Poll: ME3 EC didn't fix anything

[Murmillos]

Snip.

If the full fleet couldn't take out the Reaper fleet, half the fleet isn't going to be able to take out half the Reaper fleet.

I think I said the reapers would be mostly disabled. You may still fight, but how well of a fight will you put up with both of your legs and one arm rendered non fuctional?

Anyways, more to the point, doesn't the Catalyst make it pretty clear that he is, in a way, Harbinger?

I didn't get that feeling at all; unless you follow the IndocTheory - which was before EC.

Would you honestly have rather have had a conversation with Harbinger, a being who has had nothing but utter contempt for you and never ceased to remind you how hopeless your struggle is, but now he's suddenly explaining just how many ways you can utterly fuck over the Reapers? I think that would cause an even bigger leap in logic than Space Timmy's exisstence. Were it not for him - the collective will guiding the Reapers - then Harbinger would be in charge. And if that were the case, Shepard would have never even made it to Crucible firing station. Harbinger would have commanded the Reapers to destroy the Crucible immediately when it docked on the Citadel, knowing full well it was the bane of the Reapers, or at least not being so stupid as to wait and see if it worked.

My point is that if not Space Timmy, SOMETHING else had to be guiding the Reapers. Something had to be keeping the Reapers from attacking the Crucible once it was docked. The reason it does this is, as Space Timmy says: the Crucible offers new solutions for the Catalyst to implement.

um... every villain who has the hero supposed tied up, spills the beans... sure it would be cliché, but years of movives/books/comics/other video games still keep that premise strongly rooted. And besides, aren't the Reapers arrogant anyways? Enough to believe that no mere mortal and their gadgetry would be able to stop them completely?

Or just put a plausible space magic bubble shield around it that protects it from Reaper attack once it connected to the Citadel (as the fleet did its best protecting it from Mass Relay to the Citadel)

Either way, what I'm getting out of this is the whole Starchild & Magic Crucible was just funkyjunk ass-pulling writing at its worst. Nearly any other ending would have been better in every other aspect in terms of story writing / telling.

 

[Acton Hank]

If they had not been complete and utter dicks to the fans by calling the people disatisfied with the original ending, and I quote "Whiny, homophobic entitled brats", then Yes i would have been satisfied with the EC.

As it stands, I cant wait for Bioware to burn down and join the likes of Bullfrog and Westwood in the graveyard of companies EA has raped to death.

Hey now, Westwood was a great little company. Respect for the dead

They were a great little company, after what EA did to them, death was the best possible outcome.

When did they say that?

When did who say what?

I dont understand your question here.


oh I see, you are inquiring about the quote.

Go follow the original post and subsequent replies for the anwsers

When did Bioware literally call people who were unhappy with the ending: "Whiny, homophobic, entitled brats"?

Sorry for not being clear, my mistake.

no worries, I encourage you to go follow the original posts I made, I even put links up and everything.

I read the links it was IGN, Koataku and other sites that called the fans that, not Bioware.

 

[boag]

If they had not been complete and utter dicks to the fans by calling the people disatisfied with the original ending, and I quote "Whiny, homophobic entitled brats", then Yes i would have been satisfied with the EC.

As it stands, I cant wait for Bioware to burn down and join the likes of Bullfrog and Westwood in the graveyard of companies EA has raped to death.

Hey now, Westwood was a great little company. Respect for the dead

They were a great little company, after what EA did to them, death was the best possible outcome.

When did they say that?

When did who say what?

I dont understand your question here.


oh I see, you are inquiring about the quote.

Go follow the original post and subsequent replies for the anwsers

When did Bioware literally call people who were unhappy with the ending: "Whiny, homophobic, entitled brats"?

Sorry for not being clear, my mistake.

no worries, I encourage you to go follow the original posts I made, I even put links up and everything.

I read the links it was IGN, Koataku and other sites that called the fans that, not Bioware.

go read both posts, theres more to it than just IGN Kotaku .

 

[Censorme]

Which one is "best" really depends on your point of view. Personally I think Synthesis is the most revolting one, because aside from the sheer idiocy of the concept (seriously, how would that even begin to work?!?) and the lazyness of Bioware's execution (really? you merge organics with synthetics, and the only difference is the organics get glowing green eyes and veins?) you're taking all the diverse species in the galaxy, even ones that weren't involved in the war, and making them all the same - all on the say-so of one human. The concept is monstrous.

