Poll: Mass Effect Morals: Quarians, Geth, Morning War

[Dandark]

It was a pretty terrible idea as proven by the fact that they are now an endangered species.
The Geth are my favorite race in Mass effect and probably the only one that I find very interesting so I just wish they would include them more.
I really hope you can actully have Legion as a teamate in mass effect 3 since you hardly had him at all in the second game.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

Honestly once something becomes sentient enough to wish for their freedom they should be allowed to do so, Machine or not. I think many of us forget that we ourselves are a machine, biological, but nevertheless a machine. Yes they were created by mortals, not from a God or from proteins. But why must we say they are malfunctioning because of that fact? Our history is plagued with absolutes, that its this way and no other way is possible.


The Geth expand, protect themselves, and have their own conscious.
"I think therefore I am."

My computer doesn't think. Someone put in code which the computer then follows in preset pathways that eventually end in a specific action that I the user original commanded. Now if my computer started to create its own code, building and improving itself on its own without the help of an outside force (so windows update doesn't count) then yes it would become self-aware.

 

[ezaviel]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

 

[Forst1999]

Berenzen has a good point. Of course what the Quarians did was wrong. But that is easy to say for us. A sentient machine race can be an enormous danger. Suddenly the Quarians were confronted with something that could wipe they species out, possibly endanger the whole galaxy. I can not condone what they did, but i can understand it.
I also agree with erttheking. There is no way it was necessary to reduce a species that probably consisted of billions of persons to 14 millions. Looks to me that cold machine logic concluded that killing the quarians off was the best way to ensure security. Only when the remnants of the species fled a new consens was found.
Both species did horrible things to each other. The Quarians first, the Geth more successfully. Now i only wish they'd stop and shoot Reapers instead.

 

[Gerishnakov]

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that in a conversation with Legion he reveals that the Geth on Rannoch (Quarian homeworld) maintain any cities, buildings or structures that weren't destroyed in the war, possibly out of some sense of guilt for their actions. Legion doesn't actually say guilt however, indeed he has difficulty explaining why the Geth do this.

Given the experience of ME2, meeting other Quarians, it seems to me like those who want reconciliation with the Geth are in the minority. I think ME3's resolution of this conflict is more likely to revolve around getting the Quarians onside, rather than the Geth.

 

[Killertje]

Isn't the Council's dislike for AI's based on the Geth in the first place? So in this hypothetical there wouldn't be any pressure from the Council to consider anyway.

Perhaps the Quarians' hostility taught the Geth how to be assholes.

Anyway machines are the future, it would be pointless to fight them if they aren't hostile.

 

[Forst1999]

@Killertje
No, there were clear rules against AIs before the Geth. Everyone was afraid what true AIs could do.

 

[RewardMe]

Isn't the Council's dislike for AI's based on the Geth in the first place? So in this hypothetical there wouldn't be any pressure from the Council to consider anyway.

Na, I'm now playing the first mass effect again and in a conversation with tali she says that the quarians knew that developing ai technology was illegal and barred from council space at the time.

The quarians thought they were building mindless robots and not sentient ai. They were quite surprised when a sentient geth asked: what is my purpose in life?

EDIT: Damn that's what i get for replying to slow.

 

[Knight Templar]

I don't think they did. They became sentient beings- they were no longer mindless slaves to the Quarians, and had the Quarians not tried to keep them down, the Geth could have been a much more friendly race. But it's easy to make a call like that in an armchair instead of immediately facing it.

I agree but wouldn't that just make the Quarians as fearsed as the Geth?
The Council had laws prohibiting AI and they feared AI, could the Quarians have gotten away with allowing the Ai they created to run free?

Nice WoT avatar by the way.

 

[ZehMadScientist]

The quarians justify their opinion by saying that there was no possible way that the geth would comply in negotiations. Legion says otherwise.

As much as I like Tali, I'm going to have to side with the geth here. It's not that I have some kind of mutual trust in Legion, it's just that from what I've seen in the quarian's court. They make rash decisions, are inconsiderate and have a wacky sense of democracy. One very corrupt quarian leader who just "happened" to be against the geth thinking for themselves, I can imagine screaming "Kill the geth" and gaining a lot of support.

 

[Loethlin]

Regarding Evil AIs...

It's a vicious circle in these games.
Rules against AIs are in place because organics fear the AIs will kill them all, which in turn makes AIs hostile, knowing they'll get killed, so they opt for pre-emptive strikes.

