Poll: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Masterpiece or a Mess?

[gandhi the peacemake]

It also brings out the most deplorable types of Weeaboos. The ones who un-ironically proclaim it be this bastion of entertainment that is superior to pretty much everything.

I unironically think it's superior to quite a lot of things, past and present. I would put it in the highest echelon of my entertainment hierarchy in a heartbeat. I don't understand why this suddenly makes you want to personally insult me. I don't think we've ever met before to give you any pretense for insulting me for my likes and dislikes.

before...I guess episode 16, i don't remember, if someonde does, correct me please, the show is really good. Yeah, Shinji sucks for most of the time, but there is always some glimpses of badassitude there so you can still root for the guy. But after 16 the show's quality just goes on a nose dive, even the author explained why in the manga edition. He was clinically depressed and wanted to kill himself and coudn't get a real treatment because of his contract.

1 - I'm assuming you mean after the episode wherein his Eva goes berserk and eats the Angel? That's episode 19.

2 - Hideaki Anno, the director of the TV show (the author and artist of the manga was Yoshiyuki Sadamoto), had already started treatment before he started work on Eva. If there was a nosedive, it wasn't due to him not being able to get treatment.

He was trying to finish NGE as fast as possible and obviously his state of mind made everything a mess, because let's face it, after Kaoru everything on that show went to hell. Things got nonsensical, the plot became as insane as possible and it was hard to take it seriously. That's actually the reason both the manga and the rebuild exists, because the author hated the results.

1 - I'd argue that his state of mind turned it into the masterpiece that it was, but I get your point, which is that his state of mind greatly influenced the end result.

2 - The Kaworu thing happened in episode 24, near the end of the series. So are you saying it goes downhill after episode 19, or episode 24?

3 - Actually, the manga started before the anime started airing. And it was Sadamoto's work, not Anno's.

4 - The Rebuild exists for many reasons, chief among them being the creators' desire to introduce Eva to a new generation, but Anno hating the original anime was not one of them, because...

5 - Anno has never stated that he hated the anime. He's said that it was a reckless and irresponsible undertaking, but also that it was the only thing he knew how to do.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Oh they are, but the piece of media they worship isn't shit, while the other is. Big difference there.

The point being that negatively judging fans for what they like is extremely childish. Your sentence could just as easily be used by Fox News when criticizing videogames.

People can dislike whatever they want, but when it starts to take on a 'you're stupid for liking what you like' form I get a bit annoyed.

 

[Fox12]

There's a lot wrong with EVA, but what it did well, it did REALLY well.

The Christian symbolism means nothing, it's like Norse mythology in the Thor movie. Completely inaccurate nonsense. It's just dressing for the salad. The plot falls apart at the end, and neither finale has any sense of closure.

However, where the show succeeds is as a brilliant character study. The characters are as subtle as they are brilliant. Asuke is loud and outspoken, yet she never says what she thinks, feels, or wants, and suffers from crippling self esteem issues. She does one thing and says another, so you have to judge her actions, not her words. Rei is the opposite. She says very little, but she's always honest, if not criptic, and speaks her mind. She is asukes foil, and they both build of each other. It's also a unique look into depression, which makes sense, because the writer suffered a mental break down half way through. You are literally watching a man work his way through his depression through his art, in real time. Shinji is his mouthpiece. It gives the work a certain gravity that its numerous imitators fail to deliver. It may be the best fictional analysis of depression I've ever seen.

Eva has many problems, but what it does well it does better than anyone else. You just have to take the good with the bad.

 

[Fox12]

It also brings out the most deplorable types of Weeaboos. The ones who un-ironically proclaim it be this bastion of entertainment that is superior to pretty much everything. Reality check: anything with an ending like that automatically precludes itself from carrying that mantle. Nothing worthy of such praise throws out good writing convention and gets through it unscathed. Fanfiction does it all the time, and thus has it's deserved reputation. Neon Genesis Weeaboo circle-jerk is no different.

You can say the exact same thing about people who hate the show. That's the thing with divisive media, it's divisive. Just like how people who dislike Dark Souls claim fans of that game are just pretentious circle jerkers.

Oh they are, but the piece of media they worship isn't shit, while the other is. Big difference there.

