Poll: Meat causes cancer :O | What will you do? | Human Evolution vs. Contemporary Science?
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From what I read it's an increase that is so small as to be nearly meaningless. Besides that, meat is good. I love a good steak. You can have my steak when you pry it from my jaws.
Too much water can kill you. Water! The literal cornerstone of life as we know it, can kill you if you drink too much of it.Glongpre said:
Apparently anything can cause cancer these days, so I really can't say I give a shit whatsoever...
OP is misrepresenting the study. It found that processed meats are definitely carcinogenic (on the same level as cigarettes and asbestos exposure), and that red meats are probably carcinogenic.
Still, it only highlights how horrible the poor have it. Processed meats are much cheaper and easier to get for many, and if the study is true, they have essentially been eating cigarettes covered in asbestos for years.
Still, it only highlights how horrible the poor have it. Processed meats are much cheaper and easier to get for many, and if the study is true, they have essentially been eating cigarettes covered in asbestos for years.
A good cook can do wonders with chicken and fish.
also potatoes are good. and so is bourbon.
I will replace my red meat intake with bourbon.
also potatoes are good. and so is bourbon.
I will replace my red meat intake with bourbon.
If you gave me a choice right now between cancer and never eating meat again...yeah I'll take the cancer.
Anyway, as many have pointed out, the sheer breadth of the list of things that cause or probably cause cancer is bonkers, and changes constantly. A lot of this just sounds like oddball chemicals, but if you do research you'll see that it's essentially impossible to avoid everything they've declared a carcinogen (especially considering that the freakin' sun is considered to definitely be a carcinogen):
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/generalinformationaboutcarcinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens
Anyway, as many have pointed out, the sheer breadth of the list of things that cause or probably cause cancer is bonkers, and changes constantly. A lot of this just sounds like oddball chemicals, but if you do research you'll see that it's essentially impossible to avoid everything they've declared a carcinogen (especially considering that the freakin' sun is considered to definitely be a carcinogen):
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/generalinformationaboutcarcinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens
"Processed meat causes cancer" duh, all preservatives are basically mutagenic. "All meat causes cancer" . . . pure, unbased conjecture and almost certainly false, but thanks for playing. All there evidence is based on processed meat, and without any basis they extend it to all meat, most likely because the study was funded by an anti-meat group.
BreakfastMan is misrepresenting the studies. They found that certain processed meats are definitely carcinogenic, but not nearly as carcinogenic as cigarettes or asbestos.BreakfastMan said:
Yeah, there's pretty much nothing you can do to make oneself cancer-proof. I don't think I'm gonna sweat this one.
Besides, If God didn't want us to eat animals, why'd He make them out of meat?!
Besides, If God didn't want us to eat animals, why'd He make them out of meat?!
Isn't cancer pretty much caused by being alive? I mean Cancer is your cells screwing up during Mitosis and the DNA being messed up and considering how often it happens and how many actual links there are in your DNA I'm surprised it doesn't happen more.
Also depending on what they consider "cancer" be it a single cell that dies off fast or an actual diagnosable infection you could conclude that anything causes cancer.
Also depending on what they consider "cancer" be it a single cell that dies off fast or an actual diagnosable infection you could conclude that anything causes cancer.
Firstly:
https://xkcd.com/882
Secondly: As others have pointed out, literally EVERYTHING has minute carcinogenic properties.
Anyone that has a passing understanding of what cancers actually are and how they occur will find this news pretty much a non-event.
For example, the bigger you are, and the longer you live, the more likely you are to get cancer. Why? You have more cells in your body. As cells reproduce, they exhibit wear and tear on the DNA that they use to replicate. The splitting of the DNA can cause damage to the sequence, yielding mutations.
Now, our DNA has junk data on the end of the strains called telomares which act as a buffer to minimize the likelyhood of damaging the DNA strains. However, there are only so many telomares on a strain of DNA, and with enough replications, they run out and DNA damage and mutations become increasingly likely.