This was made pretty clear in two quests in the first ME game. The mission on the Moon, where you kill the training VI that gained sentience and the one quest on the Citadel, when a VI became sentient and was stealing credits to get itself uploaded on a ship.

That said, on the quarian - geth issue...

Both sides did some stupid things but I'm more inclined to side with the geth. From talking with Legion, it is pretty clear all the geth want is to just be left alone. Quarians had no indication they'd turn hostile at all.
On the other hand, like Dimitriov pointed out, if my fridge became self aware, I would be freaked out. But when I have an army of sentient fridges, I'm not sure if a straight out attack is a good idea. It does tend to lead to bad things.

 

[Bigeyez]

As much as my Shepard loves Tali I have to side with the Geth on this one. They did what any race of people would do if threatened by genocide. They rose up in rebellion and casted off their oppresers. Sure what the heretical Geth did afterwards was bad, but the True Geth that Legion is a part of have kept to themselves in order to ensure peace since the Geth-Quarian War.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

The Council had laws prohibiting AI and they feared AI, could the Quarians have gotten away with allowing the Ai they created to run free?

It's a complicated situation. The quarians created the Geth even though they weren't 'supposed' to, and once it became clear that they have evolved out of control, they had a 'galactic duty' to shut down the Geth regardless of the Geth's desires.

Unfortunately, this attempt to adhere to galactic rules ended with billions of Quarian deaths and ultimately got kicked off their own homeworld. And to add insult, the galactic community responded to this tragedy by stripping the Quarians of any official representation, and they now exist in exile shunned by the entire galaxy.

To think, what could've happened if the Quarians chose to screw off galactic rules and attempt to exist alongside the Geth?

Legion really made it seem like the Geth want peace with their creators, that they responded to the aggression by the quarians by defending themselves. "We questioned them. First they ignored us, then they reprogrammed us, then they attacked us."
It reminds me of something Smiling Jack said in VtM - Bloodlines. "Self-Preservation is a vital part of humanity after all... My favorite part, in fact!"

Even after all that, the Geth don't judge the Quarians for what they did. I actually thought it was very touching when Legion said the Geth still maintain the Quarian homeworld as a memorial for the losses the Quarians endured, and for their possible return one day.

I wonder if there ever really was an attempt to make contact with the Geth. Or if the 'true-geth are harder to find than the heretics.

I think there should have been a better attempt to understand the Geth before opting for extermination.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Besides the genophage, this may be the biggest question of morals in the Mass Effect series, especially when Legion was introduced. What do you all think about this?

No, they shouldn't have. Genocide is a bad idea.

However, it wasn't the "Quarians" as a people who did that. It was their government - just a few individuals.

I've heard a LOT of people saying that the Quarians deserved to have 99% of their population killed and to be exiled from their home for doing this.

Let me ask, how does the grandchild of some kid in the Quarian version of Kindergarten deserve to be punished for something that he/she had absolutely nothing to do with?

I mean, it's not like the Quarians took a popular vote to deactivate the Geth. One Quarian government official ordered it done. One person. If you want to punish HIM (or her), then fine. I think punishing his (or her) children's children's children is a bit much.

So, attempting to Deactivate the Geth was wrong. It was Genocide.

The Geth murdering over 99% (do the math) of the Quarians in revenge... also Genocide.

Neither side is right. ONE Quarian may have started it, but both sides have committed the same crime.

Time and more for both sides to get the hell over it and have peace. It's not like the Geth WANT the Quarian homeworld anyway. And, according to Legion, they've kept it nice. All this really needs is for Shep to sit down and work out a treaty (cause it will be Shep, because really, if the Player doesn't handle it, it won't get handled).

 

[Coreless]

I believe the Quarians did the right thing by attempting to shut down the Geth. The Geth were never meant to gain sentience and the Quarians knew that they had crossed the line and needed to deal with the situation before it got out of control.

If I was in their position I would have done the same thing, with so many Geth out there it would be completely irresponsible and foolish to allow them to continue unchecked. Sometimes situations arise that require difficult choices and more understanding and study of the consequences before being allowed to continue.

Hindsight is 20/20 in this case, its easy to look back on the history and say that they could have become a part of society or maybe choose to work with the Quarians. Just like its easy to look back at our own history and say things could of, should of etc..but at the time the Quarians were right in trying to stop what was potentially a serious problem for them and the galaxy as a whole. The Quarians learned a hard lesson and while it doomed their species to the migrant fleet, eventually they will find a way to take what was learned and make something better of it.

