Poll: Poll: BioWare or Bethesda?

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Another

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Spectrum_Prez said:
Bioware is a company that cares first and foremost about storytelling, and they are constantly working to perfect that ancient art. Bioware is not interested in making good RPGs, they are interested in making good interactive stories. They use the RPG format as a tool to achieve their goal, but loyalty to the RPG tag is always secondary. That's the only way I can interpret the Mass Effect series' development. Further evidence can be seen in the way they create their levels. Buildings and cities are abstractions with only parts relevant to the story warranting any detail. Almost all levels are linear with a start and an end, just like the chapter of a book.

Bethesda, on the other hand, is primarily concerned with exploration, discovery, and mastery of your environment. Story is always secondary, and is used as a tool to create opportunities for exploration or to flesh out the world. That's why they have had and will probably always have much better side-quests and factions than Bioware. It's also why their main quests usually don't get much love. Every house should have a door, every mountain should be scalable, every cave should have inhabitants or a story behind it. They are all about providing you with a world to fool around in, and the freedom to prioritize what you should do next. The natural downside, of course, is that they often overreach and have to cut costs in terms of NPCs.
These two paragraphs sum up this entire debate to me. I still like Bethesda but this really highlights why Bioware got my vote. I'm a story guy, I love a tight character driven story. Bioware gives me that, even if plot devices tend to repeat game to game. They just write and present it so well that I don't notice, and when I do I don't care.
 

vivster

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bethesda

i only played one game of them and that was oblivion
played 2 games of bioware and hated both(ME 1, DAO)

if i want to walk a corridor for hours...i walk a corridor for hours...
 

Frozengale

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Bethesda I would have to say.

While I do enjoy KoTOR, Jade Empire, Dragon Age, and the like (sadly haven't played Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2, can't seem to get them to work on my laptop) Bethesda offers bigger more open worlds and better Role Playing experiences in my opinion. Bethesda gives you a land to get lost in, and you don't ever have to play the game the way you would a general game, you can do whatever you want whenever you want. In New Vegas you can even be a complete pacifist, people have beaten the game that way. I skipped huge entire quest lines in New Vegas by being smart and resourceful. You can go exploring and the game will never be the same twice, and you get offered to do some of the most amazingly fun things that prove how open this game is. For example, in New Vegas you can get yourself in good with the Brotherhood of Steel, steal all their security cards and blow up their entire bunker leaving them without a home. I'm sure there is a quest related to this somewhere but who cares you can do it for fun! You don't have to find the events that trigger it like in a Bioware game, go do what you want when you want to!

Bioware has awesome games, but if you want a more open and incredible Role Playing experience then you have to put your money on Bethesda.
 

acosn

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Neither.

Bioware loves their cliches too much and Bethesda is a bit too notorious for bugs for me to say their games are worth putting in that high a caliber of game.

I'll take option three and simply say that I like Diablo 2 more than KOTOR, Tales of the Abyss more than Fallout 3 (In terms of actual RPG elements) and Skies of Arcadia more than the Elder Scrolls.
 

theriddlen

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CCountZero said:
theriddlen said:
CCountZero said:
Strictly speaking, though, they're Action-RPGs, with greater simmilarities to Borderlands than "real RPGs".

That aside, they still rock. BioWare is still #1 on my list.

(And as a sidenote, the reason they were "de-RPG'd" is *readies FireRes gear* consoles *cough*)
RPG - Role Playing Game. You are playing the role of Commander Shepard, choosing what he should say and how he should act, choosing how his abilities, and how they evolve.
It is not connected to D&D or anything like that. Action-RPG? I haven't ever played an RPG without action. Swords, fireballs, bows, assault rifles - whats the difference? It's just another way to slaughter orcs/trolls/bandits/eclipse mercs.

These genre stereotypes are created by some elitists who still don't understand that world of games had moved on - and so did the genres.
By that rationale, the term "JRPG" shouldn't exist. Yet it does. How odd is that? :)

RPG is such a wide term that it has multiple sub-genres.
Saying "RPG" could mean anything from Final Fantasy VII to Neverwinter Nights, through Borderlands with a pitstop in Deus Ex and a holiday in Oblivion.

Surely you can see that there's a MASSIVE difference between just those five examples, to such an extent that putting them under the same roof could cause confusion?
JRPG is just a RPG made in characteristic Japanese style, and it is not part of every RPG. Action is standard part of every RPG - i played classic RPG's like Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale, and i played Sacred, Gothic, TES III and Mass Effect. All of them had action, all of them were Role Playing Games. Genres are wide, and that's the point of their existence - classifying large amounts of games in one definition.
Ah, technically all of these games are cRPG - computer RPG. Amusingly, i heard many people calling RPGs that weren't build like these classic ones cRPG, as if that meant something bad.
 

