Poll: Realistic Sword Fighting Game, Possible?

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Eclectic Dreck

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NeutralDrow said:
Flying-Emu said:
Also the vast advantage that people who have taken fencing lessons hold might be problematic.
Bah, just give them the wrong type of sword. Make all those kendoka use rapiers, and the foil/epee fencers use zweihanders. And the sabre fencers...well, that's when you pull out the realistic polearm combat!
To be fair, if you wanted to have a realistic sword fighting game, the weapons would have to be of the same era and setting. The rapier was the result of firearms making personal armor silly (but still unreliable enough to warrant carrying a sword). The Katana was the result of never changing the sword concept for a few hundred years. The Sabre was the logical conclusion to the scimitar line, growing lighther and quicker as effective personal armor became nothing but a memory. Sure, one might fight a duel with small sword against an opponent armed with a Basket Hilt claymore - both weapons were products of the same era. The reason is fairly simple - the art with which a weapon is employed is designed around combatting foes armed with similar weapons. To employ a court sword against a sabre is folly as your move set is designed to deliver and defend against the thrust whereas the sabre is designed primarly to deliver and efend against the cut. And how precisely does one really defend with an object as cumbersome as a pole-arm? It seems to me that such a weapon relies on personal armor and a consistant attack more than anything for safety as the weapon could not readily be translated from attack to defense. Even the rapier (significantly lighter and smaller) required an additional implement for defese (be it buckler, cloak or dagger).
 

NeutralDrow

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Eclectic Dreck said:
NeutralDrow said:
Flying-Emu said:
Also the vast advantage that people who have taken fencing lessons hold might be problematic.
Bah, just give them the wrong type of sword. Make all those kendoka use rapiers, and the foil/epee fencers use zweihanders. And the sabre fencers...well, that's when you pull out the realistic polearm combat!
snip
That's true, you can simply subvert the original point by noting that fencing training would do absolutely nothing for people in a realistic game. I simply figured that would be far less funny. Thanks a lot.

And how precisely does one really defend with an object as cumbersome as a pole-arm? It seems to me that such a weapon relies on personal armor and a consistant attack more than anything for safety as the weapon could not readily be translated from attack to defense. Even the rapier (significantly lighter and smaller) required an additional implement for defese (be it buckler, cloak or dagger).
Depends on the polearm in question. Spears, for example, are incredibly versatile weapons. Not only can they be used in a large number of ways in an offensive manner (set against charge, thrust, thrown, entangling, and even swung), but they effectively combine the defensive capabilities of a staff with the "active defense" capability afforded by a great reach. Naginatas are similarly capable, in addition to being great from horseback.

Try those with a pike, however, and you deserve whatever happens. There's a reason pikemen carried short swords and daggers.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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NeutralDrow said:
Eclectic Dreck said:
NeutralDrow said:
Flying-Emu said:
Also the vast advantage that people who have taken fencing lessons hold might be problematic.
Bah, just give them the wrong type of sword. Make all those kendoka use rapiers, and the foil/epee fencers use zweihanders. And the sabre fencers...well, that's when you pull out the realistic polearm combat!
snip
That's true, you can simply subvert the original point by noting that fencing training would do absolutely nothing for people in a realistic game. I simply figured that would be far less funny. Thanks a lot.

And how precisely does one really defend with an object as cumbersome as a pole-arm? It seems to me that such a weapon relies on personal armor and a consistant attack more than anything for safety as the weapon could not readily be translated from attack to defense. Even the rapier (significantly lighter and smaller) required an additional implement for defese (be it buckler, cloak or dagger).
Depends on the polearm in question. Spears, for example, are incredibly versatile weapons. Not only can they be used in a large number of ways in an offensive manner (set against charge, thrust, thrown, entangling, and even swung), but they effectively combine the defensive capabilities of a staff with the "active defense" capability afforded by a great reach. Naginatas are similarly capable, in addition to being great from horseback.

Try those with a pike, however, and you deserve whatever happens. There's a reason pikemen carried short swords and daggers.
While I don't discount that one can defend with a spear or a halberd or the like, I simply don't think that one can transition from attack to defense quickly enough to be effective in true close combat. I suspect this is why one sees spearmen often making use of a shield or other forms of personal armor for defense. On the other side of the coin, a small sword (or a foil or epee) can defend and attack in the same motion and is sufficiently light to perform the actions seperately with amazing speed (though the single-tempo would still be preferred in a real duel because a double time approach could certainly lead to a stabbing).

It is this very flexibility that lead to the sword being called the "Queen of weapons", and it is also the very reason swords were usaually the last option in a fight. One would certainly be better served with a spear than a sword from the outset because one simply cannot discount the utility of a longer ranged attack.
 

