Poll: Poll:Unreasonable Demands

[Bat Vader]

I think a developer should listen to the opinions of the people who liked and disliked their game. That way it shows that they do value their community and the opinions of the community. I also think that if a demand is too unreasonable or deviates from what the developer is trying to do in the game than it should not be implemented.

 

[hyperdrachen]

I don't think that developers are beholden to the will of gamers, but at the same time I know that gamers have the right to criticize developers and their games, and that developers really should listen in many cases, or risk a huge lose in sales (this is a business after all).

I mean sure, developers are artists, and artists don't have to conform to standards set out by their fans, or society, and are actually supposed to push boundaries and be unique, but at the same time, game developers are basically in the business of wish fulfillment, and if they are only catering to the wishes of a minority they shouldn't be insulted by dwindling sales and a disregard of their product by a portion of the community.

I'd venture tuning out alot of these opinions would only do you good. Sonic fans(guilty as charged) are some of the most entitled and rabid fans out there, if you listen to the community buzz they've raged at every game since Sonic & Knuckles, or for the younger ones, Sonic Adventure 2. Yet they keep buying the games. The millions of shrieking fans all have in their mind what a "real sonic game" is, and it's all different, it's just insanity that the creative process does not need.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

As for those complaining about the lack of service to the homosexual community, I remind you that this game has no duty to stroke your ego. It is not the character being reduced to absurdity that has created a problem, it is that you have reduced yourself to absurdity.

It was ONE gay gamer. He was an idiot. Pretty much every gay gamer on the Escapist who has posted about this agrees - the guy was an idiot. Why does everyone now insist on saying that "all those gay gamers" when it was one, and only one, who started all this, and none of the rest of us (at least none who has ever replied to a post about it that I've seen) has ever agreed with his awful position.

None of the gay gamers on the Escapist think that the gay romance options in Dragon Age 2 were bad (again, that have posted on threads that I've read). Mostly because they were identical to the straight ones - the game treated the gay gamer exactly like the straight gamer, which is absolutely fair, and I for one approve.

Of course, I'm sure there were gay gamers who didn't like any of the romance options in DA2, but that's an issue with the writing or characterization, not appealing to the audience.

So please, can people stop yelling at us for one idiot who wrote a stupid internet petition that got a teeny tiny number of votes? Please? I'm so tired of being blamed for that moron's stupid, uninformed reaction.

tl;dr: one gay idiot =/= the gay gaming community

OT: The artist should be free to make whatever, and people should stop whining about it. Particularly when the artist makes very fair and open decisions. I wish more game designers would do the same.

 

[FrostyChick]

Besides, as far as pandering goes, most games are still weak sauce. You want to pander to me? Then make a game where I engage in intelligent philosophical debate with a harem of enthusiastically naked lesbians while flying a spaceship.

That game has to be made...

OT:Hit the nail on the head there. It's Bioware's game. I'm not a game designer[footnote]Yet...[/footnote], I don't get to control every aspect of the game's story/gameplay.
But then again. I'm one of the mutant freaks that thought DA2 was a good game.
I wasn't offended by the romance options in game... Well maybe the black haired elf chick in the blooming rose. That was just.

Spoiler

 

[Zay-el]

Pandering is the absolute worst thing a developer can fall into. Let's be perfectly honest here for a moment: fans are dumb(not all of them, obviously, but a handy number). They'll always have their own vision of what would be nice, but no matter what a developer does they can never, EVER appeal to everyone at the same time. Pandering continuously to a select number only leaves the developer(excuse the stealing here) as artistically bankrupt as a vending machine. If they do nothing other than licking our feet, we won't ever get new and innovative games.

 

[hyperdrachen]

As for those complaining about the lack of service to the homosexual community, I remind you that this game has no duty to stroke your ego. It is not the character being reduced to absurdity that has created a problem, it is that you have reduced yourself to absurdity.

It was ONE gay gamer. He was an idiot. Pretty much every gay gamer on the Escapist who has posted about this agrees - the guy was an idiot. Why does everyone now insist on saying that "all those gay gamers" when it was one, and only one, who started all this, and none of the rest of us (at least none who has ever replied to a post about it that I've seen) has ever agreed with his awful position.

None of the gay gamers on the Escapist think that the gay romance options in Dragon Age 2 were bad (again, that have posted on threads that I've read). Mostly because they were identical to the straight ones - the game treated the gay gamer exactly like the straight gamer, which is absolutely fair, and I for one approve.

Of course, I'm sure there were gay gamers who didn't like any of the romance options in DA2, but that's an issue with the writing or characterization, not appealing to the audience.

So please, can people stop yelling at us for one idiot who wrote a stupid internet petition that got a teeny tiny number of votes? Please? I'm so tired of being blamed for that moron's stupid, uninformed reaction.

tl;dr: one gay idiot =/= the gay gaming community

OT: The artist should be free to make whatever, and people should stop whining about it. Particularly when the artist makes very fair and open decisions. I wish more game designers would do the same.