That said, that's just the way I see it. A lot of people see it differently again and will tell you that Destroy is the best ending, because that's the one where Shepard (maybe) lives. Or that Refusal (now that it's an option) is the best ending because you don't have to sell out to the Star Child.

The Extended Cut taught me a lot. The Reapers were all one civilization's mistake. They are unsympathetic, overwhelming, and are really bad at finding the plans that create their undoing.

To be honest, "Refusal" was the ending I first chose. I loved Shepard's speech, and was hoping this meant I could stop the reapers without losing anything. Instead, you're given the death sentence of "SO BE IT". Apparently the army you raised STILL isn't good enough. Shepard is left looking like a dope, everyone dies, and you learn the next cycle was able to wipe out the reapers since they were given the earliest warning possible. Good for them.

I interpret "SO BE IT", to be a message from Bioware. A great big "Fuck YOU for telling us our endings sucked. You want to reject them? Howabout this then? EVERYONE dies. There you go. That's what you get for trying to argue our flawed absolutes".

"Destroy" is selfish and empty. All synthetic races are destroyed, and the Mass Relays probably won't be rebuilt. There is still the vague promise that synthetics will only take over again, and although Shepard is alive, they didn't go any further then that "GASP" seen in the vanilla endings.

Your problem with "Synthesis" is why I prefer "Control". I only say "Synthesis" is the "best ending" because it opens up with war assets and war assets mean you care about everyone. It may be Communist, and it may ruin individuality, but it is ultimately the (although forced) best peace.

Call it "selling out to the Star Child", but I'm only doing what I can. Bioware wants you to die, and to have this done and over with.

How do you feel about the "defending artistic integrity" argument? There is going to be that "Rebel Reaper" coming in the future. What if having him in your fleet can change the ending again?

 

[RJ 17]

I didn't get that feeling at all; unless you follow the IndocTheory - which was before EC.

Well, there IS the fact that if you pick the "Fuck your choices!" ending, the Catalyst speaks in Harbinger's voice when he says "So be it."

As for the "Bad guy's spilling the beans", that's completely different from the conversation that takes place. Space Timmy isn't telling Shepard what the Reaper's plans are, arrogantly under the impression that Shepard and the rest of the galaxy are helpless, the Catalyst is literally telling Shepard how to defeat the Reapers. No insight has to be gleened, no flaw in the Reaper plan. It's "Do this, this, or this and you beat the Reapers."

As such, that would be like Harbinger saying "You're utterly insignificant. An ant trying to hold back a storm. Your entire race is doomed. Surreneder is your only option. Only death awaits you. We are your salvation through destruction. Alright, now that you've made it to this room I'm going to tell you how you can kick all of our asses."

It makes less sense than Space Timmy. Granted, I don't particularly like Space Timmy either, but it's like I just said: such an entity is needed for the story. A lot of people say they completely pulled Space Timmy out of their ass (just as you did), but that's not true. If you were paying attention when you find the Prothean VI on Thessia, he specifically mentions that while the Reapers maintain the nearly perfect repetition of events in every cycle, they are not the cause of the cycle itself. Something else is guiding them, some unknown entity whose existence is inferred rather than observable.

So again, if it wasn't Space Timmy, there would still have to be a "Collective Will of the Reapers" (i.e. the unknown entity that controls them) character for the story to work.

And your argument that the Reapers are so arrogant as to not even care about the Crucible is flawed. The entire reason they moved the Citadel to Earth in the first place is because TIM warned them about the Crucible and they wanted to protect it where the vast bulk of their fleet was stationed.

 

[electric method]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; The reason why the Reapers were such a powerful threat in ME1 and ME2 is specifically because they are NOT explained. They are an enigma. Explaining them, their creation and logic defangs any threat they have. It could have been done in a way that would make the starbrat a very tragic figure that added weight to the geth/quarian-synth/organic themes in the series. The way it is handled, however, just makes it ridiculous and laughable.

No amount of exposition can change that the endings to the ME franchise don't fit with what's already been established in the plot. Nor can the EC fix what is essentially broken and inherently flawed. Sure, yes, it adds some emotional closure but, that can never replace or stand in for the proper endings to the series.