Now, in general terms, this is tied to general symptoms of aging, weakening muscles, hardening of arteries, fewer cells maintaining your bones, etc. However, this can also yield mutations that cause the cells to reproduce wildly - cancer. As such, ANY time a cell is mutated in some way, there's a chance it will begin to replicate without stoppage, which yields cancerous growths.
Another big creator of cancer cells is actually the basic metabolic process of cells operating normally. When they metabolize, they create molecules with a lose electron as part of the standard waste production process. These are called free radicals. As they pass through the body, they can contact with a cell, and peel away an electron, which sometimes causes damage to it's DNA sequence. As noted above this can cause cells to become cancerous as well.
(Amusingly, I was reading a study that antioxidants can actually be bad for you if you're already at risk for cancer, because the free radicals moving in your body will also damage cancer cells attempting to metastasize, killing them off before they can move elsewhere in the body, and antioxidants lower how many free radicals are in your body, but that's a different thing).
In short, merely having cells in your body(which you REALLY don't have a choice in) all but guarantees that EVENTUALLY, assuming you live long enough, you'll have a cellular mutation that results in cancer. Maybe not malignant, but tumor growths and the like at least.
Accounting for that information, then, it wouldn't surprise you that any number of chemicals we utilize in all kinds of things have a chance of increasing the likelihood that they damage cells and cause cancer.
What really matters is how significant the increase in likelihood is, which is why I linked the xkcd comic above. And given that it's a very small amount, I wouldn't worry.
https://xkcd.com/882
Secondly: As others have pointed out, literally EVERYTHING has minute carcinogenic properties.
Anyone that has a passing understanding of what cancers actually are and how they occur will find this news pretty much a non-event.
For example, the bigger you are, and the longer you live, the more likely you are to get cancer. Why? You have more cells in your body. As cells reproduce, they exhibit wear and tear on the DNA that they use to replicate. The splitting of the DNA can cause damage to the sequence, yielding mutations.
Now, our DNA has junk data on the end of the strains called telomares which act as a buffer to minimize the likelyhood of damaging the DNA strains. However, there are only so many telomares on a strain of DNA, and with enough replications, they run out and DNA damage and mutations become increasingly likely.
Now, in general terms, this is tied to general symptoms of aging, weakening muscles, hardening of arteries, fewer cells maintaining your bones, etc. However, this can also yield mutations that cause the cells to reproduce wildly - cancer. As such, ANY time a cell is mutated in some way, there's a chance it will begin to replicate without stoppage, which yields cancerous growths.
Another big creator of cancer cells is actually the basic metabolic process of cells operating normally. When they metabolize, they create molecules with a lose electron as part of the standard waste production process. These are called free radicals. As they pass through the body, they can contact with a cell, and peel away an electron, which sometimes causes damage to it's DNA sequence. As noted above this can cause cells to become cancerous as well.
(Amusingly, I was reading a study that antioxidants can actually be bad for you if you're already at risk for cancer, because the free radicals moving in your body will also damage cancer cells attempting to metastasize, killing them off before they can move elsewhere in the body, and antioxidants lower how many free radicals are in your body, but that's a different thing).
In short, merely having cells in your body(which you REALLY don't have a choice in) all but guarantees that EVENTUALLY, assuming you live long enough, you'll have a cellular mutation that results in cancer. Maybe not malignant, but tumor growths and the like at least.
Accounting for that information, then, it wouldn't surprise you that any number of chemicals we utilize in all kinds of things have a chance of increasing the likelihood that they damage cells and cause cancer.
What really matters is how significant the increase in likelihood is, which is why I linked the xkcd comic above. And given that it's a very small amount, I wouldn't worry.
Everything in moderation, honestly.
If your idea of a meal is usually lifted wholesale from Epic Meal Time, then yeah. Welcome to Cancer Town. If, on the other hand, you're the type who alternates between red meat, white meat, fish and the occasional veggie-inspired dish, you're probably going to be fine. We're omnivores, so we evolved to digest a bit of everything, to derive our nutrients from several different sources. Going all-in on red meat can't possibly be good for you, the same being applicable to the latest veggie cleanse that has you swear off everything except someone's favorite bit of greenery.
