Poll: Morality of To Catch a Predator.

[TheLaofKazi]

The police enticing people to try and commit a crime and then arresting them for it and airing it for everybody to see, and having a major broadcast network profit from it? That doesn't sound very moral to me.

The problem here is we don't know whether or not the pedophile would have actually committed the crime if they weren't enticed into doing it. There a many moral, social and legal barriers keeping a pedophile from going out and having sex with underage teens and children. The problem is, the way this show tries to get them to do it remove several of those barriers, namely the one that involves having sex with an underage person against their will. The guy is convinced that this is a consensual thing. Otherwise, I really doubt a lot of these people would have done it.

Just because they are pedophiles doesn't mean they don't have empathy and morality, it's a sexual preference. Sure, it's harmful if acted out, but kept in the imagination and to fiction, it's harmless. That's the same for many fetishes out there. Violent sexual fetishes such as choking, gagging and rape are prevalent on the internet, but that doesn't mean people that are into that are going to go out and do those things the first chance they think no one will find out. It's that they don't want to hurt other people, especially against their will. This can be expanded into other interests as well. We all love violence. But we explore it in video games, books, films and music, because acting it out would involving hurting another person, and we don't want to do that.

 

[Rednog]

looked it up, most fo the cases end in conviction, the only time it didnt in mass was the murpy where the guy killed himself, his office (after he died) decided not to prosecute claiming no evidence, the orginization that did To Catch a Predator, claimed they did it out of cowardice because of the suicide (not really they just said the coward part, im guessing the suicide was implied)

so the show isnt even on any more btw

They ended in conviction, but a lot of the cases are slowly being overturned/ still in trial (partially due to a bloated criminal justice system). Two of them were overturned in 2009 on the grounds that there was no real victim in the alleged crime because they decoy and everyone involved in the chats/calls were of consenting age.
Also it is probably a very state to state problem or a bunch of the guys can't afford anything more than a useless public defender to do the legwork to overturn it.
Also the cases/stings started as early as 2004, with a 5ish or so possible prison sentence + getting off for good behavior/parole etc I'm sure a lot of these guys probably are just waiting out their last few months before they get out and bothering with the long amounts of time/money now that a legal precedent to overturn the ruling is set it just is pointless.

 

[Serenegoose]

It's not moral, it's exploitation, pure and simple. If they know who these people are, then enticing them into breaking the law - that is, applying pressure that simply didn't exist before is the exploitative thing to do. Encouraging them to break the law so you can arrest them. It would be moral if instead perhaps, once finding this out about people, they did some research, found some support groups, helped them get the help they needed, and improved someones life, whilst limiting the danger to those around them. If you're on the sex offenders register, if you're a convicted criminal, your life is basically over. Nobody will trust you. Nobody will hire you.

Is it moral to do that to someone for a TV show when you could use those same resources to get their life back on track? Of course not. It's monstrous.

 

[Bobzer77]

I don't really know, and I've actually been trying to form an opinion on it for a while.

Are paedophiles really evil for having feelings they can't control?

Now don't think I'm saying 40 year old men having sex with 12 year old's is ok, it's seriously disgusting and they should be punished but is the stigma associated with paedophilia stopping those who aren't bad people from seeking some sort of help for it?

I mean if you went to a psychiatrist and told them you were a paedophile, even if you asked for strict confidentiality I'm pretty sure they are obliged to put you on the register and report you. That means that person can't work in loads of jobs and what company would hire someone who's a registered paedophile?

Is the fact that these people can't get help or counselling leading them to do things that they really wouldn't do?

Hell I'm not even sure that wrong is the right word to use for paedophilia, can they help it? It certainly isn't good and soliciting sex with minors is definitely not alright, but are they bad because of urges they can't help?

I just dunno.

 

[PurplePlatypus]

It never seemed right to me.
I don?t feel sorry for the people involved, they shouldn?t have acted they should know better than to but nor should the police be in the business of enticing people to commit crime. It?s probably not even all that effective considering most abuse of the sort is committed by people the child already knows whether it?s a relative of a friend of the family. Incredibly few children if at all are protected by such tactics.

 

[Mumonk]

I am appalled that anyone here would vote anything but yes, this is a good idea. This reminds me of an old person I went to school with and I told him about that "bait car" and "bait bicycle" thing the police would do on cops sometimes, and he was like, "that's not fair, the car is just sitting there, they got no right." REALLY!?!? These people don't get punished enough.

Oh and about that edit in the OP about the guy that shot himself. Too bad they didn't cut his balls off first.

