Poll: Poll: "Tainted" by the fandom

[eatenbyagrue]

While my case is about a specific (and, admittedly, rather large) fandom, the topic itself isn't about griping about fandoms you don't like.

Some time ago, I posed this same question to a group of friends: "Is it okay to dislike something not based on its own merits, but based purely on the people who enjoy it?"

And while I understand that the statement carries elitist, hipster "I don't like what's popular because its popular" undertones, this is more about stereotypes. I'm sure many of you have some passing familiarity with this. As one Daniel Floyd once said, "You wouldn't be ashamed to read a book in public, but there are people who would be ashamed to play even the best games on a bus."

I personally choose to avoid specific fandoms, purely because of the kind of people who tend to associate with it. Yes, I know I'm missing out on a lot of great works, but in my line of work (I'm a teacher in my day job) "respectability" is something that you have to maintain, and to be lumped in with these groups by association would damage mine.

And yes, I understand that there are pitfalls: as a wise muppet once said, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." While I am not proud of it, I have indeed attempted to cause suffering upon people who are fans of these same things, judging them purely because of what they enjoy in their spare time. It happened, and to this day, I still have shame over it.

But what about the rest of you: is it okay to judge a work purely because you don't like the people who are associated with it?

 

[tippy2k2]

I couldn't care much less than I already do about fandoms. To me, the work is the work and the fans are the fans. I suppose it might keep me from going to certain places (like concerts for specific bands or conventions for things) but if something is a good work, that is all I care about. I'm an adult; the opinions of others is so low on my list of priorities that it may be underground at this point.

I will love (or hate) something on it's own merits; not because I'm not "allowed" to like musicals as a guy or because I'm supposed to hate Nickelback.

 

[shrekfan246]

"Is it okay to dislike something not based on its own merits, but based purely on the people who enjoy it?"

I seem to recall a thread titled very similarly a few months back.

But it seems to me that there's a difference between avoiding a piece of work and avoiding the people who regularly associate with it. While I can appreciate that the greater public might not make the same distinctions, I don't avoid playing video games simply because of what other people might think if they find out it's one of my favorite hobbies.

To put it simply, no, I don't think something should be judged simply because of the people who regularly talk about it. In that situation, all the person judging is doing is speaking from a position of willful ignorance. But it depends on how you judge it. If you're going to go full hyperbole and say "[Thing] sucks because [People Who Like Thing] are weird as hell", then sorry, I'm more likely to disregard your opinion than theirs. It's fine to be put off of something because of what you see coming out of the fanbase, but to automatically assume that the thing itself is terrible because of said fanbase is doing a disservice to yourself and to the person or people who created it.

And trust me, I know exactly how creepy some of these people can get. I like Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

[Phasmal]

I voted `Maybe`.

No matter how positive a work is or how positively you feel about it, it will always have some percentage of fans who are terrible. That's kind of just how people are.
Sometimes if my fandom contains too much weirdness on the fan-side, I won't really talk about it with people who are not fans just in case they've heard about it and will make stereotypical assumptions.
But other times I just think `Fuck it, I can like this if I want to- people shouldn't assume stupid shit`.
I try not to judge other fans, unless they're being intentionally toxic. Someone enjoying something I like in a different way to me isn't going to hurt me.

So it really just depends how you feel about it at the time and how you choose to see it. I don't really have much fandom-shame, but I have the sense of who to talk about these things with and who not to.

 

[eatenbyagrue]

"Is it okay to dislike something not based on its own merits, but based purely on the people who enjoy it?"

But it seems to me that there's a difference between avoiding a piece of work and avoiding the people who regularly associate with it. While I can appreciate that the greater public might not make the same distinctions, I don't avoid playing video games simply because of what other people might think if they find out it's one of my favorite hobbies.

And trust me, I know exactly how creepy some of these people can get. I like Sonic the Hedgehog.

1) See, the "greater public" part is what trips me up. If someone's parents catch wind that I enjoy something that enough of them just happen to perceive as "deviant", then it could very well cost me my job. It's one of the problems with jobs that require you to be some sort of moral authority.

2) I never understood the "Sonic the Hedgehog" thing. Is there a problem with Sonic fans?

