold up when it gets put into the proper context. Context matters. It's not something that people should shrug off in an effort to prove a point.