CCountZero

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bl4ckh4wk64 said:
CCountZero said:
For me, it did the first time. Don't get me wrong, I totally like the game, I got it for 360 at release and for PC at release ('cus PC rulez), but I must admit that I was thoroughly disappointed at the "epicness" of the gameplay.

Judgeing from trailers, and the intro movie, you're like "OMG; this is CRAZY AWESOME! Nail my D to a burning building, long as I can play this game while you do it!"

The remaining 99.5% of the game didn't really reflect that feeling, though. In that sense, I feel it failed miserably.

Mass Effect 2 remedies this completely, in part by scaling down the opening scene, which I believe is for the best, really.
Yea, some of the gameplay was bland but what kept me playing was the characterization and the plot. How can you say that battle with the 5th fleet vs Sovereign and the Geth wasn't epic?
To me, it actually felt kinda staged.

For a comparison, the whole post-Relay scene-dealie in ME2 was much more... fluent? I'm not sure how to express it really.
 

CCountZero

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theriddlen said:
JRPG is just a RPG made in characteristic Japanese style, and it is not part of every RPG. Action is standard part of every RPG - i played classic RPG's like Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale, and i played Sacred, Gothic, TES III and Mass Effect. All of them had action, all of them were Role Playing Games. Genres are wide, and that's the point of their existence - classifying large amounts of games in one definition.
Ah, technically all of these games are cRPG - computer RPG. Amusingly, i heard many people calling RPGs that weren't build like these classic ones cRPG, as if that meant something bad.
To clarify, let me first state that I in no way consider any of my proposed subgenres to be inferiour.

I do feel that the subgenres are quite important though.
When you're talking to another person about games, it helps a lot to be able to put things in boxes.
As you say, all RPGs can be put into the RPG box, but if you sort it like that, you end up with over 40% of all games ever made. That's a big gard damn box...

That's why people like myself break them down further.

It's true that all RPGs have Action. Nearly all games do. Games like SimCity aside, the action is what makes them interesting.

However, some games have a direct focus on Action.
These games include, for instance, the First Person Shooters.

Now, looking at a game like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or Neverwinter Nights, they certainly have action elements, but compared to ME, Borderlands, Deus Ex, or FPS' like CoD, MoH, Halo & UT, they don't come anywhere near those levels of it.

That is why I classify them as "Action-Adventure" and "Action-RPG", or whatever other classification fits, based on their gameplay elements.

Oh, and as a sidenote, your previous comment about "genre stereotypes [being] created by some elitists who still don't understand that world of games had moved on"... that's just BS; sorry to say :p
 

GeorgW

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Aug 27, 2010
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C95J said:
GeorgW said:
It's not even a question for me, Bioware all the way! Bethesda's games are so glitchy nowadays... But old school fallout was great!
I didn't think Fallout 3 was that buggy, and Oblivion was alright too. Never played the old Fallout games though...

Cuy said:
To my knowledge, there are no bad Bioware games. But there are bad Bethesda games. So yeah, Bioware it is.

Just look at all of those games and tell me I'm wrong. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bethesda_Softworks_games]
I thought Mass Effect was a bad game, and I loved Oblivion and Fallout 3. Bethesda it is!
Did you play the second one? The gameplay is improved a lot. But the RPG parts suffers. I'm still surprised they didn't get qualified as a 3PS instead of an RPG. ME's strongpoint is the story, and more precisely, the universe. I'm soo looking forward to the movie.
 

rockyoumonkeys

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Mr Godfrey said:
rockyoumonkeys said:
Eh...both are great, but Bethesda loses points for having their name attached to the abomination known as Fallout New Vegas. I know they didn't develop it, but they still published it.

Bioware's games are great, but I think I still enjoyed getting lost in the worlds of Oblivion and Fallout 3 enough to even the scales.
Fallout New Vegas wasn't bad. A few glitch issues (which were pretty overplayed in my opinion), but still a good game.
No. Sorry. You can't tell me that the countless freezes and sound problems that I experienced were "a few glitch issues which were pretty overplayed." They made the game unplayable. Maybe you were lucky. Maybe I wasn't. But for me, the game froze constantly, far far worse than any other game I've ever played. That's not "a few glitch issues", that's a thoroughly broken game.
 

C95J

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Apr 10, 2010
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GeorgW said:
Did you play the second one? The gameplay is improved a lot. But the RPG parts suffers. I'm still surprised they didn't get qualified as a 3PS instead of an RPG. ME's strongpoint is the story, and more precisely, the universe. I'm soo looking forward to the movie.
I always wanted to get the second one, but I don't want to risk my money. I haven't seen too much gameplay but I have heard it is better.

(I will find out soon though because my mum is getting it on her PS3 so I will just borrow it :D
 

GeorgW

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Aug 27, 2010
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C95J said:
GeorgW said:
Did you play the second one? The gameplay is improved a lot. But the RPG parts suffers. I'm still surprised they didn't get qualified as a 3PS instead of an RPG. ME's strongpoint is the story, and more precisely, the universe. I'm soo looking forward to the movie.
I always wanted to get the second one, but I don't want to risk my money. I haven't seen too much gameplay but I have heard it is better.