The only thing worse than over zealous fans is over zealous critics. Lets be reasonable.

Neon genesis is popular for a (legitimate) reason. It deconstructs a popular genre, delves into the psyche of the characters, and provided a unique look at depression. Other aspects of the show floundered, like the ending, and it was far from perfect, but to say that it has no artistic merit is silly. Lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. The characters in particular were brilliant. It's possible to belong to Eva withou belonging to some smug otaku culture.

 

[Davey Woo]

It's horrible, for me simply because of the last couple of episodes.

I'm not a big anime fan in the first place, the only reason I started watching it was because of the Critical Miss comics on here poking fun at it. I found it to meet my expectations most of the way through, in that the action-y stuff was pretty cool but everything else was a bit too melodramatic, then The last episode happened and it made me genuinely pissed off, I was angry that I'd spent about a week watching a few episodes a day just to end up with that ending that was utter trash.

 

[kasperbbs]

I don't know if i would call it a mess, but it definitely is no masterpiece. Huge chunks of it were painful to watch and the ending was .. I don't really know how to describe that nonsense.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Plus it's really deep, sooooo many layers of philosophy and psychology to think about!!!

As cheesy as it sounds, this is what gets me. Shows, movies, books, video games - I like my entertainment to be about something and Evangelion has so many subtle distortions of anime tropes, character traits, and nerd wish fulfillment. For example, at one point it's mentioned that the second impact caused it to be summer all year round, which is a reference to the fact that a lot of anime take place exclusively in summer. I like that I can think about it a year after watching it and still realize this stuff

As for whether or not it's a mess, I don't really think so. In the end, I feel the series and it's final movie accomplished what it set out to do, which is deconstruct the mecha genre and wishful fulfilling tropes with a dark and harsh story. I personally enjoyed all of it, even the episodes where the budget ran out. I also watched the series for the first time last summer when I was 21 so I don't think it's the kind thing you had to see when it came out, or you needed to be 14 to appreciate it

 

[Supdupadog]

Personally, 2.22 is one of my favorite movies of all time.

 

[Zontar]

It's something that is, when you look at the pieces, really nothing special and massively overrated by fans, but at the same time it's the type of train wreck that you just can't look away from and has had so much influence on anime today it's not even funny. Or explainable. It just is.

It also doesn't help that the level of pretension and depth without meaning is on a level not seen since the movie version of 2001, where like it much of the audience was tricked into thinking there was much more at hand then there actually was and the story was actually quite shallow when compared to what a lot of people think it actually is.

That being said, on a slow afternoon on a weekend I'll gladly watch an episode or two from the good acts (first and second) when I have time to kill, and disregarding the third act and the movie it's actually pretty solid (and from the looks of it the same applies to the rebuild movies, with the movies taking the place of each act. I'm not looking forward to the 4th).

 

[CelestDaer]

I really hate NGE, and I think it's because of Shinji more than anything else, he's such a boring character, "No, don't make me pilot the giant monster that's been mind screwed to work for us, Dad! Don't make me get to know these two girls... one of whom is... a clone of Mom? No, really, what the hell made you think that was a good idea?"
However, I love that anime fans ranted and raved at Hideaki Anno about the end of the series, and he basically said "Screw you," and made the movie even less straight forward. That takes balls.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

Eh. It's okay. It's kind of a mess, but that doesn't make it awful. It was pretty good, and it was a very influential anime, for better or for worse. However, I still don't think it's a masterpiece, and I didn't think it was as horrifying as some people seem to think it is.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

I actually saw the last two episodes of Eva again a couple months ago, and End of Eva again just a week ago.

Wow. I mean wow. I remembered Evangelion was good, but those endings (both of them!) are just extraordinary. The TV ending shows a path to self-actualization, and then EoE burns it.

NGE is a powerful, powerful show, and I don't think I've seen any anime that's so personal, and shows such passion from its creators. Look at that TV ending, and look not at how little animation there is, but how much there is. Cobbled and rushed together with shoestrings and canned coffee, and yet all these people worked together and didn't just manage to succeed, but they pushed the medium of animation into places it hadn't gone before.

Evangelion is a masterpiece and a mess, but many would argue you can't have the one without the other.