I'm addressing those that took issue, why would you apply that to gay gamers who did not. My opinion applies to anyone who holds these ideas, voiced or otherwise. I did not imply that all homosexuals or heterosexuals got their pants in a twist over this game. Note I said "as for those complaining about a lack of service to the homosexual community", instead of "ATTN:All Gays"

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Snip

Besides, as far as pandering goes, most games are still weak sauce. You want to pander to me? Then make a game where I engage in intelligent philosophical debate with a harem of enthusiastically naked lesbians while flying a spaceship.

Fuck, I'd play that and I'm not even attracted to lesbians.

It's a little bit insane to suggest that a developer should make a game solely catered to MY needs or wants, but if you generally suggest that developers should cater to their audience, the answer is yes. That's how industries work. Justin Beiber's target audience is 13-year-old girls, so he sings irritatingly catchy pop songs with stupidly shallow and romantic lyrics. (wouldn't have brought him up at all if my favourite webcomic artist wasn't suffering through 30 days of listening to nothing but him. Good luck, Thunt!)

With regards to DA2, I think both complaints are equally ridiculous. I don't play DA2 for sex. There are plenty of online flash games I could play for sex if I wanted to. I play DA2 for the reason I play most Bioware games; an excellent standard of storytelling and writing (if a bit lackluster in combat, but I'll happily trade that). If the developers wanted to make it so that every character in the game wanted to fuck me, that's their decision. If every character wanted to fuck everyone else but me, that's also their decision. I wouldn't really side with either of those, but the point is sex is NOT the obligation. Sex is a sidebar, and Bioware are perfectly entitled to design all of their additions to the Action/RPG formula (*shudder* I hate saying that phrase) however the hell they see fit. I came for the story and the world. They gave me what I paid for.

Seriously, that's like going to someone's house for a delicious Italian dinner and claiming that the music they play in their living room isn't your favourite genre. It's their fucking house. They promised you dinner, you got dinner. Leave their music alone.

^^This.

The decisions about relationships seemed to stem from neither the straight or gay community as a whole, but people feeling frustrated that they couldn't romance so-and-so without playing as a different gender, and because for each gender, you only had one homosexual option (which has nothing to do with the homosexual community as a whole, but all players who choose to play a gay character, regardless of the player's RL sexuality.)

So, BioWare made is so your given character could romance any of the 4 options. Honestly, I found this to be a nice change to DA:O's setup. (Playing a male character takes me out of the immersion for role-playing. Not having to play as one, or get a mod to open up a romance with a straight female character is nice.)


I felt Anders' promiscuity added to his character, rather than detracted from it.

Spoiler: Some minor character spoilers from Origins, Awakenings, and 2

In Awakenings, Anders makes his interest in women perfectly clear, but I think making him Bisexual adds some death. In the Circle, mages aren't given any freedom. In DA2, Anders mentions how you could never let yourself fall in love because it would give the Templars one more hold on you. At one point, he even mentions others have been brutally raped by Templars.

In Origins, Wynne reveals she had a son, and he was taken away from her immediately after birth. Liasons between mages were closely watched, and largely forbidden.

So, given Anders' stance on mages, it seems likely that he would engage in as much sex as he could, if for no other reason than as a "fuck you" to the Templars. It's how he learned to deal with things.

If you romance Anders in the second act, you learn that he's been dreaming of you every night for three years. This isn't because "oh look, I'm a gay stereotype", but because between the Circle and fearing to let others close to him after he took in Justice, he's found a stalwart companion that he has a great deal of trust and respect in that is still willing to get close to him. From his time in the Circle, it seems the only way he's learned to cope with that is through sex.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I don't think that developers are beholden to the will of gamers, but at the same time I know that gamers have the right to criticize developers and their games, and that developers really should listen in many cases, or risk a huge lose in sales (this is a business after all).

I mean sure, developers are artists, and artists don't have to conform to standards set out by their fans, or society, and are actually supposed to push boundaries and be unique, but at the same time, game developers are basically in the business of wish fulfillment, and if they are only catering to the wishes of a minority they shouldn't be insulted by dwindling sales and a disregard of their product by a portion of the community.

I'd venture tuning out alot of these opinions would only do you good. Sonic fans(guilty as charged) are some of the most entitled and rabid fans out there, if you listen to the community buzz they've raged at every game since Sonic & Knuckles, or for the younger ones, Sonic Adventure 2. Yet they keep buying the games. The millions of shrieking fans all have in their mind what a "real sonic game" is, and it's all different, it's just insanity that the creative process does not need.

I've always thought that Sonic has been crap in recent years because Sonic team refuses to listen to their fans. Instead of listening to what people want they've been trying to guess at what they want, which has resulted in an assload of supporting characters and an attempt at more dark/moody characters, all of which absolutely NO ONE has ever wanted.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I'm addressing those that took issue, why would you apply that to gay gamers who did not. My opinion applies to anyone who holds these ideas, voiced or otherwise. I did not imply that all homosexuals or heterosexuals got their pants in a twist over this game. Note I said "as for those complaining about a lack of service to the homosexual community", instead of "ATTN:All Gays"

What I'm saying is that there aren't "those", there is only "him". I have yet to see anyone at all agree with that guy.

