Poll: New forum rules - Yay or Nay?

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TriGGeR_HaPPy

Another Regular. ^_^
May 22, 2008
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Whytewulf said:
Well, I am clean, but I think it's a bit harsh, when you rely on your community and you are starting to drive them away. How about a period where things do get better if you do. Unless it's a major infraction. Alas, we don't really have an option, but to bring our business elsewhere and not post. Guess we shall see.
Unfortunately, you seem to be forgetting the however-many-there-are people who watch the videos/read the articles on The Escapist, but haven't joined up, and don't really care about the quarrels within our forum. They'll still happily keep the numbers up for The Escapist if a tiny portion of its forums stop posting (which, in itself, really won't do much).

The thing I love about this whole thing, is that the previous rules were apparently "too ambiguous". People were still complaining about them right up until the new rules were in place. And now that the rules are the same, but they have examples like people asked for, everyone's throwing their arms up in rage?

To re-iterate: These new rules will not change how you can act on these forums to any great deal. If it's unacceptable now, it was unnacceptable a week ago. All they've done is given examples on what it not allowed - the same examples that users kept asking for.
 

Susan Arendt

Nerd Queen
Jan 9, 2007
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Xanthious said:
I still would like a public answer as to my inquiry about The Escapist staff and ad blockers. Are there members of the staff that use them or do you fellas abide by the guidelines you expect others to follow and either disable or remove them? I expect that a site that punishes people for even so much as admitting to using one would themselves not allow them on any company computer. Right? Or is this a case of telling members to do as you say not as you do?

And let's not kid ourselves this rule is against ad blockers not merely admitting to using them. If you could find a way to tell if they are being used or not and punish those that use them you would. A mod a ways back all but admitted as much.

Again, it would seem that if you feel that strongly as to think it's ok to punish folks for using something that comes standard on most browsers anymore then it would stand to reason the staff shows any website they visit the same courtesy as they expect theirs to be shown and browse them in the full glory of every pop up and layover ad and auto playing video they wish to throw at you.

I can respect strict rules when they are applied to everyone equally. What I don't have a stomach for is hypocrisy and double standards.
Staff is automatically in the pub club, which turns off all ads. Some folks here still have them on, though.
 

Spinwhiz

New member
Oct 8, 2007
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Asehujiko said:
Why are adblockers in the same quickban list as pedophilia?
What constitutes an ad blocker? Does NoScript count as one because it occasionally removes some of the more intrusive ones?
What does it mean with posts "including" them? Does it mean I have to crop my toolbar when I post screenshots of flash game highscores?
Is Mozilla.org illegal to link to because there are ad blockers in it's addon repository?
They aren't illegal, we just ask people not to advocate the use of it. The Escapist makes its revenues through ads, so if people are using adblockers, The Escapist will eventually no longer exist or remain free. So, we ask people just to not bring it up at all. It's just easier that way.
 

Sad Face

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Oct 29, 2010
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I understand that stricter rulings make it easier for mods to...moderate, but it looks like this "health" system is actually going to cause a lot of trouble. When saying the word "troll" is the same as typing a page of obsenities and racism a lot of people are going to end up unfairly banned.

It's already making a lot of people nervous by the looks of it.
 

Naheal

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Sep 6, 2009
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Spinwhiz said:
Bon_Clay said:
Spinwhiz said:
That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
I would say to send in an appeal then. They have the ability to read your plead for change and change it.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.

I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
 

Xanthious

New member
Dec 25, 2008
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Susan Arendt said:
Staff is automatically in the pub club, which turns off all ads. Some folks here still have them on, though.
I figured as much. The heart of my question, which was largely answered a bit back by Virgil, was whether or not The Escapist extended the same courtesy to the websites they visit on a daily basis that they want extended to them. My point being it would be amazingly hypocritical to ask the members here to not use them (or advocate using them as it is) if the Escapist staff used them to browse other sites in any way shape or form.
 