 

[Kraj]

Logic teaches us that morality can never be truly right or wrong, because all moral judgments have multiple points of reference.

annoying considering moral judgments obviously exist, but there are definitely and solidly no true moral judgments.

so; do as they will. I don't mind. I'm not a predator.

Logic doesn't teach anyone anything. It's a method for arriving at a conclusion. If you're suggesting that logic leaves absolutely no room for morality in any case, I'm going to have to call shenanigans.

Wrong terminology, logic forces you to arrive at a conclusion that morality cannot be "true". As I said previously, this is annoying, because MORAL JUDGMENTS OBVIOUSLY EXIST.
However insofar as morality being "true" it is simply not so. There is no "truth" in a moral judgment.

I'm sorry I did not make myself clear, and will refrain from further commentary, I don't want to test the boundaries of staying on topic on a thread.
/philosophygrad.

 

[pdgeorge]

I can't remember which method they use initially cause they never show it, they just drop you in at "old man talking with little child"
Who started up the conversation? If it's the 'child' then that's entrapment and a load a crap to even PRETEND like it's fair.
However if it's just "I am 10 year old girl looking for friends/fun" then it makes more sense (which I think it probably is)

What I hate the most about it is that picks up peoples faces and makes it obvious to EVERYONE who this one person is that visited someone. Lets be honest here, some of you white knights are going to say (and have said) "But it means we know who to keep our kids away from!"
Do you notice in EVERY episode, there is no parent? Guys driving from miles away meaning this is someone you have likely never met. The kid was home along and on the internet doing things a parent should have TAUGHT THEM NEVER TO DO!
I don't condone rape or violence, but I feel no sympathy for idiots who bring it upon themselves. It doesn't make it right that it happened, but you could have easily avoided it happening if you didn't *x* (In this case: go on the internet inviting older men over to your house. Though it is generally obvious the 'kid' is leading the guy on more then anything, it isn't hard to make someone want to push sex talk further if you reply correctly)

However, that said, it's not just the people who make the show who are at fault (I mean lets be honest, they are at fault for the shit they do) it's also the people who WATCH the show.
Shows like this do 3 things. 1) harbour fear in the stupid about the internet, 2) teach would be paedophiles things to look out for and 3) ruins peoples lives.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the people on the show aren't lying when they say "I've never done that before and I don't know why I did it" (IE: if it wasn't for you I would never have done it) a lot of the people in it are caught because they are in a moment of utter emotional weakness (this has happened several times) the girl shows interest, talks to the person. When a single comment is made about anything sexual (even kissing) the actor can milk that for a lot and get the person to ask more according to how they talk. (It's very easy to play people, you'd be surprised. It's even easier to play them when they are in a bad emotional state)

Then, even if it goes to court and they get acquitted because it was obvious how much BS there was, the show goes on TV, the persons life is permanently damaged and they can't sue back because they will automatically gain horrible media attention "paedophile sues to catch a predator!" you know what news outlets are like.

 

[insaneHoshi]

Soliciting a minor is a crime, sorry to burst your bubble. still not the shows fault, he killed himself, the show had nothing to do with it.

Except for the fact there were cameras and hansen outside his house, Hansen giving the cops his number etc.

for the year, why not, if they build up enough they can wiat, some shows wait as long or longer before airing.

As for the other quesiton, I dont know.

It's hard for a company to sit on footage in the can for a year. They spend the money today, but won't see a return on investment until next year? That's a hard sell in media.

also if they are conviceted they cna show more things

Hadn't thought of that. Thought that would mean... what, nearly a year between primary photography and air?

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that all of the guys from the show walked off scott-free once a lot of the details on how the investigation was conducted came out and I think almost all of them got out on the simple grounds of entrapment.

If that's true, I'd be very interested to see the article.

Ive been called evilbefore for my if they do wrong there fault attitude. if you everplayed DnD you know about the 9 axis morality system. Well once took a rather long and kinda fun "what aligment are you quiz"

so the break down between my freinsd (who took is seriously, not answered kill babies every time they could to get chaotic evil) was Alot of Neutrol and Chaotic Good, one Lawful Neutral, and one LAwful evil, I was the lawful evil.

The point of this, besides funny is, when a person breaks just laws, and their life is ruined, I feel no sympathy at all.

But theres this thing called presumption of innocence in out society, you see you cant punish someone before they are found guilty , But what this show does is punish people regardless of weather their proven guilty or innocent in a court of law.

On a complely different note could any of these suspects claim that they assumed they were going to a sting, since they see it so often in the media?

