Poll: Popular opinion: Swordplay

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Jonluw

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May 23, 2010
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rollerfox88 said:
A notched sword is the next best thing to useless - if you try to cut with it, the notch catches and the sword is pulled out of your grip, leaving you to be sliced open and die.

Thats why best practice is block with the flat (or, ideally, dodge or use a shield), and if thats not possible, block with the edge and damage your sword.
If this is indeed the case, I want to know how you're supposed to hold the sword while blocking.
Never mind the fact that your sword is likely to break in half if you strike its flat. By blocking with the flat in any manner I can imagine, you're turning your sword into a leverage arm with the pivot point being your wrist.

When blocking, you would typically let the swords clash as far down on your edge as possible, meaning that any resulting notches are unlikely to affect slicing performance as the active part of the sword is closer to the tip.
 

IamQ

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If I remember correctly, most western Knights swords aren't made for direct blocking. If you're talking about that, I think the swords that the Samurai used would be more useful. Since the Samurai had no shields, they had to entirely rely on their swords. Katanas for instance, to use a popular example, can take quite the beating, despite being so sharp. There are videos of Katanas being shot with bullets, and not breaking, merely slicing the bullets in half.
 

Zen Toombs

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Argh! I was thinking edge, I wanted to choose edge, and then I overthought it. :(

Oh well, I don't have the most experience with swordplay. I've only done a bit of fencing (fun fact, the ones we used were round) and a little bit else, but I've never fought with an actual non-rapier sword regardless of bluntedness.
 

Burst6

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IamQ said:
If I remember correctly, most western Knights swords aren't made for direct blocking. If you're talking about that, I think the swords that the Samurai used would be more useful. Since the Samurai had no shields, they had to entirely rely on their swords. Katanas for instance, to use a popular example, can take quite the beating, despite being so sharp. There are videos of Katanas being shot with bullets, and not breaking, merely slicing the bullets in half.
Katanas were made to be flexible and they were generally shorter than longswords, making them harder to break.

But from what i was taught by my martial arts teacher, samurai trained to parry every attack, not block it. There's a massive difference between a parry and a block. A proper parry won't break your sword, but a block can.
 

Ralen-Sharr

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Feb 12, 2010
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I've always been of the understanding that blocking with the flat of the blade can cause the blade to break, since it's hardened steel, and it getting hit that way, especially if it's multiple times can cause the blade to simply snap. Always made sense to me, and for the whole ruining the edge idea - most swords ended up as more of an edged club than a cutting tool. A sharp blade would not stay sharp very long, especially against any kind of metallic armor.
 

dragonswarrior

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Feb 13, 2012
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You are supposed to block with the base of your blade (base? I dunno what it's called. Closer to the hand part. Whatever) and slash/cut with a part (again forget the name) thats closer to the tip but not the tip. You can find the perfect slashing part of a blade by banging it against something and watching it vibrate, the part that stays still while the rest wiggles is the part youre supposed to cut with.

Also, a PROPERLY made blade is an incredibly tough piece of work. It is designed to cut through steel armor for five hours and still be effective at the end of it.

Don't believe me? Check out these videos of some guys testing the blades of a master smith who goes by the title "Badger."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQG2KhiB-YA&list=FLBhEJtlk6ICPEQTfFrHNOcg&index=7&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFZKLdQfDvo&list=FLBhEJtlk6ICPEQTfFrHNOcg&index=6&feature=plpp_video

Edit: I need to apologize. This is the first forum I have ever been in and I am still very new to things and have not taken the time yet to learn various tricks and intricacies and whatever. So it's just the links. I don't know how to put the actual video on here or how to hide with a spoiler warning thing or any of that other fancy (at least to me) jazz.
 

Jonluw

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May 23, 2010
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rollerfox88 said:
Jonluw said:
rollerfox88 said:
A notched sword is the next best thing to useless - if you try to cut with it, the notch catches and the sword is pulled out of your grip, leaving you to be sliced open and die.

Thats why best practice is block with the flat (or, ideally, dodge or use a shield), and if thats not possible, block with the edge and damage your sword.
If this is indeed the case, I want to know how you're supposed to hold the sword while blocking.
Never mind the fact that your sword is likely to break in half if you strike its flat. By blocking with the flat in any manner I can imagine, you're turning your sword into a leverage arm with the pivot point being your wrist.

When blocking, you would typically let the swords clash as far down on your edge as possible, meaning that any resulting notches are unlikely to affect slicing performance as the active part of the sword is closer to the tip.
A flat-on-edge block is the absolute perfect block you can achieve, but you wouldnt try a flat edge block if your position meant you had to hold your wrist angled to achieve it. Thats why its best practice, not a must-do.
Explain how you're supposed to hold the sword, please.

Imagine striking at the flat of that sword. The force of the strike working straight forward, through the screen.