Heart of Darkness

The final days of His Trolliness
Jul 1, 2009
9,745
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Since most of these rules are the same as the last update, and I didn't comment on that update, I think I'm just going to talk about what I find problematic with these rules. Here goes nothing.

Da Rules said:
Don't Be a Jerk
First issue I have here: "Don't be a jerk" is too broad to actually be of any use (it's like going to a public pool and one of the rules telling you to "Don't do anything dangerous"). It's broad, it's subjective, and the next section, "Have Respect for Others," covers essentially the same thing, just with less examples. I feel that the first two sections should be merged, use the title of the section section as the rule, and then use the title of the first section as a guideline instead of a rule, something along the lines of: "As a general rule, try not to be a jerk. If you think that what you say may enrage someone, consider rephrasing your argument." It's a minor nitpick, though. Next comment.

Da Rules said:
Have Respect for the Site and its Content

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way. They are entertainers and if they brought their language or flaming into the forums, they would be held accountable, just as any other forum member of The Escapist would be.
This seems hypocritical. Your content is always going to draw like-minded people to your site; if your content creators post videos that are deliberately filled with bile and hate (Zero Punctuation, for instance), you're going to attract more people with that mindset to your site. Think about it like this: a band who's songs are mostly about sex, illegal drugs, and violence is going to attract an audience that likes sex, illegal drugs, and violence. If you don't want people mimicking what they see in your videos, tell your content creators to either reign in their act, or remove those restrictions from your userbase.


Da Rules said:
Similarly, posts including, advocating, or linking to illegal or adult material are a very quick way to end your time as part of The Escapist community. An example of these are:
-Ad Blockers
Ad blockers aren't illegal, please don't insinuate that they are. I know you're trying to protect your bottom line, but if your revenue is so dependent on ads that ad blockers pose a threat to your company's well-being, it's time to rethink your company's business plan and how you generate cash flow. Techdirt [http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100306/1649198451.shtml] had a good article on this, and punishing your users for using an ad blocker is ultimately going to hurt you in the long run.

Part of being a media company means you need to grow and adapt to any threats, real or perceived, to your bottom line. Instead of punishing users for using ad blocking software, find a way around that software to generate more revenue. But don't blame us, your customers, when we're not making you enough money.

Da Rules said:
Penalties

The Escapist forums are different from other forums on the internet. We try to maintain a system that balances intelligent discussion, debate and fun. The penalty system is meant to provide guidance to users - it allows users to better understand the rules and adjust to the differences from other Internet forums. The Escapist uses a strike system that grants you a maximum amount of 8 penalties to learn how to adhere to forum policies. Once a threshold has been broken, there is no way to gain strikes back.
Last point: this seems like an overly draconian way to handle forum moderation. Forums that I have visited that use a similar health system usually also have ways of decreasing the number of strikes against a user, usually by not inciting moderator action against them for a period of time. The system that the Escapist has chosen to use, however, feels like we, the customers, are being treated like criminals just for posting on the site. We're being constantly monitored, and after receiving eight strikes against us--no matter how small or insignificant--will end up banning us from the forums, even if those eight offenses were spread across 10+ years.

Hell, in some ways this system is worse than real world penalty systems. In Florida, for instance, points on your license will stop counting against you after a maximum time of three years (Source [http://www.flhsmv.gov/ddl/faqpoints.html]). Criminal records can also be sealed and expunged, and they stop counting against you once they are. Even if the system that the Escapist is using only removed one point after, say, a six month period (based on good behavior), it would go a long way in making the system in seeming a little more "fair." That's not to say the record needs to be removed; just giving your users a strike back is more than enough. If you're worried about people "gaming the system," keep track of how much of a warn level that user has, and when, and use that data to look for people who might be trying to use the system to cause discord in the forums.

