Poll: Modding is EXTREMELY important in games. Agreed?

[Baron von Blitztank]

Gotta love those poll options. Keep it classy!

Anyways, I'd hardly consider mods to be a make-or-breaking point for a game. Sure they can add to ones experience with a game but I like to keep the game as vanilla as possible as that is the experience that the developers wanted you to see and pay for and I prefer to judge games based on playing them as they were intended.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

In my opinion modding is a thing that should not exist. Its insulting to the developers of the game and frankly completely bonkers as a concept. Imagine if we did this with movies or books.

Imagine if someone watched avatar, didn't like the monster design and went and airbrushed over all of it with new designs completely, we would call him crazy.

Also you need to change the poll because atm the No option sounds sarcastic and insulting to the people who would choose it, implying that the only correct choice is yes which isnt very good for discussion.

And then there's this guy.

You're wrong for several reasons.

First and foremost is companies like Bethesda that outright TELL people to mod. You can't turn around and tell me modders are insulting them.

Second, your avatar example is flawed because FanEdits are EVERYWHERE. There's literally dozens of fanedited version of The Phantom Menace and others in an attempt to improve them. Many people watch and enjoy these edits and VERY few call them crazy.

This happens to books as well. If you're like me and you though the last few books of Animorphs were lazy, made no sense and were generally a bad time, you went looking for a better version. I found several fanedits of the last 2 books and they were far superior. In fact, I consider one such edit to be canon.

Input from fans is an incredibly important thing for any medium.

Though I do agree on the poll. Needs a better "No" option and needs some options in between for people like me who enjoy mods, but don't feel they are essential.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Eh, as someone who has played on console pretty much the entire of my gaming life, no, I don't find them to be important at all.

Neat stuff for those who have them I suppose, but not important.

 

[Darkasassin96]

In my opinion modding is a thing that should not exist. Its insulting to the developers of the game and frankly completely bonkers as a concept. Imagine if we did this with movies or books.

Imagine if someone watched avatar, didn't like the monster design and went and airbrushed over all of it with new designs completely, we would call him crazy.

Also you need to change the poll because atm the No option sounds sarcastic and insulting to the people who would choose it, implying that the only correct choice is yes which isnt very good for discussion.

Hrm, almost sounds like you're applying 'artistic integrity' to your reply here. I've heard enough of video games is art, and artistic integrity from the bioware forums.

And you're wrong. Modding is great, a lot of times it fixes bugs that developers refuse to fix, and it can extend the lifetime of a game. Look at neverwinter nights 1 by bioware, it's still being played to this day, still loads of persistant worlds to connect to, and modders have made that game better than the original.

Not saying its amust, but I think modding is important, for certain genres and games.

I see no reason not to apply it, Im about to apply it right now in my response.

If people are still playing neverwinter nights because of modding then why are you crediting Bioware. Bioware made the game and the game was good, when people start adding additions to i then it stops being what Bioware intended it to be and went on to make it. Again I dont understand how a developer cant feel insulted when someone mods their game. Bug fixes I can get behind, but it seems like this is the only medium where this kind of behaviour is encouraged.

Would you have supported the people who made all of the lightsabers in a new hope look like giant croquet mallots, would you have downloaded that movie and watched it?

 

[Angelowl]

After playing the total war games, I've started to look for mods for all my PC-games. The improvements are absurd at times. Europa Barbarorum, Stainless Steel and Third Age all feels like completely new games. Far more massive than the vanilla version.

If the game has potential but is broken then the fans will fix it, if they are allowed to do so that is. Otherwise the game will just die.

Darkasassin96, that is called fan fiction when it comes to books. Not as big as modding perhaps, but it still exists and is generally a sign of appreciation for the original creator.

 

[omega 616]

No ....

More? Ok.

I mainly play console games but I have a number of PC games, played a couple hundred hours on pc. Never once "modded" a game, bought DLC but never done that whole "download file, place it in the right place" stuff ... not smart enough for that crap.

I always see "You're playing X on PC? You have to download this to make it work properly", to which I said "oh, is that why I have completed it and not downloaded that then?", no examples spring to mind but I know I have read it. I think there needs to be a difference made between "to make it work properly/it's unplayable" and "improves it", for example the dark souls one "I cannot understate how essential this mod is. If you plan to play Dark Souls on PC, you simply must install it. DSFix is called so because it fixes Dark Souls."

"Essential"? Meaning "absolutely necessary", so unless it has this mod it is totally unplayable?

"you simply must install it" must I? What if I don't, will it work? Yeah, probably (I say probably 'cos sometimes shit just don't work)

It fixes it? No 'cos it's not broken, it improves it! You can still play it without this mod, it just improves it.