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

I'd say no, since ultimately it's not the fans you're supposed to like, but the work itself. But if you rephrased that question to "Is it okay to avoid certain things because of their fans?", I'll be happy to agree.

 

[shrekfan246]

"Is it okay to dislike something not based on its own merits, but based purely on the people who enjoy it?"

But it seems to me that there's a difference between avoiding a piece of work and avoiding the people who regularly associate with it. While I can appreciate that the greater public might not make the same distinctions, I don't avoid playing video games simply because of what other people might think if they find out it's one of my favorite hobbies.

And trust me, I know exactly how creepy some of these people can get. I like Sonic the Hedgehog.

1) See, the "greater public" part is what trips me up. If someone's parents catch wind that I enjoy something that enough of them just happen to perceive as "deviant", then it could very well cost me my job. It's one of the problems with jobs that require you to be some sort of moral authority.

How delicately can I phrase this...

I feel this is where discretion is key. I'll admit I don't know the finer points of teaching contracts or whatever or how the school board would respond, but I fail to see how something like "He likes My Little Pony" or "He plays video games" would cost you a job (that's just to use some simple examples that typically pop up on the internet, of course). But there aren't many situations where a discussion of that sort would naturally pop up in the classroom, are there? Don't get me wrong, some of my fondest memories of my high school teachers were really getting to learn about some of the things they did when they were younger, but it's where you have to pick and choose what you're going to talk about. If something has an association with a "seedier" side of pop culture or the internet that you don't think would be appropriate to bring up in a public space, don't bring it up. You don't have to avoid it entirely. I mean, obviously you're perfectly entitled to do as such but again, I think you're doing a massive disservice to yourself and the content creators if you, say, refuse to watch any anime just because of the creepy otaku who show up on the internet and at cosplay cons.

2) I never understood the "Sonic the Hedgehog" thing. Is there a problem with Sonic fans?

There are many "problems" with Sonic fans. Many similar "problems" have been ascribed to Bronies in the past few years. But to stay away from the more unsettling side of the story, that's the fanbase that threw a massive tantrum around the time Sonic Adventure hit stores because Sonic's eye color was changed to green, and the flame wars raged across the internet forums for years afterwards.

 

[eatenbyagrue]

How delicately can I phrase this...

I feel this is where discretion is key. I'll admit I don't know the finer points of teaching contracts or whatever or how the school board would respond, but I fail to see how something like "He likes My Little Pony" or "He plays video games" would cost you a job (that's just to use some simple examples that typically pop up on the internet, of course). But there aren't many situations where a discussion of that sort would naturally pop up in the classroom, are there? Don't get me wrong, some of my fondest memories of my high school teachers were really getting to learn about some of the things they did when they were younger, but it's where you have to pick and choose what you're going to talk about. If something has an association with a "seedier" side of pop culture or the internet that you don't think would be appropriate to bring up in a public space, don't bring it up. You don't have to avoid it entirely. I mean, obviously you're perfectly entitled to do as such but again, I think you're doing a massive disservice to yourself and the content creators if you, say, refuse to watch any anime just because of the creepy otaku who show up on the internet and at cosplay cons.

I'm not sure how it is where you are (I'm assuming the flag in your profile is accurate, so you're in the USA), but this might just be a quirk of where I work. I'm a Filipino, and for the purposes of this, all you need to know about the country is that:
1) It's predominantly conservative in thought and belief, especially among the lower and middle classes
2) Filipinos like to gossip, especially about "public figures" (politicians, famous people, and even teachers)
3) Filipinos, like many Asians, dislike direct confrontation. If there's an "easy" way to avoid a fight, they'll probably take it

Now, part of the training I had in university was to make the subject matter "real" to your students by relating it to things they understand. When I was doing my internship, my cooperating teacher (the teacher who was training me) told me to always be careful what you tell students, because it might find its way to their parents. So if say, for the sake of argument, I relate something from an anime to a student, and he talks about it to his parents. Given the first fact (and given this country's past history with Japan), the parents' schema ("idea") of anime may very well be those dirty cartoons they see him watching on his computer.