 

[Zontar]

Evangelion is a masterpiece and a mess, but many would argue you can't have the one without the other.

Not really, there are plenty of masterpieces which are not messes and vice versa, this one just happens to be a rare example of something which is a masterpiece because it's a mess.

 

[Gennadios]

All I can say is that it's allright. I saw a few episodes with a friend of mine. I enjoyed watching it, but never really felt the draw to see it on my own afterwords.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

I would tend to say it is decently good, between "alright" and "very good" on your poll.

My main problem with the series is that it is so aggressively metaphoric. At a certain point, I just wanted to grab Gainax by their collar and say: "Look, metaphors are methods of communication, not weapons." Nadia and Gunbuster were actually better shows in my opinion, because they felt as though they treated the audience with a bit more respect and less intensity. Due to the circumstances surrounding the series, and Mr. Anno's mental state when he conceived the basic ideas, it is understandable how this happened, but it really causes the series' core narratives to be. . . a bit off balance.

I am one of the people who also felt that the series ended just fine at episode 26 as well, and I felt that the "movies" released afterword were basically gigantic middle fingers aimed at not just the people who sent Mr. Anno death threats, but also many of the hardcore fanbase in general. Those original films were greatly detrimental to the work as a whole, in my opinion, which may be why he decided to release those new video animations. Basically, the original ending dropped the giant mechs to focus on the emotional journey of Shinji, which makes sense to me, but I guess it was controversial at the time.

Overall, the show has its problems, but on the other hand, it caused me to think, and it seemed to invite everyone who watched it to do the same. So for that I have a reasonably positive opinion on it.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

Evangelion is a masterpiece and a mess, but many would argue you can't have the one without the other.

Not really, there are plenty of masterpieces which are not messes and vice versa, this one just happens to be a rare example of something which is a masterpiece because it's a mess.

Well, I don't believe a masterpiece must be messy. To me, Madoka Magica was a flawless masterpiece, so I can't think that. But there are others who feel a certain degree of messiness must be present in true self-expression, that the roughness creates the brilliance. The lotus grows out of the mud, as the Buddhists say.

Although it's not a belief I subscribe to, I also think it has some merit. Revolutionary Girl Utena is another candidate for greatest anime of all time (and deservedly so) - although since it's so much less well known than Evangelion it doesn't really have a hatedom - and it's an abstract surrealist tangle of ideas and themes and expressions, told in a repetitious, less-than-ideal manner, probably influenced by the creator's prior involvement directing Sailor Moon.

 

[gandhi the peacemake]

It's also a unique look into depression, which makes sense, because the writer suffered a mental break down half way through. You are literally watching a man work his through his depression through his art, in real time.

Agreed on most of your points, except to clarify that his mental breakdown happened before Eva ever aired. It was the recovery from it that happened in realtime. Take that for what you will, but I just want to make sure the timeline of events is clear.

I am one of the people who also felt that the series ended just fine at episode 26 as well, and I felt that the "movies" released afterword were ... greatly detrimental to the work as a whole ... Basically, the original ending dropped the giant mechs to focus on the emotional journey of Shinji, which makes sense to me, but I guess it was controversial at the time.

The series ending, particularly episode 25, contain quick shots of scenes that would later play out in EoE - Misato lying on the floor with a bloodstain trailing her on the wall, Ritsuko's coat floating in a pool of LCL, Asuka sitting in her Eva (at the bottom of the lake in EoE) - which leads me to believe that both of these endings are supposed to be taking place at the same time. The series ending, like you said, focuses on the emotional journeys of its characters (and Shinji in particular after Third Impact commences, which makes sense once the movie shows he's the only "human" left in the world), whereas the movie ending seems to be a more literal ending that follows up on the real-world events of Episode 24.

That said, I agree that the movies can be considered a big "Fuck you" to the fans. But it isn't simply "Fuck you" for the sake of "Fuck you." It's "Fuck you I'm going to do what the characters and I NEED not what you WANT," which is commendable. I can definitely see why Anno has some derision for his own fanbase.