Right now, though, it's unfair treatment to the users. Banning is now no longer a matter of "if," but "when." Users now need to pussyfoot through their posts in their discussions, because if they post something that could even be seem as slightly offense by one person, they get slapped with a permanent mark against them, with the only chance at redemption being available through the appeal process (since I haven't used it, I'm not going to comment on it). This isn't a conducive way to promote discussion on the boards; users holding controversial, unpopular, or minority opinions might be afraid to actually post and discuss those opinions with other users, out of fear of being labeled a troll, which then turns the forums not into a place of discussion, but rather a machine that spits out nothing but agreeing opinions (no real source on this, but I know this is how some people on these forums feel about this).

Anyway, that's just my two cents. Hopefully I was able to keep my thoughts on the matter somewhat cohesive.
 

Trolldor

New member
Jan 20, 2011
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cp.06 said:
Meh, rules are rules. Until the Escapist starts banning 'undesirable topics' and the like whenever it wants, I'm pretty happy with however they want to run their website.
Ah the "so long as I'm not affected" defence.
 

barbzilla

He who speaks words from mouth!
Dec 6, 2010
1,465
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I really have no problems with the new rules. I frequent many forums and most successful ones have similar rules (though I suppose that depends on how you define success). Over all the changes are not that major over what they were before so it shouldn't cause too much of an outcry.

I do think that the wording on the infractions could be a bit more concise,however it shouldn't be an issue. The only time I have ever had an infraction from a mod on any forum was years ago, and it was a misunderstanding (long story short I was friends with one of the mods and was joking around with him, another mod saw it and thought I was flaming the mod in question. Infraction lifted after the situation was explained). I have been on many forums for many years with nothing major.

The rule don't be a Jerk. I have zero issues with this one as well. I think it is well founded and should help ensure productive discussion instead of the arguing that is better left to private messages.

The only rule I see any potential problems with is post content. There are times where questions are directly asked in a previous post and the only answer needed is a concise one. I am sure the mods will take that into consideration though.
 

Spinwhiz

New member
Oct 8, 2007
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Naheal said:
Spinwhiz said:
Bon_Clay said:
Spinwhiz said:
That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
I would say to send in an appeal then. They have the ability to read your plead for change and change it.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.

I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.

If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
 

Kargathia

New member
Jul 16, 2009
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One question: in the new rules you refer to "Illegal drugs / acts in the USA". Am I to read this as "Drugs/acts illegal in the USA", or am I allowed to happily discuss reefer as long as I have a disclaimer explaining I'm Dutch? =)
 

Azaraxzealot

New member
Dec 1, 2009
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SummerMcLovin said:
Just checking the changes...

If the health bar is the only change, being a quiet good boy makes it fine for me!
it's harder than you think. there are SO MANY trolls on this site that never get in trouble for their actions.
 

theultimateend

New member
Nov 1, 2007
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Generic Gamer said:
So I am now on 'yellow' for accruing far less probations than most users manage in a year?

Oh fuck this noise, way to completely neuter debate! Why should I debate a point when I can be probated for holding a contrary opinion if enough people report me? basically this "forum" is now an agreement machine!
I kind of thought that was the goal of any forum that wants to generate revenue. Minimize fighting to maximize profits?

posts written with the sole intention of irritating people
I like that one because it describes basically every post I've ever read.

Except for the pony posts, those are generally friendly.

Overall I'm not too worried, I'll just post less :p. The videos here still work.

Spinwhiz said:
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.

If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
Yeah. I recall ages ago getting in trouble for what (I thought) was an obvious joke. Don't recall the exact details anymore and don't really care. But since then I don't read replies to my posts anymore and since doing that I've not gotten a single warning.

My problem with "walking away" is stupid comments grate away at my brain. But I have found by never reading responses I never get that feeling anymore. It's nice. Dulled and a bit boring at times, but nice.
 

Naheal

New member
Sep 6, 2009
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Spinwhiz said:
Naheal said:
Spinwhiz said:
Bon_Clay said:
Spinwhiz said:
That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
I would say to send in an appeal then. They have the ability to read your plead for change and change it.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.