The wielder's wrist is going to pivot as the sword makes its way clockwise (from the pov of the wielder) through the screen, and it would take very little effort. I can see no practical way in which you could hold the sword to block with the flat in which this leverage&pivot effect does not come into work.
Also, if a swordsman were fighting with a sword and no shield, he could use his off-hand to reinforce the blade at the point of blocking (much less risky with mail- or plate-backed gauntlets.
This is the one explanation for how you'd block with the flat I'm willing to buy. It seems it might be slightly time consuming and complicated to perform effectively though.
Also also, this is where a properly made sword is essential - a cheap blade is made by pouring uniform metal into a mould and then shaping it. As its all one grade of metal, its not particularly flexible, meaning you kinda have to edge-block. A properly made sword, however, would be prohibitively expensive for most swordsmen, but would have a softer, more flexible core flux-welded onto an outer coating of a harder, more brittle metal. This would allow the edge to hold if you had to block with edge, but allow the sword to bend enough to survive blocking with the flat.
This, I'm not buying however. I know you can make fairly flexible swords by using the right kind of metal (although from what I hear, pattern welding and the whole "soft core, brittle edge" thing is mostly obsolete these days). I am not convinced even these swords will take a full-on blow towards their flat.
I've personally broken a sword (Blunt edge training sword, not a decorative replica. Good flexibility) in twain, striking with the edge. It may have been due to a flaw in that particular sword (although I doubt it, seeing how I'd already used it for a while), but the amount of metal that was broken through was still impressive. It would certainly imply that 0.5 cm of metal, no matter how fancy, would have a hard time withstanding a proper strike.
 

kickyourass

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With Western swords, it's best to use either a shield or a smaller secondary weapon like a dagger, but since that's not an option use the edge, near the base of the blade. It's usually wider, being closer to your hand(s) will give you more leverage to actually push back the blow, and you don't have to worry about notches and chips on the stabby-slashy end (Though a few of those might actually help you since they won't cut as cleanly, making it easier for them to bleed to death).
 

craftomega

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May 4, 2011
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When blocking with the flat you are in reality rarly blocking.

You are in fact deflecting a blow.

To truly "Block" with the flat of a sword you almost always need to support it using your shoulder or forarm.

One reason for Deflecting with the flat is that it is essencially a parry and you are now free to attack while your opponent has commited himself.


Acadmy Of European Swordmanship. -Savant
http://swordsmanship.ca/
 

CultistRat

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Sep 18, 2009
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Most of my experience with swords is of the two-handed longsword variety, and with those I was taught to defend with the crux of the blade and the guard against the weak(upper half or so) of their blade so it takes less force to stop the blow.
 

Jonluw

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rollerfox88 said:
Jonluw said:
First, a flat-edge block would be ideal blocking against a top-down strike I would think. No wrist-twisting involved.

Second, you would not hold that sword, as the original post asked for advice on using a European longsword, not a fantasy scimitar/backsabre.
I used that image because it was the only decent image I could find of an arm holding a sword. I assume the shape of the sword doesn't really interfere with the physics of it. The leverage effect is still the same.
Third, yes, reinforcing the blade with your hand is slightly more time consuming than not...thats why its an advanced technique.

And fourth, yes, that method of forging a sword is obsolete these days...but was not when people used European longswords. Nowadays we have ways of making metals that are intrinsically more able to keep an edge whilst retaining flexibility, such as steel reinforced with Kevlar (tm). However, back when my family were still smithing for a living, thats how it was done.
And as I said, I still don't buy that swords can or could take that much punishment.

However, I think debating this further today is futile, since Yahtzee broke the site by posting this week's zp. I keep getting disconnected from the escapist.
I'm not looking forward to try to post this...
 

jyork89

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Jun 29, 2010
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I'm gonna say with the edge. Even a chipped sword can easily kill. Besides, swords are made to take punishment on their edges. What do you think hitting armor does to them? Even though they would aim for soft points under arms and the neck the sword would often strike armor.

Though my guess is sword play is a lot different than any actual battles. Real battles would have been more like what you would expect now with he who swings (or in contemporary times fires) first strikes down the opponent. Especially in the cases of large two handed swords like Zweihanders and Claymores. Against a sword like that your best bet would be avoiding the guy wielding it altogether and if worse comes to worse, dodging it.
 

Alexias_Sandar

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Nov 8, 2010
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Hoenstly? It's going to depend on the situation. Some parries suit a flat being used to redirect while many blocks are more edge to edge. When possible? Better to not be there in the first place, keeping your blade free...or use a shield, or both. Not that a shield is in any way a passive tool...it's an active weapon and defensive tool in its own right, too. Will edge blocking damage your blade? Sure. But...well. Being alive is more important than a little more weapon maintenance, and eventual replacement. Weapons are meant to be used. They aren't meant to hang on a wall in perfect condition.
 