It's pretty simple: just remember that nutrients come in all shapes and sizes. Need protein but feel like cutting back on them T-bones? Scarf a few fistfuls of almonds along with a nice salad. On the other hand, if you're stuck living with a salad freak, it's fine to sneak in cubes of steak or fish every now and then.
Honestly, the best way to get ideas flowing concerning meals is to eat out. I mean SERIOUSLY eat out - like screw Denny's or Arby's, go someplace fancy that costs forty dollars a plate. You'll taste new stuff and discover new combinations - and never be afraid to ask for recipes or pointers from the waiter or chef. A lot of the fancypants stuff can actually be pared down to manageable instructions you can follow with basic grocery store elements.
Of course, that implies that another great way to eat well is to cook. Ordering in costs a fortune, anyways.
If your idea of a meal is usually lifted wholesale from Epic Meal Time, then yeah. Welcome to Cancer Town. If, on the other hand, you're the type who alternates between red meat, white meat, fish and the occasional veggie-inspired dish, you're probably going to be fine. We're omnivores, so we evolved to digest a bit of everything, to derive our nutrients from several different sources. Going all-in on red meat can't possibly be good for you, the same being applicable to the latest veggie cleanse that has you swear off everything except someone's favorite bit of greenery.
It's pretty simple: just remember that nutrients come in all shapes and sizes. Need protein but feel like cutting back on them T-bones? Scarf a few fistfuls of almonds along with a nice salad. On the other hand, if you're stuck living with a salad freak, it's fine to sneak in cubes of steak or fish every now and then.
Honestly, the best way to get ideas flowing concerning meals is to eat out. I mean SERIOUSLY eat out - like screw Denny's or Arby's, go someplace fancy that costs forty dollars a plate. You'll taste new stuff and discover new combinations - and never be afraid to ask for recipes or pointers from the waiter or chef. A lot of the fancypants stuff can actually be pared down to manageable instructions you can follow with basic grocery store elements.
Of course, that implies that another great way to eat well is to cook. Ordering in costs a fortune, anyways.
Just the state of being alive will give you cancer eventually.
If you beat all other diseases, have no organs fail, then in the end you will die from cancer.
Mostly because of flavours.
The dullest meal I know of is a steak.
Hardly ever eat that anymore.
If you beat all other diseases, have no organs fail, then in the end you will die from cancer.
So... If I stop eating meat I can continue with smoking?BreakfastMan said:
I won't go full vegetarian, but I must say that I eat less and less meat.davidmc1158 said:
Mostly because of flavours.
The dullest meal I know of is a steak.
Hardly ever eat that anymore.
There is a key difference in us and carnivores though. Our digestive system is far longer making us suited for both meat an vegetables. This trade-off makes us more vulnerable to the detrimental effects of red meat. The effect isn't due to preservatives, it's because of what naturally occurs in red meat, mainly oxygen if we are to view it in simple terms.Glongpre said:
OT: I already knew this. Red meat is carcinogenic due to its higher content of myoglobin which carries oxygen to a higher degree than white meat. This increases the risk of colorectal cancer by approximately 50% (overall 6% risk). You don't avoid cancer by not eating meat, but you reduce the risk when you limit your consumption of processed and red meat. The news are generally quite bad at conveying this part and we are generally bad at responding to it.
I'm not going to quit eating meat and I wouldn't tell anyone else to do so either, but you should consider eating fish and chicken more than steak, hot dogs and burgers. Those things are delicious though so I will eat it knowing and accepting the risk.
Also don't mix evolution into this. Our consumption of red meat has increased a lot over the last decade and our intestinal system is a testament to our evolution towards a different path than the one we're on now. We remove the fat from our meat, we breed our livestock to have less fat. If you compare a piece of meat served 50 years ago to one served today you'll see a significant difference in how it looks. Evolution has not prepared us for our current way of life nad do not bring that up unless you understand it.
