Poll: Money

[Bendon]

I've noticed lately that people in general have a problem taking a step back and examining things as a whole. This is quite well shown by one sad fact :

Money is a constant. It is God.

If you don't have money, you can't do much. If you don't have a lot, you can't change much.
Money makes people kill each other, blow each other, betray close friends and family. For what? It has no set value (it could though... Ron Paul 2012? :S)

It's paper. It's digital information. It's only as important as we say it is. It's the conch to our tribe of preteens.

In acting out the role of Simon here, I expect to catch a fair amount of flaming or trolling or various forms of passive aggressive mildly clever replies from pedants, but I like dat shit.

What I'm asking is this :

Is money the best way? Should we/could we invent a newer, better way? Could we tweak this one and make it better?


Also, and THIS IS IMPORTANT

Don't be outright dismissive. Try to think.

Don't skim through this and post something stupid. Especially if someone already said it.
Something like "I dont fink money is good because it is bad" or "i hav alot of money u r jus jellus"

Don't immediately assume the worst about any new idea.
An example would be :

Idiot #1 - "What about trading stuff of equal value"
Idiot #2 - "Obviously someone's going to rape your sister and drink all of your blood"

Keep in mind that money has it's fair share of problems already.

What say you?!


PS - Edited the poll... kinda pigeoned my thread into a hole there...

 

[AtticusSP]

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Bendon]

Don't be outright dismissive. Try to think.

Keep in mind that money has it's fair share of problems already.

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

:<

 

[Willwillwritehiswill]

They say money is the root of all evil. If you get rid of money some other currency will take it's place. Before you know it, Trading goods will be the root of all evil. You can't stop greedy people.

 

[Arntor]

For any large society to work they'll need some form of currency in order to compensate people into doing something they dislike. By giving rewards for labor, societies could thrive on products created without having to give up any of their possessions. It's just a refined form of the bartering system, but instead of trading one of your items of value the government gives you a certificate showing their debt to you and how much.

I presume we need money or people will waste resources at an even higher rate.

 

[Trilby]

Don't be outright dismissive. Try to think.

Keep in mind that money has it's fair share of problems already.

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

:<

On the other hand, he's right. The idea of a currency is something that has evolved slowly out of the bartering idea that you present, and while there may be some flaws, it works. I'm with Vetinari on this one. (The economy, on the other hand, with stocks and shares and gold and all the associated paraphernalia, I can't speak about, knowing practically bugger all about it).

The thing is, resource based trade is great, but money is effectively just that extended. Take ye olde traders who took cloth from one port to another in the hopes of trading it for something more precious in their homeland, like spice. That's great; you get a win-win trade (hopefully), and both parties are satisfied. Now, let's insert currency. Effectively, what this does is to insert middle-men into the system. Eventually, the money from that cloth might one day purchase spice, but it doesn't have to. It frees up the system, allows wealth to spread.

On the other other hand, money is only worth what we agree it is, and is only worth anything at all provided that a) the majority are in agreement and b) there is something to trade it for. On a desert island, I'd much rather have a radio or mirror than a wad of notes.

 

[Toners]

heh, that's officially the first time I've seen someone quote themself
also I have no money, so the system's clearly not in my favour at the moment.
MONEY WORKS. Alternatively it IS basically trading things for other things because without trade, you haven't really got a civilization. Essentially, you have no incentive to do anything without receiving anything in return (hence why communism doesn't work). Money is a good way of satisfying the incentive, since you can trade it for whatever you want.
EDIT: looks like someone gave a good definition before I posted

 

[ThreeWords]

Yes, methinks, because otherwise, how does one buys something like a house, or a car? Do you offer someone 10,000 cabbages, or half a ton of gold, or what? Money is a convenient representation of worth that is far easier to trade with and transport.

They say money is the root of all evil. If you get rid of money some other currency will take it's place. Before you know it, Trading goods will be the root of all evil. You can't stop greedy people.

Also, Will is right. You can't stop greed by blaming what people are greedy for.

 

[Zer_]

For any large society to work they'll need some form of currency in order to compensate people into doing something they dislike. By giving rewards for labor, societies could thrive on products created without having to give up any of their possessions. It's just a refined form of the bartering system, but instead of trading one of your items of value the government gives you a certificate showing their debt to you and how much.

I presume we need money or people will waste resources at an even higher rate.

Or they could endeavor to make the labor itself rewarding.

 

[Bendon]

okay, but you guys are focusing too much on the bartering idea (which was really just an example, that's why I named the guy idiot #1) and the fact that I question money as a whole.

Do you think that we can tweak the way money works now (like the distribution of it, or bringing back the gold standard etc)

 

[Skeleon]

Spoiler: They Live!

Anyway, let's just say that the abolishment of money is part of many utopias, because people believe envy and socio-economic differences just go poof once it's gone.
But even if you got rid of all the money, those differences would still exist; they'd just be enforced through different means such as owning production facilities, having access to special food, clothing, cars and so on.