Alexias_Sandar

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Nov 8, 2010
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Honestly, it's going to depend on the situation. Some parries are flat redirections, others are direct edge blocks or the like. Both have a use under the right circumstances. It's up to you, the wielder, to know which is right for now. Or not, and...suffer the consequences. Often, a shield or dodging are better choices, but not always. However...edge damage...happens. Weapons are meant to be used, and replaced eventually. Extra sword maintenance is no reason to ignore practical combat maneuvers. If you're dead? You aren't going to get the chance to skimp in maintenance.

Argh...apparently, what I thought was lost...wasn't. Oops.
 

ElPatron

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Jul 18, 2011
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rollerfox88 said:
Second, you would not hold that sword, as the original post asked for advice on using a European longsword, not a fantasy scimitar/backsabre.
What difference does the kind of sword make? The point was the position of the wrist.

Okay, I tried holding my hands like if I was about to block a strike from above, and the position of the wrist is really awkward. I would probably hit myself with my own sword.
 

The Funslinger

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Sep 12, 2010
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Soviet Heavy said:
With the edge. A chipped blade lasts longer than a broken one.
The flat of the blade! You're not going to break the sword that way, and you shouldn't ruin the edge.
 

Wyes

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Aug 1, 2009
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So I think I wasn't quite careful enough with my terminology, so I'll define some terms;
Blocking - pretty much what you think it is, this is when you STOP a blow (be it with a blade or a shield)
Parrying - parrying is bit of a broader term, which some feel includes blocking, but it also includes things like deflecting a blow
Deflecting - pretty self explanatory, redirecting a blow without taking the full force of the attack

Now, most styles have a mix of blocking and deflecting, but to be clear, most 'straight edge' styles make use of both blocking AND deflecting, though the focus is usually on deflecting.

Also, when I said which do you block/parry with, I meant primarily, because yes, there will usually be a bit of a mix.

No matter the style, you will never block with the flat (without otherwise bracing it, against a hand or arm), because it simply does not work, you will be blasted through (though it is very unlikely that the sword will break). If you are stopping a blow, you will always need to use the edge. As others have mentioned, this is always done at the base of the blade, or the 'forte'. Many blades are in fact not sharp here at all.

As for deflecting, deflecting can be done with the flat, but it is both easier and stronger to deflect with the edge, making it a much more viable technique. Primarily (at least in the styles I am familiar with, English, German and Italian styles), edge-to-edge is the only way to go, and that includes systems with an object in the offhand (a buckler, shield or dagger).

There are definitely styles that primarily use the flat though, such as sabre styles and other non-straight edge blade styles (because these blades are typically both shorter and lighter), which is why I specified straight edge swords in the OP.

As for a few things I've been reading along the way:

A few people have said you should be avoiding rather than blocking or deflecting; the only reliable way to avoid a blow is to stay out of distance, and while it is possible to do things such as wait for someone to swing and miss and then come in to attack, it is very difficult to do as your timing must be absolutely perfect, there is no room for error, and it will not work against most competent swordsmen (because they'll see it coming and prepare accordingly). This is because it is very easy to change the direction of a blow when its in motion, by simply rotating the wrist. And despite what some people think, sword play is VERY quick, especially two handed longsword styles (I've watched some longsword bouts where it is almost impossible to track the blows with your eyes). What this means is that when you come in close to attack them (as you must, because your sword is only so long), you need to either make sure you're already giving them an attack to deal with, or lying in a guard that will stop or deflect any incoming blows.

Some others have said that western swords were designed with shields in mind; this is definitely true of earlier swords (particularly viking swords, because they have tiny quillions which fit behind a round shield quite nicely), however later on many swords were either being used by themselves one handed (particularly basket hilted backswords) or being used two-handed (longswords), and so techniques for effective parrying were developed.

A couple of people have mentioned thrusting; thrusting attacks are very powerful, and very easy to turn aside (you can seriously palm aside a thrust). In my experience, one must never use a thrust (especially as an opening attack) unless they really know what they're doing, and even then there are many defenses against thrusts. Some people argue that a thrusting weapon like a rapier, with its superior length, will defeat cut-thrust swords, and this is definitely not the case (if both swordsmen are competent, it's really about even).

Other people don't think you can't block a blow against a stronger opponent, and being one of the smaller and weaker guys in my class, I can promise you this is not the case, a good strong block will still stop them clean.

I should note that at my historical fencing school, all of the techniques we learn come from historical manuals.


Also somebody talked about Katanas; you should never, ever block directly with a Katana, they are not designed for it, you should only defect with the back of the blade (which is reasonably thick).

EDIT: I should also note that I do actually use these techniques in full-contact steel-on-steel bouting, and they do work (they just work better for the people who've been there longer =P)