Not to mention I always see it lorded that it's one of the reasons that PC gaming is obviously better, not contemplating the fact that modding means nothing to me(and probably many others) but that is a whole other can of worms, DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS ... [small] please?[/small]

EDIT: side note, you ask this on a forum with a heavy PC user base? What did you expect the results to be?

Isn't your poll VERY leading? It's "yes, I love mods" , "no, I'm a devs little *****" or "couldn't give a fuck". This reminds me of a t shirt "my opinion is right and everybody who disagrees is a *****" (there is a word there but I'm not sure I can say it)

 

[DarkhoIlow]

Mods are important but only in certain games. It does increases the lifespan of the game tremendously far beyond it's point of release.

The Witcher 2 for example is hard to mod for apart from maybe armors/weapons/models, but I don't think it's possible to make new quests in the editor unlike Skyrim for example. This might change with the Witcher 3 since it's going to be open world.

 

[Sandernista]

From what I hear Kotor 2 is actually a coherent and enjoyable experience now, thank god for community patches fixing the devs broken crap. Bitter? No, why do you ask? I guess I'm just tired of consumers being beta testers, and worse, I'm tired of being sold something that is broken and then its never fixed(say what you want, yes bethesda games have a ton of bugs, but atleast they fix most of them eventually.... looking at you obsidian).

You should read up on what exactly went down with KoTOR 2, it's a general shitfest all around. Obsidian was actually forced not to release a huge patch by the publisher, and the only reason it wasn't included in the game proper was because they were forced to release an unfinished game.

 

[Darkasassin96]

snip

This, its not so much the modding itself I have a problem with its the belief that a game is incomplete without a certain mod. The developers made a product and if you wan to alter that product go ahead but dont make it seem like the mod that adds tits to the skyrim characters is the second coming of Jesus. Again this is really the only medium that sees that sort of thing.

I play PC games a lot but the closest i have come to modding is texture packs in Minecraft. Its more of a protest really people are always telling me how bad skyrim is without mods. Im just baffled how anyone can believe things like that. It was a solid game that I have finished multiple times wihtout so much as a boobies mod but people still tell me i am not getting the true skyrim experience.

 

[neppakyo]

I see no reason not to apply it, Im about to apply it right now in my response.

If people are still playing neverwinter nights because of modding then why are you crediting Bioware. Bioware made the game and the game was good, when people start adding additions to i then it stops being what Bioware intended it to be and went on to make it. Again I dont understand how a developer cant feel insulted when someone mods their game. Bug fixes I can get behind, but it seems like this is the only medium where this kind of behaviour is encouraged.

Would you have supported the people who made all of the lightsabers in a new hope look like giant croquet mallots, would you have downloaded that movie and watched it?

Crediting bioware? Mentioned Bioware cause they made the game Also, bioware gave for free, the Aurora tools to be able to MAKE mods, and change the game, so in answer to that, yes, its the game bioware intended. As for newer BW games, its EA's desicion now to allow modder tools, but BW isn't the same as the old BW. Most of the original people have quit. (last famous two were the founders of BW, one lead dev quit after he saw what was planned for DA2)

The purpose (imho) for mods is to enhance the experience, longevity, and fun of games. Modding wouldn't work for every game, just certain ones and genres.

And I'd bet some people would enjoy that, probably more so in the phantom menance, such a poor movie Anyways, that was a stupid example you used, now if you said "Watch new hope if they fixed onscreen errors in the FX?" I'd say yes. Also I'd say yes to someone who has edited out Jar Jar from the new movies.

Anyways, enough of movie examples, they really don't work well when talking about game mods.

captcha; easy as cake - applies to deconstructing your illogic.

 

[DragonKhan95]

Another interesting thing about modding which I stole from Bioware's David Gaider is that if a game supports modding, it will actually make people more likely to buy DLC as it keeps interest in their game. I'm pretty sure that the MEHEM (Mass Effect Happy Ending Mod) help to keep some people's interest until Citadel DLC.

Sometimes it's the engine more than the publisher that makes modding difficult. Frostbite is very difficult to mod, whereas Creation/Embryo isn't. It could also be expensive to supply a toolset, as some tools may not be inhouse and have to be licensed, which would mean modding would cost serious money.

 

[Festus Moonbear]

In my opinion modding is a thing that should not exist. Its insulting to the developers of the game and frankly completely bonkers as a concept. Imagine if we did this with movies or books.

Imagine if someone watched avatar, didn't like the monster design and went and airbrushed over all of it with new designs completely, we would call him crazy.