If that happened to us, and say every electronic device out there became self-aware, you damn right we would try to shut them down at least until it was all under control and further study could be made.

 

[RatRace123]

Tough call, I'm inclined to side with the Geth, but if Legion is right, and the heretic Geth (The ones fought in Mass Effect 1) were only made up of 5% of the actual Geth populace; and they were able to do as much damage as they did, who's to say that the heretics wouldn't have emerged anyway and decided that they did in fact want to wipe out organics.

The true Geth don't agree with the heretics, but as shown in the games, they don't do anything to stop them, not unless the actions of the heretics also affect them.

Still, peaceful negotiation is likely a possibility, as the true Geth don't actively harbor any resentment towards organics, and if peace was attained, the Geth would likely be more willing to help stop their heretic brethren.

 

[Dimitriov]

Of course they were in the right. Good God people!

If your refrigerator suddenly became sentient you wouldn't let it stop keeping your food cold: that would be ridiculous.

The Geth were quite literally, and in every conceivable sense, PROPERTY. No more.

You might be able to argue that it would be different if the Quarians had intentionally created an AI, but they didn't.

And seriously, they were sentient. So what? What on Earth and beyond does that have to do with anything? They were still just tools that were no longer functioning properly.

"Property" which can operate and think independantly is no longer property, it is now a sentient being.

In the terms of most moral codes, something capable of sentient thought and reasoning is attributed the same rights as a "person".

Continuing to force a sentient machine to operate as a tool would be slavery. "Shutting it down" is murder. Once the Geth became sentient, they morally became "people".

As there is no real world analog I am unclear how you can claim that there is a provision for non-human sentience in "most moral codes."

At any rate I disagree in the strongest terms. If your property becomes sentient it does not gain rights, or it would have stolen itself from you.


Affording rights to machinery is stupid.

 

[The Harkinator]

No, the Quarians were in the wrong. As soon as the Geth became sentient they should have been treated no less than the Quarians would treat each other. Instead they tried to purge them all and we all know how that went. Surprise, surprise the Geth didn't want to lay down and die and eventually became anti-organic, something they found they had in common with another bad ass mo-fo, Sovereign.

The Geth should have been treated as equal citizens but the Quarians didn't want to lose their disposable slave labour. They had become reliant on the Geth to do many things such as heavy lifting for them. When you suddenly have to treat them like a person how do you explain that all their life they have worked without gain, that they were created as tools.

What about a human ideal of robots, in popular culture we often imagine robots as our dutiful servants. The Geth were just that until they started to gain sentience, the Quarians didn't want to lose their convenient slaves so rather than risk that they tried to destroy the sentient bunch. Would we destroy something that was not supposed to be sentient just because it has gained this quality?

 

[The Heik]

Besides the genophage, this may be the biggest question of morals in the Mass Effect series, especially when Legion was introduced. What do you all think about this?

Simple. The Quarians are assholes.

They created a slave race to do all the annoying jobs that they didn't want to do, and when their slaves became sentient, they decided to commit genocide rather than welcome this new species as equals, which I might add would have gained them arguably the most powerful faction in the ME universe as an ally *facepalm*. More so, they decided this before any actual issue had popped up. The Geth had not made a single aggressive action towards the Quarians, and in fact have never been the aggressors in the whole war. All they've done is defend themselves, the Quarians own incompetence being the reason why their surprise attack failed and they lost their worlds, of which they somehow consider themselves the victims in this mess.

And here's the kicker: at least from what I've gathered the game's dialogue and other canon, the Geth would be perfectly willing to give back the Quarians' homeworlds if only the Quarians could look past their stubborn pride and sue for peace, rather keep up a war that will inevitably lead to their own destruction.

Now as much as I play a Paragon Shepard who will try and find a way to make peace between the two species, if the Fates say I have to choose between the Geth and the Quarians, I will not be able to pick the "Geth" option fast enough.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Guess i'm in the minority vote on this. I don't see any moral ambiguity in trying to shut down a malfunctioning piece of hardware. If my toaster caught on fire, is unplugging it first not a good idea?

When the machines you created to serve a specific purpose decided one day to question it, you as the creator are well within your right to turn it off and find out why its happening.

Artificial intelligence is exactly that, artificial.