I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.

If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
These are exceptions, not the tendency, though, and you know it. People get angry and post things that wouldn't normally go there. Rationality doesn't come into play when people get angry enough. We're just not wired to work like that and people are going to make mistakes. Hell, people who frequent the R&P forums get warnings and suspensions fairly regularly, unless part of your goal is to filter out all but the maybe 3 people that frequent there that seem to be fine.

That specific area of this forum tends to inflame people more than any other part and, because of this, we are constantly getting new blood because of this.

I'm not saying that the record needs to be eliminated; far from it, actually. I'm saying that the frequency and the severity of the infractions needs to be taken into account when we're talking about punishment, otherwise you're asking people to be unrealistically saintly or quiet.
 

Xanthious

New member
Dec 25, 2008
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Spinwhiz said:
Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings.
I keep seeing you throw this number out and I think it's rather misleading. How many of those 99% are actually active members with a reasonable number of posts under their belt? I'd wager a good percentage of those are people who scoot in make a single post, say for March Mayhem, and aren't seen again. I'd be interested in seeing what percentage of users with say more than 50 or 100 posts to their name have multiple warnings.
 

Susan Arendt

Nerd Queen
Jan 9, 2007
7,222
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Xanthious said:
Susan Arendt said:
Staff is automatically in the pub club, which turns off all ads. Some folks here still have them on, though.
I figured as much. The heart of my question, which was largely answered a bit back by Virgil, was whether or not The Escapist extended the same courtesy to the websites they visit on a daily basis that they want extended to them. My point being it would be amazingly hypocritical to ask the members here to not use them (or advocate using them as it is) if the Escapist staff used them to browse other sites in any way shape or form.
Oh, sorry to give you repeat info. There's a lot of posts to wade through. :) But no, none of us use ad blockers for other sites. (At least not here in the office - I can't vouch for what people do in the privacy of their own homes!) We understand on a very personal level how much ads impact a site's well-being, and we would never deny other sites that revenue. I know it's hard to think of us as people, as opposed to some big faceless company, but we are.

Naheal said:
These are exceptions, not the tendency, though, and you know it. People get angry and post things that wouldn't normally go there. Rationality doesn't come into play when people get angry enough. We're just not wired to work like that and people are going to make mistakes. Hell, people who frequent the R&P forums get warnings and suspensions fairly regularly, unless part of your goal is to filter out all but the maybe 3 people that frequent there that seem to be fine.

That specific area of this forum tends to inflame people more than any other part and, because of this, we are constantly getting new blood because of this.

I'm not saying that the record needs to be eliminated; far from it, actually. I'm saying that the frequency and the severity of the infractions needs to be taken into account when we're talking about punishment, otherwise you're asking people to be unrealistically saintly or quiet.
You're absolutely right - even the best-intentioned person can get heated and make a mistake. Which is why it takes *eight* strikes to get booted from the forum. EIGHT. That's plenty of chances.
 

TikiShades

New member
May 6, 2009
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This definitely seems a bit harsh, even if I don't think it'll affect me. Besides, I kind of like trolls every now and then. They keep things interesting. XP
 

binvjoh

New member
Sep 27, 2010
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Well I sort of moved into a yay or at least a "it doesn't bother me" after I got a nice and quick response through PM by Spinwhiz.

Honestly, if I've only managed to get on warning so far I probably shouldn't worry all that much. I do still sort of wish that the "strikes" disappeared over time.
 

Woodsey

New member
Aug 9, 2009
14,553
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Spinwhiz said:
Naheal said:
Spinwhiz said:
Bon_Clay said:
Spinwhiz said:
That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
I would say to send in an appeal then. They have the ability to read your plead for change and change it.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.

I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.

If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
Speaking of warnings, are the warnings of old being counted against us? For low content posts, etc.?