Yes, some scientists tweak P-values making some research useless because it might be random. In this case we know the mechanism, we can test it in cell cultures and we can see a clear correlation based on hundreds of thousands patients.Areloch said:
I apologize in advance for this wall of text, but you have some misunderstandings that I would like to comment on. I understand if this is a bit too heavy reading.
As for the part about telomers you are making a mistake in interpreting it. Cancerous mutations are related to them, but in the complete other end of the spectrum. Some of our cells have the enzyme telomerase which prevents telomers from shortening. This is critical in our reproductive system and production of stem cells in the bone marrow. In cancer cells telomerase is most often active resulting in maintenance of the telomers which makes them able to divide indefinitely which is why cells with telomerase activity are called immortal.
Cancer is most commonly caused by mutation of certain key genes called pro-oncogenes or oncogenes. p53 is a gene which is important for regulating cell division. A mutation of that will result in a reduced ability to stop cell division in damaged cells, which is the case in some cancers. A mutation may cause increased activity of a mitogen (a gene which initiates cell division) causing cancer. In some cases there are even fused together making an entirely new gene (see the Philadelphia chromosome and BCR-Abl) which also enhances the activity of a cell. The worst kinds of mutations are those that affects the ability to repair mutations.
The sources of mutations are plentiful. Our DNA gets damaged all the time, most of the time it's fixed. The one that it's completely impossible to avoid is that our DNA replication machinery isn't perfect. The error rate is less than 1 in 10000000 which sounds extremely little, but our DNA is composed of more than 3000000000 base pairs meaning that you can end up with 300 mistakes every time a cell divides (with the maximum error rate). Most of these will be more or less harmless, others will be fixed, some cells will be prevented from dividing and some cells will die.
The exact consequence of the shortening telomers is actually disputed. We know there is a correlation between the telomers shortening and aging making us suspect that there is some regulation in rate of cell division and DNA damage due to it, but these are all hypotheses.
I hope I managed to clear up some things.
Didn't expect to live beyond 77 years anyway.
Loads of stuff is carcinogenic (including the very ground we stand on).
And if the "increased chance" of cancer from eating an omnivorous diet (meat and two veg) corresponds to a difference in expected life-expectancy from 77 to 75 years, then so be it.
I'd rather live a comfortable but slightly shorter life than a long and boring one.
Loads of stuff is carcinogenic (including the very ground we stand on).
And if the "increased chance" of cancer from eating an omnivorous diet (meat and two veg) corresponds to a difference in expected life-expectancy from 77 to 75 years, then so be it.
I'd rather live a comfortable but slightly shorter life than a long and boring one.
To live life devoid of anything unhealthy or self-destructive would be a dreadfully boring endeavor, I'll keep my meat, but in moderation of course.
In other news:
Radiation causes cancer. Smoke detectors contain radioactive material. Therefore, smoke detectors cause cancer.
Headline:
Smoke Detectors: The Not-So-Silent Killers
Radiation causes cancer. Smoke detectors contain radioactive material. Therefore, smoke detectors cause cancer.
Headline:
Smoke Detectors: The Not-So-Silent Killers
Funny how 99% of the people ITT are dismissing this research yet about the same proportion of society strongly condemns smoking, and wouldn't want a return to smoking in public places like libraries, cafes and shopping centres. Admit it - you like meat, so you don't want to stop eating it. It's not because 'everything causes cancer'.
If you eat multiple kilograms of meat each week, you'll probably get cancer and a dozen other kinds of diseases. The magic words are "in moderation". If you eat meat in a healthy amount your additional risk of cancer will only be slightly higher. We can't keep away all causes of cancer, but we can lower the risk. So, no reason to stop eating red meat, but you should think about your health when you eat it en masse.
Also, didn't they declare red meat cancerous a long time ago? Sausage from red meat is the new thing now that causes cancer. You can imagine how I, as a German, was shocked by that news. I was shocked so deeply that I instantly had to eat some sausage to get calm.
Also, didn't they declare red meat cancerous a long time ago? Sausage from red meat is the new thing now that causes cancer. You can imagine how I, as a German, was shocked by that news. I was shocked so deeply that I instantly had to eat some sausage to get calm.