Human beings tend to compete with each other all the time, if not with money then with something different.
A utopia where most of these differences are gone is pretty beautiful (think Star Trek) but also pretty much impossible unless humanity itself changes (which is very improbable).

Competition is part of our nature.

 

[hypothetical fact]

Sir I would like to buy these pens!
What do you have in exchange?
Well since something incredibly conveniant like money doesn't exist I will give you a yo-yo.
I don't want a yo-yo.
It is a very good yo-yo.
But I don't need a yo-yo.
(Someone walks by.)
Excuse me are you trying to get rid of a yo-yo? I would love one.
What do you have to trade?
I have a tennis ball.
Okay here is your yo-yo and I'll take the tennis ball.
Now sir since you didn't want the yo-yo, how about this tennis ball.
I don't want one of those either.
>:[

 

[101194]

Why do we have Currency when The Tradeing system worked way better? You can't tax the trade system...Assholes.

 

[Bendon]

Sir I would like to buy these pens!
What do you have in exchange?
Well since something incredibly conveniant like money doesn't exist I will give you a yo-yo.
I don't want a yo-yo.
It is a very good yo-yo.
But I don't need a yo-yo.
(Someone walks by.)
Excuse me are you trying to get rid of a yo-yo? I would love one.
What do you have to trade?
I have a tennis ball.
Okay here is your yo-yo and I'll take the tennis ball.
Now sir since you didn't want the yo-yo, how about this tennis ball.
I don't want one of those either.
>:[

Don't immediately assume the worst about any new idea

:<

Ideally, it would be more like :
"Hey, we both have yo yos. Awww but you also have a mustache"
"sorry"

 

[Doug]

For any large society to work they'll need some form of currency in order to compensate people into doing something they dislike. By giving rewards for labor, societies could thrive on products created without having to give up any of their possessions. It's just a refined form of the bartering system, but instead of trading one of your items of value the government gives you a certificate showing their debt to you and how much.

I presume we need money or people will waste resources at an even higher rate.

Or they could endeavor to make the labor itself rewarding.

Cleaning tiolets and the sick off of hospital wards will never be rewarding...well, expect to rare odd people!

 

[Kazturkey]

If you replace money with, say, barter system there are many problems inherent in that. For example, say you breed chickens, and you want beef. Now not only do you have to find someone in the vicinity who wants chicken, they also have to have beef. Not only that, but they have to want to trade what you see as a fair amount for a fair amount. Money removes this problem by allowing you to sell your chickens for cash and then buy beef with that money.

Oh, sidenote, before money people killed each other for cattle. So money didn't start the whole "murder for assets" thing.

 

[Bendon]

My biggest problem with money is this :

It rarely gets where it needs to go. This thread shouldn't focus just on if money should exist but should also get you thinking about whether we could improve the way it works now. Having a newer better system was just one point.

Also, try not to snap directly to communism to counter everything. Communism was a poop idea executed poopily(?) by poopy people. We know.

also stop focusing on the bartering
Idiot #1 made a boo boo. Let him be.

 

[Arntor]

For any large society to work they'll need some form of currency in order to compensate people into doing something they dislike. By giving rewards for labor, societies could thrive on products created without having to give up any of their possessions. It's just a refined form of the bartering system, but instead of trading one of your items of value the government gives you a certificate showing their debt to you and how much.

I presume we need money or people will waste resources at an even higher rate.

Or they could endeavor to make the labor itself rewarding.

Improbable given that in order for products to ensure the quality of a product, some standards need to be upheld so a manufactured product can remain consistent for the majority. As come standards, there will be people who disagree with the system set in place but there will need to be a consensus among the majority in order for a reformation. If everyone could do anything they wanted and society wouldn't collapse then perhaps we'll get rid of money. As I see it, money is a means to an end for what you want.

If anything, I hope technology advances far enough so that one day all that's required of us is to press button for a few hours so we can make a machine do some labor while allowing us to simultaneously engage in our hobbies. Drone labor should be kept simple, effortless, and multi-taskable, so we can save the effort for doing something we're more interested in.

 

[Doug]

Spoiler: They Live!

Anyway, let's just say that the abolishment of money is part of many utopias, because people believe envy and socio-economic differences just go poof once it's gone.
But even if you got rid of all the money, those differences would still exist; they'd just be enforced through different means such as owning production facilities, having access to special food, clothing, cars and so on.

Human beings tend to compete with each other all the time, if not with money then with something different.
A utopia where most of these differences are gone is pretty beautiful (think Star Trek) but also pretty much impossible unless humanity itself changes (which is very improbable).

Competition is part of our nature.

*Stage left entrance* Why its GENETIC ENGINEERING! MUWHAHAHAAHAHA!

Anywho, silliness aside, I can see one scenario where it may happen - a scenario I saw in the game "Hostile Waters". Basically, if the means of production become incredably cheap and self-replicating (almost certainly nano-tech), and energy becomes effectively free (again, nano-tech), then a possible utopia can emerge if managed correctly. Highly improbable at the moment, but one day...maybe...maybe.