We are still left with either accepting the starbrats logic (now with option 4). Player agency, the right to self-determine and other themes in the game are thrown away to give the players the "artsy and philosophical" endings that BW thought were the awesomez. It's not so much that the endings can't work, it's that they don't work in the context of the plot and lore that has already been established.

Further, the ending options presented us the player (depending on how one played shep) are generally ones Shepard would never have chosen in the first place. This becomes even more obvious when looking at control and synthesis because the series has the players fighting against these outcomes for the entire game franchise.

 

[Murmillos]

And your argument that the Reapers are so arrogant as to not even care about the Crucible is flawed. The entire reason they moved the Citadel to Earth in the first place is because TIM warned them about the Crucible and they wanted to protect it where the vast bulk of their fleet was stationed.

and yet it makes to the citadel without any issues at all (that are presented to us).

and then while Shepard is talking to space space timmy, there doesn't appear to be any urgency by the Reapers to dislodge it or attack it.

Everything in SOL is just a unraveling ball of mess.

As for the "Bad guy's spilling the beans", that's completely different from the conversation that takes place. Space Timmy isn't telling Shepard what the Reaper's plans are, arrogantly under the impression that Shepard and the rest of the galaxy are helpless, the Catalyst is literally telling Shepard how to defeat the Reapers. No insight has to be gleened, no flaw in the Reaper plan. It's "Do this, this, or this and you beat the Reapers."

As such, that would be like Harbinger saying "You're utterly insignificant. An ant trying to hold back a storm. Your entire race is doomed. Surreneder is your only option. Only death awaits you. We are your salvation through destruction. Alright, now that you've made it to this room I'm going to tell you how you can kick all of our asses."

In a way, why not? Timmy does. The Crucible changes Timmy; the same Crucible could change Harbinger, who are nearly one of the same. Harbinger is still defiant, but unable to act against the Crucible. He dares you (the player/Shepard) to pick an option at that point, "can you control us?" "nullify the technology you hold dear?" or "Merge the might of flesh and machine?" or turn off the Crucible and go head to head with the Reapers, knowing that there is a 99.9% chance you'll lose to them and the Cycle continues.

 

[RJ 17]

And your argument that the Reapers are so arrogant as to not even care about the Crucible is flawed. The entire reason they moved the Citadel to Earth in the first place is because TIM warned them about the Crucible and they wanted to protect it where the vast bulk of their fleet was stationed.

and yet it makes to the citadel without any issues at all (that are presented to us).

and then while Shepard is talking to space space timmy, there doesn't appear to be any urgency by the Reapers to dislodge it or attack it.

Everything in SOL is just a unraveling ball of mess.

As for the "Bad guy's spilling the beans", that's completely different from the conversation that takes place. Space Timmy isn't telling Shepard what the Reaper's plans are, arrogantly under the impression that Shepard and the rest of the galaxy are helpless, the Catalyst is literally telling Shepard how to defeat the Reapers. No insight has to be gleened, no flaw in the Reaper plan. It's "Do this, this, or this and you beat the Reapers."

As such, that would be like Harbinger saying "You're utterly insignificant. An ant trying to hold back a storm. Your entire race is doomed. Surreneder is your only option. Only death awaits you. We are your salvation through destruction. Alright, now that you've made it to this room I'm going to tell you how you can kick all of our asses."

In a way, why not? Timmy does. The Crucible changes Timmy; the same Crucible could change Harbinger, who are nearly one of the same. Harbinger is still defiant, but unable to act against the Crucible. He dares you (the player/Shepard) to pick an option at that point, "can you control us?" "nullify the technology you hold dear?" or "Merge the might of flesh and machine?" or turn off the Crucible and go head to head with the Reapers, knowing that there is a 99.9% chance you'll lose to them and the Cycle continues.

Indeed, the Crucible changes Timmy, and its for that reason that the Reapers are in no hurry to dislodge it. If every Reaper was independant but saw Harbinger as their leader, you can bet your ass they'd be trying to dislodge it. They may be arrogant, but they're also cunning, precise, and absolutely ruthless. Anything that could potentially be seen as a threat is either converted to their side or destroyed. It's why they attack Sanctuary after it touches the power of Indoctrination. It's why they offer Geth the power to defeat the Quarians in exchange for their obedience. It's why that sneaky bastard Destroyerer is already camped out at the Shroud, trying to poison the atmosphere.