Also you need to change the poll because atm the No option sounds sarcastic and insulting to the people who would choose it, implying that the only correct choice is yes which isnt very good for discussion.

Hrm, almost sounds like you're applying 'artistic integrity' to your reply here. I've heard enough of video games is art, and artistic integrity from the bioware forums.

And you're wrong. Modding is great, a lot of times it fixes bugs that developers refuse to fix, and it can extend the lifetime of a game. Look at neverwinter nights 1 by bioware, it's still being played to this day, still loads of persistant worlds to connect to, and modders have made that game better than the original.

Not saying its amust, but I think modding is important, for certain genres and games.

I see no reason not to apply it, Im about to apply it right now in my response.

If people are still playing neverwinter nights because of modding then why are you crediting Bioware. Bioware made the game and the game was good, when people start adding additions to i then it stops being what Bioware intended it to be and went on to make it. Again I dont understand how a developer cant feel insulted when someone mods their game. Bug fixes I can get behind, but it seems like this is the only medium where this kind of behaviour is encouraged.

Would you have supported the people who made all of the lightsabers in a new hope look like giant croquet mallots, would you have downloaded that movie and watched it?

The examples you're giving are not helpful because they are clearly designed to be bad. Lightsabers like croquet mallets doesn't sound good (although if someone wanted it, then so be it), but maybe, say, a Phantom Menace without Jar-jar doesn't sound so bad, and in fact such a thing does exist as a fan edit, as you probably know, and many people hold it superior to the original. [Looks like I got ninja'd on that point.]

But anyway, comparing game mods to literature or movie mods isn't exactly a well-fitting analogy because in games, unlike movies or books, the gamer is already 'modding' the experience in a sense just by playing it. When you play Half Life and murder the first security guard you see to take his gun, that's a mod. When you exploit an AI weakness to make a boss battle easier, that's a mod. You are 'modifying' the creator's vision of how the game is 'supposed' to be played. Now when it comes to open-world games where there are already more ways to play than a creator could envisage, modding is almost a natural extension of the game design: the game is already being 'authored' by the player as they play it, and no two player experiences are going to be alike. So why not mod it, then? That's just adding your own imagination to what the developers gave you, and becoming part of the creative process. That's less insulting to the developers and more of a tribute to them, if you think about it. They made this awesome world with all this potential, and inspired you to join in the creative process with them to make something that even they did not envisage.

Personally I'm not fussed about using mods because I'm mostly a console player and I also like to experience the game as the devs intended it. But if other people mod and get satisfaction from it, then that's cool and I like seeing what they come up with. Gaming still doesn't really have an established auteur theory like cinema does, and when something is produced by many dozens of people in a development house anyway, it's authorship is already a complex question even before the modders get their hands on it. It's all part of the evolution of the form, and to bar that evolution by invoking the standards and norms of another art form (cinema, say) is illogical, unnatural and stifling.

 

[neppakyo]

The examples you're giving are not helpful because they are clearly designed to be bad. Lightsabers like croquet mallets doesn't sound good (although if someone wanted it, then so be it), but maybe, say, a Phantom Menace without Jar-jar doesn't sound so bad, and in fact such a thing does exist as a fan edit, as you probably know, and many people hold it superior to the original.

But anyway, comparing game mods to literature or movie mods isn't exactly a well-fitting analogy because in games, unlike movies or books, the gamer is already 'modding' the experience in a sense just by playing it. When you play Half Life and murder the first security guard you see to take his gun, that's a mod. When you exploit an AI weakness to make a boss battle easier, that's a mod. You are 'modifying' the creator's vision of how the game is 'supposed' to be played. Now when it comes to open-world games where there are already more ways to play than a creator could envisage, modding is almost a natural extension of the game design: the game is already being 'authored' by the player as they play it, and no two player experiences are going to be alike. So why not mod it, then? That's just adding your own imagination to what the developers gave you, and becoming part of the creative process. That's less insulting to the developers and more of a tribute to them, if you think about it. They made this awesome world with all this potential, and inspired you to join in the creative process with them to make something that even they did not envisage.

Personally I'm not fussed about using mods because I'm mostly a console player and I also like to experience the game as the devs intended it. But if other people mod and get satisfaction from it, then that's cool and I like seeing what they come up with. Gaming still doesn't really have an established auteur theory like cinema does, and when something is produced by many dozens of people in a development house anyway, it's authorship is already a complex question even before the modders get their hands on it. It's all part of the evolution of the form, and to bar that evolution by invoking the standards and norms of another art form (cinema, say) is illogical, unnatural and stifling.