 

[Faladorian]

Okay so people are mixing up pedophiles and child molesters because they are clearly not the same thing. Pedophilia, when it comes down to it, is a fetish. It's just like any other fetish, except that it's illegal. And so say somebody is only attracted to people who are not fully developed. They have urges, but should not act on them. And the majority of people attracted to children do not act on it. It's only when they act on it and actually have sex with a child that they become a child molester. Which is illegal, and considered to be morally wrong in many places across the world. Now, I assume the people who are not sociopaths and are simply pedophiles would be so deeply embarrassed and ashamed from the encounter that they would seek counseling. And they should be given the chance to do so. Pedophilia can be suppressed in a person, as long as that person is mentally sound. On the other hand, people who rape children frankly should be arrested and possibly killed, because acting violently upon an urge is completely up to the individual, and if they can't control the urge to violate a person, they need to be institutionalized.

OT: Yes, and no. Depending on the severity (or even existence) of a medical condition in the person. People who are attracted to children and made a very bad decision but never intended to harm the child, should be put through therapy to suppress their urges. On the other hand, Molesters and rapists should be locked away. So they have the right idea, with the wrong means of execution.

 

[insaneHoshi]

Okay so people are mixing up pedophiles and child molesters because they are clearly not the same thing. Pedophilia, when it comes down to it, is a fetish. It's just like any other fetish, except that it's illegal. And so say somebody is only attracted to people who are not fully developed. They have urges, but should not act on them. And the majority of people attracted to children do not act on it. It's only when they act on it and actually have sex with a child that they become a child molester. Which is illegal, and considered to be morally wrong in many places across the world. Now, I assume the people who are not sociopaths and are simply pedophiles would be so deeply embarrassed and ashamed from the encounter that they would seek counseling. And they should be given the chance to do so. Pedophilia can be suppressed in a person, as long as that person is mentally sound. On the other hand, people who rape children frankly should be arrested and possibly killed, because acting violently upon an urge is completely up to the individual, and if they can't control the urge to violate a person, they need to be institutionalized.

OT: Yes, and no. Depending on the severity (or even existence) of a medical condition in the person. People who are attracted to children and made a very bad decision but never intended to harm the child, should be put through therapy to suppress their urges. On the other hand, Molesters and rapists should be locked away. So they have the right idea, with the wrong means of execution.

Ya but in the case of to Catch a predator the actors are very enthusiastic about the whole sex thing, Is an adult who has sex with someone like that by your standards a Molester and rapist?

 

[insaneHoshi]

No actully i admire the people who ran the show and I fell as if the man whom commited suiside is less then scum for being a child molestor,getting caught and not even having the courage to face justice, well Im not sure if I believe in god or not but I hope he burns in hell none the less.

For the suicide or that he wanted to watch the kid mastribate? Eternal damnation Seems kinda harsh

 

[Blind Sight]

I don't have a problem with the police using this technique to catch sexual predators, I do have a problem however with Chris Hansen using it for the sake of entertainment, especially with the horrible editing techniques they use.

 

[Faladorian]

Okay so people are mixing up pedophiles and child molesters because they are clearly not the same thing. Pedophilia, when it comes down to it, is a fetish. It's just like any other fetish, except that it's illegal. And so say somebody is only attracted to people who are not fully developed. They have urges, but should not act on them. And the majority of people attracted to children do not act on it. It's only when they act on it and actually have sex with a child that they become a child molester. Which is illegal, and considered to be morally wrong in many places across the world. Now, I assume the people who are not sociopaths and are simply pedophiles would be so deeply embarrassed and ashamed from the encounter that they would seek counseling. And they should be given the chance to do so. Pedophilia can be suppressed in a person, as long as that person is mentally sound. On the other hand, people who rape children frankly should be arrested and possibly killed, because acting violently upon an urge is completely up to the individual, and if they can't control the urge to violate a person, they need to be institutionalized.

OT: Yes, and no. Depending on the severity (or even existence) of a medical condition in the person. People who are attracted to children and made a very bad decision but never intended to harm the child, should be put through therapy to suppress their urges. On the other hand, Molesters and rapists should be locked away. So they have the right idea, with the wrong means of execution.

Ya but in the case of to Catch a predator the actors are very enthusiastic about the whole sex thing, Is an adult who has sex with someone like that by your standards a Molester and rapist?