If they consider something a threat, they destroy it. There's a reason the Crucible was brought in last: so the Reapers would be too busy fighting off the rest of the united galactic fleet to pay attention to it. Once it's plugged in and their collective will is changed, Timmy keeps them from attacking since there are new solutions.

But Harbinger is a Reaper, not the governing will of the Reapers. As I said, on Thessia it's specifically mentioned that the Reapers are just the ones that maintain and progress the Cycle, but they are not the ones who created and implemented it. They're just tools.

You still seem to be dodging the fact that there HAS to be a Space Timmy in the story (or at least some variation of it). Would you have HONESTLY been happier if Harbinger - your nemesis throughout ME 2 and the Reaper officially recognized as the biggest and baddest - had suddenly gone from telling you how laughable your feeble attempts to stop the inevitable are to suddenly breaking down and explaining the various ways for which you can win, ultimately?

"That's right Shepard. It's hopeless. There's nothing you can do. Submit. Oh, you brought in a new toy? Alright. Well I DARE you to do it! You don't have the BALLS to destroy us! You don't have the BALLS to take control over us!" "Wait, you mean TIM was right?" "Yes, but he couldn't control us. You can....if you have the BALLS to go through with it! Or you could bring about a utopian society by advancing all life to the final stage of evolution and ensure that peace and prosperity reign supreme forever and always! But we all know you don't have the BALLS to do that either!"

Not really a challenging dare if everything what you're being dared to do utterly defeats your enemy at the cost of a single life. Given the fact that a major theme from the beginning of ME 3 is "Fight to the death or you're already dead", I don't think Shepard would hesitate at throwing away his/her life if dared to do so and knowing it'll end the war. And sure enough, as the endings show, Shepard isn't afraid to throw away his/her life to end the war.

You might be saying that you'd have prefered a Harbinger hologram over Space Timmy, but I've got a feeling that if that really were the case, there'd be even more rage at the sudden and very drastic change in Harby's "personality" going from omnipotent space-devil-ship who arrogantly taunts you to no end is never ceases to remind you about how worthless you are and how indestructible he and the rest of the Reapers are to suddenly saying "If you do this, you'll utterly destroy us. If you do this, we'll be forced to obey your will for the rest of eternity. Or you can do this and everyone can coexist in harmony for the rest of eternity. Every civilization that has been preserved in Reaper form will now be "free" to share its knowledge and culture with the current societies of the galaxy, and it's all very lovey dovey forever and always." P that's actually why the Blue ending is my favorite...I hate utopias).

So once again I state that there HAS to be a character that fills the role of Space Timmy. You can complain about the execution of that role, perhaps wishing it was something other than a hologram of Spontaneous Combustion Lad from your dreams, but the fact remains that the role Space Timmy fills is necessary and cannot be filled by a Reaper.

 

[Murmillos]

...

I was going to type something far more engaging, but fuck it, its time for Burgers, Beers and Fireworks.

ME3 ending is a philosophical pile of shit and putting flowers on it isn't going to make it smell or look any better.

 

[RJ 17]

...

I was going to type something far more engaging, but fuck it, its time for Burgers, Beers and Fireworks.

ME3 ending is a philosophical pile of shit and putting flowers on it isn't going to make it smell or look any better.

Which brings me back to my saying "No, I don't expect to change your mind on this subject." I've offered the best answers I can to your problems with Space Timmy, but people's opinions are notoriously difficult to change.

But I do agree, time for booze and Michael Bay explosions! Be safe my fellow Escapist.

 

[ralfy]

Completely agree with Adam Jensen. The three options go against Shepard's beliefs, and the fourth leads to defeat no matter the EMS. The only way that they could have solved these problems is to rewrite the ending.

 

[42]

I like how people think Bioware doing the Extended Cut is basically burning their artistic integrity, when they've been doing it for years in the film business. Example A, One of Nerd cultures most beloved, Ridley Scott has always released an extended cut to his movies. So why is this any different? And the EC made it work, and I like the ending. From the perspective of someone who's played through them with only a minor attention to all the side shit, the ending actually fitted quite well into the trilogy for me. but thats a PERSONAL SUBJECTIVE opinion.