Do you realize how rare that is? This is the internet, and no one agreed with that guy even to troll. That is how unpopular his opinion was. Mostly because it was the same lack of information that led to the whole Fox News vs Mass Effect 1 stupidity.

I mostly was objecting to your use of the plural. If someone who actually agrees with the guy wants to prove me wrong, please do, but, like I said, I've seen no one agree with this guy at all.

 

[joebthegreat]

Sonic fans don't know what they want... so Sonic Team has no idea what to give them.

Sonic 3 "Sonic & Knuckles" already exists, if they just want that then just have them play that.

Any advance in ANY direction and the community calls it "ruined".

Unreasonable demands are unreasonable, and Sonic fans fit into that. That doesn't mean developers shouldn't cater to their audiences, it simply means that developers don't need to bend over backwards for the vocal 1% of the community that never shuts up.

 

[hyperdrachen]

I'm addressing those that took issue, why would you apply that to gay gamers who did not. My opinion applies to anyone who holds these ideas, voiced or otherwise. I did not imply that all homosexuals or heterosexuals got their pants in a twist over this game. Note I said "as for those complaining about a lack of service to the homosexual community", instead of "ATTN:All Gays"

What I'm saying is that there aren't "those", there is only "him". I have yet to see anyone at all agree with that guy.

Do you realize how rare that is? This is the internet, and no one agreed with that guy even to troll. That is how unpopular his opinion was. Mostly because it was the same lack of information that led to the whole Fox News vs Mass Effect 1 stupidity.

I mostly was objecting to your use of the plural. If someone who actually agrees with the guy wants to prove me wrong, please do, but, like I said, I've seen no one agree with this guy at all.

The fact that absolutely no one agreed with him on the internets is indeed remarkable. But he is scarcely the first person to cartoonify himself in such a way, I hope anyone who shares his thoughts quietly or otherwise, or his method of thought applied to their own trait (gender, race, etc), rethinks their ego. If you really want to mince words "those" refers to all members of a set, in this case the set of "gay gamers who feel personally attacked by the writing in DA2". If that set genuinely only contains one member, then "those" refers to only him. My thoughts on the reaction remain the same, and apply to him, and anyone past present or future that shares his sentiment.

 

[The Grim Ace]

The artist should make their art for the art's own sake. What we the consumers buy is on us and so long as it functions (in the case of interactive art) correctly we have no reason to expect the artist's vision to correspond to our exact want.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

If you really want to mince words "those" refers to all members of a set, in this case the set of "gay gamers who feel personally attacked by the writing in DA2". If that set genuinely only contains one member, then "those" refers to only him. My thoughts on the reaction remain the same, and apply to him, and anyone past present or future that shares his sentiment.

Ah. Yes, okay. Your set/sub-set logic has convinced me. Objection retracted. ^^

 

[DementedSheep]

Yes and no people should be able to voice their opinion. Do I expect a game to pander to me personally? of course not. I?m not the only person in the world but I will still say what I don't like and if somthing doesn?t match my taste I?m not going to buy it tho other people are certainly able to enjoy it. We are paying for these things so a certain level of quality and amount of content is expected. Still there is a difference between constructive criticism and telling devs the sort of things you would like to see or were not happy with and acting like an entitled child and making demands. You realy don't have the right to demand things in a leisure item you bought of your own free will. In the end you vote with your $. People demanding refunds because they didn?t like something (not because it?s actually broken and doesn?t work as advertised) annoy me. You choose to buy the game willingly; so long as you were not lied to it?s your problem. You should have done your research properly.

Many artist ask for feedback. Sure you shouldn?t compromise your overall vision to pander but often it can be hard to see the flaws in your own work or to pick up on which bits are detracting from it. Especially when trying to do something you haven?t done before. Sometimes you just can?t do everything you want to and feedback can help you decide which parts need to be kept and witch parts do not. How often do you see games that failed because they tried to do too much at once? Feedback can give you ideas on how to improve something, not just in the eyes of the fans but to you as well. When you are designing something or writing a story you should not always have to be thinking about everything in a deliberately political way or trying to give people what you think they expect. It feels like to many games these days just go through a check list of things they need to appeal to different groups however the reality is games need to make a profit. If someone doesn?t like something they are not going to buy it nor should you expect them too. Sometimes you just have to except that what you might want to do is just not working.

However trying to pander to everyone usually seems to mean you end up with something that?s at best just mediocre for most people and you will still have complaints. You will never please everyone. Allot of people just look for ways to be offended. If you over analyse anything you will probably find something that could be classed as offensive. One of the more ridicules ones I saw awhile again was that in Firefly they were ?metaphorically raping the ship? and it was misogynistic because they gave the ship a feminine name and refer to it as a she. So yeah, you can find offense in everything. Most of the time its only a very vocal but small group doing most of the complaining.

As for the example you used? IMO both groups need to take their heads out of their asses.

 

[Probablynot.]

I hope i don't offend anyone buy saying this, but aren't RPGs like dragon age just one big pat on the back anyway?