Poll: Money

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Zer_

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Feb 7, 2008
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Skeleon said:

Anyway, let's just say that the abolishment of money is part of many utopias, because people believe envy and socio-economic differences just go poof once it's gone.
But even if you got rid of all the money, those differences would still exist; they'd just be enforced through different means such as owning production facilities, having access to special food, clothing, cars and so on.

Human beings tend to compete with each other all the time, if not with money then with something different.
An utopia where most of these differences are gone is pretty beautiful (think Star Trek) but also pretty much impossible unless humanity itself changes (which is very improbable).
It's not as improbable as you think. The concept of bartering still exists within Star Trek it's just that you do not need to barter to make a living.

In our earliest years as an intelligent and social species money didn't exist. We worked to survive. Today money acts like some sort of middle man between work and survival. A world without money isn't too difficult to imagine, although I do think that humanity currently cannot exist in a world without some sort of currency. Once the basic necessities of life become trivial in terms of cost and effort, money will have much less importance and thus our evolution above using any form of currency would begin.
 

Trilby

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Sep 13, 2008
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Kazturkey said:
Oh, sidenote, before money people killed each other for cattle. So money didn't start the whole "murder for assets" thing.
QFT: The Sanskrit word for "war" literally translates as "desire for more cows".

101194 said:
Why do we have Currency when The Tradeing system worked way better? You can't tax the trade system...Assholes.
Umm, yes you can? And I'm not quite sure where everyone gets this idea that the world ran on trading for a while and everything was smiles and rainbows and then suddenly the Pope or someone says "hey guys, let there be money" and then all the bunnies died. Currency is, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, a mere enlargement and liberation of the trading system.
 

Arntor

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Feb 5, 2008
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Bendon said:
My biggest problem with money is this :

It rarely gets where it needs to go. This thread shouldn't focus on if money should exist but should also get you thinking about whether we could improve the way it works now. Having a newer better system was just one point.

Also, try not to snap directly to communism to counter everything. Communism was a poop idea executed poopily(?) by poopy people. We know.

also stop focusing on the bartering
Idiot #1 made a boo boo. Let him be.
Eh, but isn't the way money works just you give me X-product for Y-amount of $? As stated before, currency is just a refined form of the bartering system.

I think reducing the effort in labor so that it's easy as breathing is better than coming up with a new system for money.
 

Ultrajoe

Omnichairman
Apr 24, 2008
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Trilby said:
Kazturkey said:
Oh, sidenote, before money people killed each other for cattle. So money didn't start the whole "murder for assets" thing.
QFT: The Sanskrit word for "war" literally translates as "desire for more cows".
I have never had a more burning desire to commit a fact to memory. You, sir, get 5000 Ultrapoints.
 

Zer_

Rocket Scientist
Feb 7, 2008
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Ultrajoe said:
Trilby said:
Kazturkey said:
Oh, sidenote, before money people killed each other for cattle. So money didn't start the whole "murder for assets" thing.
QFT: The Sanskrit word for "war" literally translates as "desire for more cows".
I have never had a more burning desire to commit a fact to memory. You, sir, get 5000 Ultrapoints.
This is a hold up! Now empty that cow vault into this bag! Do it, now!
 

StarStruckStrumpets

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Jan 17, 2009
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Willwillwritehiswill said:
They say money is the root of all evil. If you get rid of money some other currency will take it's place. Before you know it, Trading goods will be the root of all evil. You can't stop greedy people.
You can't...look at Mr Stay Puff from Ghostbusters...
 

Bendon

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Apr 1, 2009
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Arntor said:
Eh, but isn't the way money works just you give me X-product for Y-amount of $? As stated before, currency is just a refined form of the bartering system..
I mean like how it works as a whole. Who gets it, how it's earned, where it's goes etc...
 

Skeleon

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Nov 2, 2007
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SuperFriendBFG said:
It's not as improbable as you think. The concept of bartering still exists within Star Trek it's just that you do not need to barter to make a living.
Not within the Federation, does it? I mean, obviously I know about Ferengi but they are just a capitalist satire.

In our earliest years as an intelligent and social species money didn't exist.
True, but even without money the competition and trading already existed. We just traded wooden pearls for fur or a stone axe for food or whatever.
And even back then, social differences were everywhere.
As I said, if we got rid of money, the same problems would still exist, they'd just be using something else (i.e. actual goods).

To get rid of it entirely, we'd need a social utopia without any socio-economic differences which I find very improbable.
 

traceur_

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Feb 19, 2009
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Money's fine the way it is, we're not going to change the system any time soon.

Money is good.
 

Arntor

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Feb 5, 2008
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Bendon said:
Arntor said:
Eh, but isn't the way money works just you give me X-product for Y-amount of $? As stated before, currency is just a refined form of the bartering system..
I mean like how it works as a whole. 1. Who gets it, 2. how it's earned, 3.where it's goes etc...
1. Innovators, leaders of corporations that spread inventions of innovators, laborers who work for corporations.
2. Wooorrk. And coming up with some kick-ass inventions.
3. Where it goes depends entirely on the people.
 

Bendon

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Apr 1, 2009
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Skeleon said:
SuperFriendBFG said:
It's not as improbable as you think. The concept of bartering still exists within Star Trek it's just that you do not need to barter to make a living.
Not within the Federation, does it? I mean, obviously I know about Ferengi but they are just a capitalist satire.