EDIT:

Revolutionary Girl Utena is another candidate for greatest anime of all time (and deservedly so) - although since it's so much less well known than Evangelion it doesn't really have a hatedom - and it's an abstract surrealist tangle of ideas and themes and expressions, told in a repetitious, less-than-ideal manner, probably influenced by the creator's prior involvement directing Sailor Moon.

I've heard people mention Utena as a great anime as well. Myself, I never got into it as a child, but my sister did and she had a good time with it. The one complaint I remember her making about it was that the movie succumbed to providing fanservice for fanservice's sake, ie the kiss or something between the two main characters at the very end.

...as they lie in a rose-covered sports car racing into the distant horizon, I think? Yeah, that show was weird.

I wonder if it could be considered a precursor to the current Mahou Shoujo Deconstruction Anime that is Madoka Magica. (I think? There have been a lot of magical girl stuff lately, I can't remember which is which.)

 

[Dr. Cakey]

Revolutionary Girl Utena is another candidate for greatest anime of all time (and deservedly so) - although since it's so much less well known than Evangelion it doesn't really have a hatedom - and it's an abstract surrealist tangle of ideas and themes and expressions, told in a repetitious, less-than-ideal manner, probably influenced by the creator's prior involvement directing Sailor Moon.

I've heard people mention Utena as a great anime as well. Myself, I never got into it as a child, but my sister did and she had a good time with it. The one complaint I remember her making about it was that the movie succumbed to providing fanservice for fanservice's sake, ie the kiss or something between the two main characters at the very end.

...as they lie in a rose-covered sports car racing into the distant horizon, I think? Yeah, that show was weird.

I wonder if it could be considered a precursor to the current Mahou Shoujo Deconstruction Anime that is Madoka Magica. (I think? There have been a lot of magical girl stuff lately, I can't remember which is which.)

Well, the movie is the movie. It's not a sequel or a remake, or even a recap, but a compressed story covering most of the same overarching themes. Despite being rather confusing, to me it serves almost as a "How to Watch" of Utena. And the choice of making Utena and Anthy's relationship explicit (very explicit) in the movie is a complex choice. Leaving their relationship implicit is appealing to a Western perspective because it doesn't feel gratuitous, but considering it from a Japanese perspective it stinks of platonic girl/girl romance, one of a number of things Japan imported from Europe and never got rid of. And it's also very thematically appropriate. On the other other hand, Utena is a tomboy, wears a boys' uniform, and wants to be a prince, which is absurdly butch. Each choice has its benefits and drawbacks.

Making a connection to Madoka is appealing, but I don't see it. They are both magical girl deconstructions (god I hate that word), but they cover very different ground. Utena is almost absurdly feminist, in that it's about women and men trapped in a power system which degrades them and their self-images (but like actually). Madoka is actually a fairly typical magical girl story, just for an older audience and written with a particular vision. After thinking about it, though, their endings are really similar, but I think that has more to do with both creators appreciating where their stories and characters needed to be pushed.

On the whole, if you were to ask me to draw parallels between Utena/Madoka and other popular shows (not "one inspired the other", just conceptual parallels), I'd connect Utena with Evangelion and Madoka with...oh, maybe Gurren Lagann. Trigun wouldn't be a bad fit, either.

Well, that was too many words about that.

 

[Casual Shinji]

It's something that is, when you look at the pieces, really nothing special and massively overrated by fans, but at the same time it's the type of train wreck that you just can't look away from and has had so much influence on anime today it's not even funny. Or explainable. It just is.

It also doesn't help that the level of pretension and depth without meaning is on a level not seen since the movie version of 2001, where like it much of the audience was tricked into thinking there was much more at hand then there actually was and the story was actually quite shallow when compared to what a lot of people think it actually is.

How can someone overrate something that is totally subjective? If you take a toothpick and say 'I'm going to hamer a nail into a piece of wood with this' that's overrating something. When you say "I think NGE is one of the best shows I've ever seen" that's simple stating an opinion. And for that matter, how can someone be tricked into thinking there is more at hand when they're viewing something from their own perspective?

 

[Goro]

Love it or hate it it seems like I should watch it so I can at least join the conversation! And I have some time off, so time to get in on it. I understand it's a 26 episode series with ?3? follow on movies. Or, it's the directors cut re-dux as a series of movies, which includes everything. Is the original on blu ray, it just the re-dux?