Given the second fact, naturally they will discuss this with other parents (you can see where "Teacher mentioned anime in class" can become "Teachers discussed porn in class"). Finally, given the third fact, when it comes to the school board, they may very well just decide to fire me instead of having to face legal troubles with the parents.

 

[Foolery]

I chose maybe. Here's why.

I don't like Doctor Who. I?ve watched a few episodes, and it's ok, I guess. I?m not saying that it?s bad, but nothing special either. B-grade sci-fi goofiness. However, I had a roommate who obsessed over it. Still does. When you live the same vicinity of a person who spouts references such as 'Fezzes are cool' 'Timey-Wimey' too often, yeah, it kinda ruins it a tad.

 

[shrekfan246]

always be careful what you tell students, because it might find its way to their parents.

That was the big thrust of my block of text.

I mean, I don't think teachers would be treated quite so harshly over the same things over here, but at the end of the day it still remains true that you need to be mindful of what you say. But that doesn't mean you need to be ashamed of the things you like or choose to avoid them entirely. It just means (and I apologize for the wording) you should have the presence of mind to know when to hold your tongue.

For instance, I'd like to become an English teacher at some point in the future. I enjoy the Song of Ice & Fire series by George R. R. Martin. I would not bring up said series during class if I were teaching a junior high or freshman/sophomore high school class of students, because I don't think the subject matter is appropriate for young teenagers (and they likely wouldn't be able to get into it anyway, but that's beside the point). But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it in my own time, does it?

I don't know how easily gossip can get out for you, but I still hold the opinion that you should enjoy what you enjoy, and damn the other people who are associated with it. If the stereotype is that bad, then just don't bring it up and find something else to talk about instead. But I'll admit that I probably live in quite different circumstances comparatively, so maybe it's just my upbringing or culture that causes me to think in such a manner.

 

[eatenbyagrue]

That was the big thrust of my block of text.

So it was, but the whole "gossip" thing is always a good way to get a bad reputation.

It just means (and I apologize for the wording) you should have the presence of mind to know when to hold your tongue.

Sadly, that's the part that took me the longest to learn, and one of the signs that, to my professors, I was finally "ready".

For instance, I'd like to become an English teacher at some point in the future.

It's a difficult, and at times thankless, job (seriously, I almost got fired earlier because one of my students told her parents that I was "out to get her") but ultimately, I wouldn't want to do anything else with my life.

I don't know how easily gossip can get out for you, but I still hold the opinion that you should enjoy what you enjoy, and damn the other people who are associated with it. If the stereotype is that bad, then just don't bring it up and find something else to talk about instead. But I'll admit that I probably live in quite different circumstances comparatively, so maybe it's just my upbringing or culture that causes me to think in such a manner.

It's probably one of those cultural things. It's like Scylla and Charybdis: people will gossip if you hide things, and if you don't hide things, they gossip about that. Sadly, people here aren't as open-minded, so people like me have to be extra-super-double careful about what we let slip.

 

[DementedSheep]

Maybe, I don't think fans have ever made me really dislike something I would otherwise like but it dose make me like things less in part because it can make it difficult to talk about that thing with other people because most of the fans annoy you or the fandom has a stigma attached to it. Discussing something you like and sharing it with other people is part of the fun. On the flipside if people talk about it too much you get sick of it.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think it depends on how committed you are to the actual piece of work. If you're really committed to begin with I don't see the fans being a big deterrent. If, however, you're on the fence then a fanbase can certainly be enough to push you over the edge.

For myself, as an example, I've only ever been mildly interested in anything Valve does. Valve's fanatical fanbase that tends to praise anything and everything that they do as perfection irritates me enough to not even want to try the games at all.

 

[Tom_green_day]

There are some things I am ashamed to say I like due to the other people that like it.
Such as Bon Jovi. Or 24. Or games in general.

 

[EternallyBored]

How delicately can I phrase this...