In our earliest years as an intelligent and social species money didn't exist.
True, but even without money the competition and trading already existed. We just traded wooden pearls for fur or a stone axe for food or whatever.
And even back then, social differences were everywhere.
As I said, if we got rid of money, the same problems would still exist, they'd just be using something else (i.e. actual goods).

To get rid of it entirely, we'd need a social utopia without any socio-economic differences which I find very improbable.
competition will always exist, true, but there could be much less incentive for it with out money as we use it currently. It's kind of apathetic to use that as an excuse not to brain storm about this.

We could pool together resources (at least the developed countries) and try our best to share to a reasonable degree and still have currency as a reward for those who work and contribute to society to spend on things like games, movies fast food expensive clothes cars televisions gadgets etc...

I think it might be possible to provide a certain standard of living to people through the use of resource based trading while still allowing for the flow of money for some things like food, clothes etc...

A.K.A. countries pool resources and share reasonably to ensure that everyone at least has somewhere to live, money handles the rest?


Arntor said:
Bendon said:
Arntor said:
Eh, but isn't the way money works just you give me X-product for Y-amount of $? As stated before, currency is just a refined form of the bartering system..
I mean like how it works as a whole. 1. Who gets it, 2. how it's earned, where it's goes etc...
1. Innovators, leaders of corporations that spread inventions of innovators, laborers who work for corporations.
2. Wooorrk. And coming up with some kick-ass inventions.
3. Where it goes depends entirely on the people.
1. Laborers don't seem to get much... innovators don't always either. Also, why should a CEO get so much? It's a little uneven

2. Work doesn't guarantee good money. Firemen are a good example of this... :S

3. That's not entirely true either. That's a whole other can of worms. Just look at the recent bail outs in America. I'm sure a lot of people weren't so happy about that. Look at the war too! Big cost!


I'm noticing people seem eager to look at money in the most ideal light... but not anything else
 

YuheJi

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Mar 17, 2009
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Money too often comes directly from debt, and has become more debt than value. Where does most money come from? It magically appears after a bank lends money, and then lends more money not from what they actually have, but from what they believe that the previous loaner would pay back.
 

Skeleon

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Nov 2, 2007
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Bendon said:
*big snip*
Well, yes, it's called social democracy and it works.
I'm not being apathetic, I'm just confused because either you want something like social democracy which already exists (in some nations at least) or you want a totally improbable utopia (in which case, yes, I do find it unnecessary to debate because humanity as a whole has not changed in tens of thousands of years and won't anytime soon, either).
 

Bendon

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Apr 1, 2009
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Skeleon said:
Bendon said:
*big snip*
Well, yes, it's called social democracy and it works.
I'm not being apathetic, I'm just confused because either you want something like social democracy which already exists (in some nations at least) or you want a totally improbable utopia (in which case, yes, I do find it unnecessary to debate because humanity as a whole has not changed in tens of thousands of years and won't anytime soon, either).
it has to be one or the other? :p
I'm not really suggesting anything solidly, I'm just speculating. I'm not really sure what I want, which is the point here.
 

Arntor

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Feb 5, 2008
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Bendon said:
Arntor said:
Bendon said:
Arntor said:
Eh, but isn't the way money works just you give me X-product for Y-amount of $? As stated before, currency is just a refined form of the bartering system..
I mean like how it works as a whole. 1. Who gets it, 2. how it's earned, where it's goes etc...
1. Innovators, leaders of corporations that spread inventions of innovators, laborers who work for corporations.
2. Wooorrk. And coming up with some kick-ass inventions.
3. Where it goes depends entirely on the people.
1. Laborers don't seem to get much... innovators don't always either. Also, why should a CEO get so much? It's a little uneven

2. Work doesn't guarantee good money. Firemen are a good example of this... :S

3. That's not entirely true either. That's a whole other can of worms. Just look at the recent bail outs in America. I'm sure a lot of people weren't so happy about that. Look at the war too! Big cost!
1.The CEOs possess the tools required for marketing a product of the inventor. The inventor's income is directly tied to the CEO who wants to spread the product. If the CEO isn't getting paid for material goods, then the inventor probably isn't getting paid much either. Likewise, laborers working for the corporations should be expected to get paid less because they're exerting the least effort since they're doing routine work as opposed to full-scale management of a company (In most cases, inventors would most likely become CEOs as well).

2. It depends entirely on the work and your position. However, if individuals are feeling cheated, petitioning for higher salaries is probably the only path to take.

3. Oh, you meant where the government puts it...well, I have no solution for that yet.
 

Skeleon

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Nov 2, 2007
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Bendon said:
it has to be one or the other? :p
I'm not really suggesting anything solidly, I'm just speculating.
Well, maybe something inbetween, but the closer you get to the utopia the more pointless it becomes. Let's improve upon what we have, not jump too far ahead.
 

Zac_Dai

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Oct 21, 2008
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Eventually our technology levels will reach a stage where everything can be provided for free for very little effort but thats along way off.

Right now I don't trust the Fiat money system thats currently in use myself and I reckon the monetary system could be done a lot better.

But hey question anything about capitalism and you're labelled a commie.
 

Arntor

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Feb 5, 2008
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Bendon said:
Skeleon said:
Let's improve upon what we have
that's what I'm trying to say

okay now I really am confused haha
Improving on what we have means improving on the effort of labor (at least, for me).

Money is just the X to a big algebraic formula, we just need to find faster ways to solve it.