(I will find out soon though because my mum is getting it on her PS3 so I will just borrow it :D
Your mum plays ME2? That's cool!
 

C95J

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Apr 10, 2010
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GeorgW said:
C95J said:
GeorgW said:
Did you play the second one? The gameplay is improved a lot. But the RPG parts suffers. I'm still surprised they didn't get qualified as a 3PS instead of an RPG. ME's strongpoint is the story, and more precisely, the universe. I'm soo looking forward to the movie.
I always wanted to get the second one, but I don't want to risk my money. I haven't seen too much gameplay but I have heard it is better.

(I will find out soon though because my mum is getting it on her PS3 so I will just borrow it :D
Your mum plays ME2? That's cool!
yep :D she has been waiting for it ever since her xbox broke with ME1, so lucky for me I guess :)
 

ELD3RGoD

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Apr 23, 2010
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The Elder Scrolls is so much better than Mass Effect. I'm Sorry, but I played Oblivion and Morrowind for (easily) over 300 hours -

I couldn't stop completing them and replaying them, completeing them and replaying them to see how it would be different if i did this, completing them and replaying them again using this race or this weapon. Then I found some amazing Mods and did it ALL again.

With Mass Effect, I completed it once, and realised I had to complete it again as a good guy to be a good guy in ME2 (Chore.) Then with Mass Effect 2, I completed it, got some of the DLC and traded it in through sheer boredom (Wow, scanning planets is immersive...)

I love both developers and KOTOR remains one of my favourite ever games, but I feel that Bethesda understands the RPG genre much better than Bioware and RPG is MY element. :)
 

C95J

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Apr 10, 2010
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C95J said:
GeorgW said:
C95J said:
GeorgW said:
Did you play the second one? The gameplay is improved a lot. But the RPG parts suffers. I'm still surprised they didn't get qualified as a 3PS instead of an RPG. ME's strongpoint is the story, and more precisely, the universe. I'm soo looking forward to the movie.
I always wanted to get the second one, but I don't want to risk my money. I haven't seen too much gameplay but I have heard it is better.

(I will find out soon though because my mum is getting it on her PS3 so I will just borrow it :D
Your mum plays ME2? That's cool!
yep :D she has been waiting for it ever since her xbox broke with ME1, so lucky for me I guess :)
Hey, just my luck! Mass Effect 2 is down from full price to only £5 today! Just ordered, so I will get to play it after all!
 

josephmatthew10

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Spectrum_Prez said:
This is how I understand the Bethesda/Bioware thing.

First of all, it should be stressed that both companies have taken long strides away from the Diabloesque grind + loot formula. Those RPGs morphed into MMORPGs and the single-player variety have largely died out, thank goodness. In reality, I don't think either Bethesda or Bioware really care about the leveling and looting part of their games as much as they care about what I've bolded below.

Bioware is a company that cares first and foremost about storytelling, and they are constantly working to perfect that ancient art. Bioware is not interested in making good RPGs, they are interested in making good interactive stories. They use the RPG format as a tool to achieve their goal, but loyalty to the RPG tag is always secondary. That's the only way I can interpret the Mass Effect series' development. Further evidence can be seen in the way they create their levels. Buildings and cities are abstractions with only parts relevant to the story warranting any detail. Almost all levels are linear with a start and an end, just like the chapter of a book.

Bethesda, on the other hand, is primarily concerned with exploration, discovery, and mastery of your environment. Story is always secondary, and is used as a tool to create opportunities for exploration or to flesh out the world. That's why they have had and will probably always have much better side-quests and factions than Bioware. It's also why their main quests usually don't get much love. Every house should have a door, every mountain should be scalable, every cave should have inhabitants or a story behind it. They are all about providing you with a world to fool around in, and the freedom to prioritize what you should do next. The natural downside, of course, is that they often overreach and have to cut costs in terms of NPCs.

As a side note, I don't think Obsidian really understood the Bethesda 'spirit' when they made FNV. Invisible walls are pretty much the polar opposite of what the latter's design philosophy is all about.
You, sir, have summed up my entire thread (and personal feelings) in one post. Good job! :)
 

josephmatthew10

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Jun 24, 2010
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Some other thoughts:

I've noticed both companies have interesting experiences with Obsidian; Obsidian made the 2nd KOTOR and developed F:NV. Obsidian often seems to do a great job continuing in the spirit of the previous company... ALMOST. many people believe F;NV was too closed-in compared to F3. Many people (like me) believe KOTOR 2 was pretty great until LucasArts pushed it out 6 months early and then Obsidian shit the bed, ripping out too much and ruining the ending (not to mention they made the big villain a pussy compared to his reputation.)

Just throwin' that out there.