I feel this is where discretion is key. I'll admit I don't know the finer points of teaching contracts or whatever or how the school board would respond, but I fail to see how something like "He likes My Little Pony" or "He plays video games" would cost you a job (that's just to use some simple examples that typically pop up on the internet, of course). But there aren't many situations where a discussion of that sort would naturally pop up in the classroom, are there? Don't get me wrong, some of my fondest memories of my high school teachers were really getting to learn about some of the things they did when they were younger, but it's where you have to pick and choose what you're going to talk about. If something has an association with a "seedier" side of pop culture or the internet that you don't think would be appropriate to bring up in a public space, don't bring it up. You don't have to avoid it entirely. I mean, obviously you're perfectly entitled to do as such but again, I think you're doing a massive disservice to yourself and the content creators if you, say, refuse to watch any anime just because of the creepy otaku who show up on the internet and at cosplay cons.

I'm not sure how it is where you are (I'm assuming the flag in your profile is accurate, so you're in the USA), but this might just be a quirk of where I work. I'm a Filipino, and for the purposes of this, all you need to know about the country is that:
1) It's predominantly conservative in thought and belief, especially among the lower and middle classes
2) Filipinos like to gossip, especially about "public figures" (politicians, famous people, and even teachers)
3) Filipinos, like many Asians, dislike direct confrontation. If there's an "easy" way to avoid a fight, they'll probably take it

Now, part of the training I had in university was to make the subject matter "real" to your students by relating it to things they understand. When I was doing my internship, my cooperating teacher (the teacher who was training me) told me to always be careful what you tell students, because it might find its way to their parents. So if say, for the sake of argument, I relate something from an anime to a student, and he talks about it to his parents. Given the first fact (and given this country's past history with Japan), the parents' schema ("idea") of anime may very well be those dirty cartoons they see him watching on his computer.

Given the second fact, naturally they will discuss this with other parents (you can see where "Teacher mentioned anime in class" can become "Teachers discussed porn in class"). Finally, given the third fact, when it comes to the school board, they may very well just decide to fire me instead of having to face legal troubles with the parents.

While I can only speak from an American perspective, there is some of that in the teaching, social work, and political professions. Most famously, you occasionally read stories about a teacher or government worker being fired because they post a picture of themselves at a bar drinking on their facebook page, or they talk about partying on a social networking site.

Generally this doesn't carry over to fandoms though. People on the internet tend to overestimate how much the average person actually knows about the stereotypes and people who populate fandom. In my experience, a teacher who likes anime isn't going to be associated with hentai or otaku, because the average person doesn't know anything about anime beyond maybe it being cartoons from Japan, if even that much.

As another example, my old roommate is an elementary school history teacher, he's also a pretty hardcore Brony. Only a small number of his students ever learn that fact, and even less of their parents, and the most common reaction has nothing to do with the internet's conceptions of the topic. The most common reaction is more along the lines of, "wtf is a brony, I've never even heard that word before", and that's only when the kids know what it is and tell their parents, since he doesn't actually advertise that fact to his classes in any way.

As long as you're acting in a professional setting, the types of media you enjoy really shouldn't come up if you believe they might cause the wrong associations, I don't ever tell my clients that I enjoy cartoons and video games, unless they bring it up first and the situation is relevant enough that I think revealing that personal factoid will help my relationship with my client in the future, otherwise there is zero reason for them to know about my personal life and what media I enjoy.

Society isn't fair though, and yes while other hobbies like sports and music can usually be displayed very publicly with no issues, the same cannot be said for all things. Putting pictures in my office of my last fishing trip is A-OK and I will do it with zero hesitation. Bringing my various figurines from home of some of my favorite video games characters probably won't get me fired, but it will likely cause awkwardness and friction in the office, so I don't do it. I still freely enjoy those hobbies at home and amongst friends, and will talk with coworkers who share those same hobbies, but there is a different level of acceptance with how openly you can display your love of something, my former roommate has never received any crap for liking cartoons and MLP, but if he brought toys to work, and spent class time trying to compare lessons to the various cartoons he enjoys, he's probably going to draw criticism from parents.

More on topic, no, a fandom has never seriously impacted my love or enjoyment of the core canon work. A particularly bad fandom, or bad parts of a fandom will effect how I interact with the fandom itself, for example, I'll avoid sites and groups that I view as particularly toxic. Overall, I have yet to encounter a truly intolerable fandom, and even the largest and most surly (Star Wars right around when the prequels were coming out), has had plenty of large groups of perfectly sane people willing to talk about the works with me, so the worst I've ever done was decide not to participate in the fandom while enjoying the core work in my own fashion. While other people can influence my initial impression of a work, it has never stopped me from enjoying it once I find out that I like it.