Molester, yes. Rapist, no. Only if they have malicious, violent intent are they dangerous criminals; if not, just somewhat creepy social pariah. The point I'm trying to get across is if theyre thinking about having sex with children, they need to be rehabilitated. If they do have sex with those children, they need to be arrested. Even if it's not child molestation (say the recipient is willing) it is still statutory rape in the eyes of the court.

 

[Starke]

Ive been called evilbefore for my if they do wrong there fault attitude.

All you need to do now is get some minions.

if you everplayed DnD you know about the 9 axis morality system. Well once took a rather long and kinda fun "what aligment are you quiz"

so the break down between my freinsd (who took is seriously, not answered kill babies every time they could to get chaotic evil) was Alot of Neutrol and Chaotic Good, one Lawful Neutral, and one LAwful evil, I was the lawful evil.

Truly you are you're own best friend.

In all fairness I usually end up true neutral on those tests.

The point of this, besides funny is, when a person breaks just laws, and their life is ruined, I feel no sympathy at all.

See, the funny thing is, that's usually where I end up. As a law student you should be completely familiar with the concept that "justice" has nothing to do whatsoever with law.

But, the one caveat I'll puke out there is this: when a third party coerces someone into breaking the law, that's a special case. And, in this country recognized as a (pair of) special case(s) (entrapment (if the person manipulating you is a law enforcement officer) and coercion).

 

[insaneHoshi]

Okay so people are mixing up pedophiles and child molesters because they are clearly not the same thing. Pedophilia, when it comes down to it, is a fetish. It's just like any other fetish, except that it's illegal. And so say somebody is only attracted to people who are not fully developed. They have urges, but should not act on them. And the majority of people attracted to children do not act on it. It's only when they act on it and actually have sex with a child that they become a child molester. Which is illegal, and considered to be morally wrong in many places across the world. Now, I assume the people who are not sociopaths and are simply pedophiles would be so deeply embarrassed and ashamed from the encounter that they would seek counseling. And they should be given the chance to do so. Pedophilia can be suppressed in a person, as long as that person is mentally sound. On the other hand, people who rape children frankly should be arrested and possibly killed, because acting violently upon an urge is completely up to the individual, and if they can't control the urge to violate a person, they need to be institutionalized.

OT: Yes, and no. Depending on the severity (or even existence) of a medical condition in the person. People who are attracted to children and made a very bad decision but never intended to harm the child, should be put through therapy to suppress their urges. On the other hand, Molesters and rapists should be locked away. So they have the right idea, with the wrong means of execution.

Ya but in the case of to Catch a predator the actors are very enthusiastic about the whole sex thing, Is an adult who has sex with someone like that by your standards a Molester and rapist?

Molester, yes. Rapist, no. Only if they have malicious, violent intent are they dangerous criminals; if not, just somewhat creepy social pariah. The point I'm trying to get across is if theyre thinking about having sex with children, they need to be rehabilitated. If they do have sex with those children, they need to be arrested. Even if it's not child molestation (say the recipient is willing) it is still statutory rape in the eyes of the court.

But you dont think they should be put to death for stat rape, just violent rape?

No actully i admire the people who ran the show and I fell as if the man whom commited suiside is less then scum for being a child molestor,getting caught and not even having the courage to face justice, well Im not sure if I believe in god or not but I hope he burns in hell none the less.

For the suicide or that he wanted to watch the kid mastribate? Eternal damnation Seems kinda harsh

I was operating under the assumption he wanted to have sex with her vs just watch but if that is the case then my opinion still stands because he commited suicide vs facing up to his actions.

In the 20/20 investigation its implied that TCaP made the police arrest him on a Sunday, instead of waiting for the next day to do it at his office. This would mean that TCaP had a direct role in him commuting suicide rather than face justice. If he didn't see Cameras and the TCaP people outside his house would he still offed himself ? Also in the investigation the public servant actually called off the meeting with what he believed was the kid and TCaP repeatedly called him up to bait him into the trap. What really gets me is that TCaP probably wouldn't have done that if he wasn't a public servent, which would mean they are just in it for the sensationality rather then doing the right thing.

 

[Kanlic]

I fail to see how a single willing sexual encounter will completely destroy someone's entire being. When I was a kid, I couldn't imagine a relationship lasting longer than a few weeks at most. Also, feeling like an outcast is pretty much par for the course. It doesn't do any real damage.

That said, I'm far from a psychologist, so I'm not going to really argue about it.

PS - All that stuff you listed as the "This will happen" scenario really aren't that bad. Abandonment issues are easily the worst on the list, and they're really not that hard to deal with.

You don't think that having personal issues about trust and companionship won't severely damage a person's life? Then you are naive to think so friend.