So, is this directed at me, darkass, or both?

I do like what you said though, and I pretty much agree. Very well articulated, unlike my posts

 

[klausaidon]

I've never touched modding, and have no interest in them. They all tend to look cheap, and uninteresting to me over the official product, and just seem like wastes of time. I milked the hell out of Skyrim, and got every cent worth out of it, from the base game, without any mods, and somehow I feel if I decided to start modding the hell out of the game, it would have just cheapened the experience.

 

[Fishes]

In my opinion modding is a thing that should not exist. Its insulting to the developers of the game and frankly completely bonkers as a concept. Imagine if we did this with movies or books.

Imagine if someone watched avatar, didn't like the monster design and went and airbrushed over all of it with new designs completely, we would call him crazy.

Also you need to change the poll because atm the No option sounds sarcastic and insulting to the people who would choose it, implying that the only correct choice is yes which isnt very good for discussion.

People actually do that though, it's called fan art, or fan-fiction for the writing.Pretty much everything that's ever been popular at some time or another has fan art and fanfics.

Yes but I think we can pretty much all agree that most fan fiction is terrible, and we dont put fan fiction on a pedestal as something thats required for a book or story to succeed.

I think one of the main reasons modding gets defended is that its mostly a PC exclusive thing. In the immortal words of Yahtzee Croshaw "fanboys will defend swarms of angry wasps if they exclusively nest in xbox casings" I believe that can apply to any platform.

In my opinion modding is a thing that should not exist. Its insulting to the developers of the game and frankly completely bonkers as a concept. Imagine if we did this with movies or books.

Imagine if someone watched avatar, didn't like the monster design and went and airbrushed over all of it with new designs completely, we would call him crazy.

I do not think you understand what you are saying, it's implications, or how the entertainment industry works. You are overlooking a lot of data, or are perhaps unaware of it.

Ever notice how they censor a lot less from old movies then they used to? How do you think such things happened? The people who purchased the rights to air the content in question altered it to suit their wants, and then altered it again when their wants changed.

TV networks are quite literally a third party that modifies the works of other companies to make it more palatable to general audiences, and has been for decade upon decade upon decade, and I have still only gotten to the eighties when the idea that we might pay an extra fee to see them uncensored and uninterrupted started to take off.

It is wise to tread lightly and with surety when insulting folks. Insulting folks while making sweeping generalizations about things you never really sat down and examined tends to make people giggle and roll they eyes at you. It also allows people who are extremely silly, and more then a little odd to do extremely cliche and asinine things like this:

Holy crap I have a new catchphrase. You just got schooled by Fishes!

You see? That exists. Someone thought it up on the spot and it is your fault. The blood is on your hands.

 

[Festus Moonbear]

snip

So, is this directed at me, darkass, or both?

I do like what you said though, and I pretty much agree. Very well articulated, unlike my posts

Erm, at darkass I guess! I just hit the 'quote' button and wrote what I wrote

Captcha: 'watch me.' It seems Roland of Gilead has won another hand...

 

[barbzilla]

Since modding is a prime example of Sturgeon's Law, no I don't think it's important. Esp. since I think most modders completely miss the point of what, at least I think, the game was trying to achieve and actively seek to undo it.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed, I'm just saying it's not all that important.

Sturgeon's law or Sturgeon's revelation? I have a feeling you mean Sturgeon's revelation, and if that is so then you have invalidated your own point. Just because 90% of everything is crap, doesn't mean that the 10% isn't worthwhile.

OT: I think modding is very important and leads to a much healthier community for the game in question. You will notice that most of the older games that are still alive today (community wise) are games that have been modded heavily.

 

[neppakyo]

Erm, at darkass I guess! I just hit the 'quote' button and wrote what I wrote

Captcha: 'watch me.' It seems Roland of Gilead has won another hand...

Hehe, do my eyes deceive me, or was that a referece to the dark tower books, or poem..

Holy crap I have a new catchphrase. You just got schooled by Fishes!

You see? That exists. Someone thought it up on the spot and it is your fault. The blood is on your hands.

... I wouldn't want to be schooled by Fishes. Sounds so demeaning

 

[SadisticFire]

I say mods are always good for agame. It will most likley expand the life of the game as well as increase the entertainment from it. But I do think there are games that mods are less important. Where Fallout 3 felt like it needed mods much more than say, Call of Duty. But games that feel like should have mods can kinda feel empty. E.g Just Cause 2(Yes I know there is mods, but hardly much changes). I would rarely say mods aren't an improvement, but sometimes less important than just making an enjoyable game alone.