 

[Cerebrawl]

I'm not sure how it is where you are (I'm assuming the flag in your profile is accurate, so you're in the USA), but this might just be a quirk of where I work. I'm a Filipino, and for the purposes of this, all you need to know about the country is that:
1) It's predominantly conservative in thought and belief, especially among the lower and middle classes
2) Filipinos like to gossip, especially about "public figures" (politicians, famous people, and even teachers)
3) Filipinos, like many Asians, dislike direct confrontation. If there's an "easy" way to avoid a fight, they'll probably take it

Now, part of the training I had in university was to make the subject matter "real" to your students by relating it to things they understand. When I was doing my internship, my cooperating teacher (the teacher who was training me) told me to always be careful what you tell students, because it might find its way to their parents. So if say, for the sake of argument, I relate something from an anime to a student, and he talks about it to his parents. Given the first fact (and given this country's past history with Japan), the parents' schema ("idea") of anime may very well be those dirty cartoons they see him watching on his computer.

Given the second fact, naturally they will discuss this with other parents (you can see where "Teacher mentioned anime in class" can become "Teachers discussed porn in class"). Finally, given the third fact, when it comes to the school board, they may very well just decide to fire me instead of having to face legal troubles with the parents.

US teachers have to be REALLY careful. I know of several who have been fired for coming out as atheists, directly or indirectly(for example mentioning it off-hand in a facebook post). That includes teachers who don't touch on the subject in school, like science or math teachers.

Anything that might piss off even the most bigoted parents is anathema. On the other hand bad teachers who haven't pissed off parents are almost impossible to fire because of the teacher unions fighting for them tooth and nail(especially at university level, tenure is basically for life).

 

[Queen Michael]

To be honest, I have to say that it's perfectly okay to dislike something because of its fans. The logic is that you don't hate the thing itself, but the horrors it has wrought. Me, I wouldn't do it -- after all, I'm still proud to be a brony -- but I fully understand why some people do.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

I voted 'maybe'.

I suppose it all depends on the fans and their attitudes.

I know I stayed away from Final Fantasy for a long time because the fans annoyed the shit out of me, and I knew a lot of people that wouldn't shut up about it. I only got into years later, and I'm actually a little annoyed at the people that I knew who were fans of it because I missed out.

I've learned to just ignore the fans since the work should stand by itself, and not let the fans say otherwise when they hear an opinion they don't like or whatever.

Then again, Harry Potter fans have permanently ruined the series for me.

So there you go.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

The logic is that you don't hate the thing itself, but the horrors it has wrought.

I can agree with that. I used to watch MLP and enjoyed the first season but when the fandom exploded I just disengaged.

However.

I'm still huge into Pokemon and not even the most horrid fan fictions that community has unleashed has ever changed my appreciation for it. So we pick our battles when we choose to dive into fan created content. You'll find horrors in your quest for interesting or really well done content. I just didn't like MLP enough to stomach that.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Is this another pony thread? It always seems these threads are spurred by MLP.

Anyway, I think it's okay to not want anything to do with something because of the fans. I've never had that personal experience myself (when I don't want to watch/read/whatever something, it's because I'm not interested, not because of the fans), but I can understand the feeling of "Ugh. These guys won't shut up about such-and-such. Makes me sick."

As for judging the actual work based on the fans, that I don't think is okay.

I'd say no, since ultimately it's not the fans you're supposed to like, but the work itself. But if you rephrased that question to "Is it okay to avoid certain things because of their fans?", I'll be happy to agree.

Yeah, this is how I feel about it. I think MLP is a great show, even without the fandom. Saying the show is terrible only because you think the fandom is terrible is not a good way to judge the show. If you just don't like the show because you think it's corny, for little girls, don't like the animation style, or anything else that actually has to do with the show itself and not the fans, then that's a reason to judge the show poorly.
Does that makes any sense?