NeutralDrow

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Eclectic Dreck said:
NeutralDrow said:
Eclectic Dreck said:
NeutralDrow said:
Flying-Emu said:
Also the vast advantage that people who have taken fencing lessons hold might be problematic.
Bah, just give them the wrong type of sword. Make all those kendoka use rapiers, and the foil/epee fencers use zweihanders. And the sabre fencers...well, that's when you pull out the realistic polearm combat!
snip
That's true, you can simply subvert the original point by noting that fencing training would do absolutely nothing for people in a realistic game. I simply figured that would be far less funny. Thanks a lot.

And how precisely does one really defend with an object as cumbersome as a pole-arm? It seems to me that such a weapon relies on personal armor and a consistant attack more than anything for safety as the weapon could not readily be translated from attack to defense. Even the rapier (significantly lighter and smaller) required an additional implement for defese (be it buckler, cloak or dagger).
Depends on the polearm in question. Spears, for example, are incredibly versatile weapons. Not only can they be used in a large number of ways in an offensive manner (set against charge, thrust, thrown, entangling, and even swung), but they effectively combine the defensive capabilities of a staff with the "active defense" capability afforded by a great reach. Naginatas are similarly capable, in addition to being great from horseback.

Try those with a pike, however, and you deserve whatever happens. There's a reason pikemen carried short swords and daggers.
While I don't discount that one can defend with a spear or a halberd or the like, I simply don't think that one can transition from attack to defense quickly enough to be effective in true close combat.
If you have to actually transition from attack to defense, I'm fairly sure you're doing it wrong...but I think I see your point. Given how effective staves are in close combat, however, I'm afraid I disagree.

I suspect this is why one sees spearmen often making use of a shield or other forms of personal armor for defense.
That might also be because they're in formation. Armies usually like having their soldiers armored.

On the other side of the coin, a small sword (or a foil or epee) can defend and attack in the same motion and is sufficiently light to perform the actions seperately with amazing speed (though the single-tempo would still be preferred in a real duel because a double time approach could certainly lead to a stabbing).
They're also fairly easy to defend against if you're properly trained and carrying anything...or even if you're not. It's a lot harder to grab a longsword (or even a true rapier) with your bare hands than a smallsword.

It is this very flexibility that lead to the sword being called the "Queen of weapons", and it is also the very reason swords were usually the last option in a fight. One would certainly be better served with a spear than a sword from the outset because one simply cannot discount the utility of a longer ranged attack.
That also depends, again, on the type of sword. A lot of the sword's popularity is due to its status as a prestige weapon.
 

The Madman

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It's been said and I'll say it again: Mount & Blade

It's far from perfectly realistic, but it's as close as you're likely to get while still being ridiculously fun. It's not fencing nor does it incorporate various fighting styles, but the combat is fast paced and takes into account everything you mention in the initial post. For example even the most powerful characters wearing the grandest armor atop the most glorious horses can be killed in a single blow if they're stupid enough to charge into a lance or halberd. The weapons length, the swing of the blade, the strength of the impact, all taken into account with every blow. This means that even a one on one duel can be intense especially against the most skilled foes as it becomes a game of waiting for an opening while trading hits. It only takes one after all... usually. Obviously a peasant with a club ain't gonna do crap against a fully armored knight, that knight is going to be shrugging off the blows and slaughtering the peasants. But in a fair match, every hit counts.

Oh, and the mounted combat is the best ever put into a game. It even takes into account the speed of your horses charge during combat, so swinging even a crappy staff at full charging speed becomes a skull-crushing one hit kill blow. Meanwhile weapons designed for use from horseback become Thor's-Hammer, shattering shields with one blow and absolutely destroying the poor sod behind it. That is unless their horse is shot out from under them, then those lances and such are pretty useless in the face of, well, a sword to the face.

If it sounds like I'm giving a fanboy squeal about the game it's because I really am. The game is amazing and doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves.


It may not be everything you want, but it's as close as you're likely to get until you go out there and make this dream game of yours yourself. I'd try it! Till then though I'll be playing Mount & Blade.
 

lostclause

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ThreeWords said:
I can only do foil, cos no one wants to do sabre or epee where I come from :(

I take it you fence much?
Three times a week. A couple of easy school ones and a harder one on the weekend. Sadly I've suspended them all in the face of exams but I'll be back soon.
Edit: Quote fixed.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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NeutralDrow said:
If you have to actually transition from attack to defense, I'm fairly sure you're doing it wrong...but I think I see your point. Given how effective staves are in close combat, however, I'm afraid I disagree.

I suspect this is why one sees spearmen often making use of a shield or other forms of personal armor for defense.
That might also be because they're in formation. Armies usually like having their soldiers armored.

On the other side of the coin, a small sword (or a foil or epee) can defend and attack in the same motion and is sufficiently light to perform the actions seperately with amazing speed (though the single-tempo would still be preferred in a real duel because a double time approach could certainly lead to a stabbing).
They're also fairly easy to defend against if you're properly trained and carrying anything...or even if you're not. It's a lot harder to grab a longsword (or even a true rapier) with your bare hands than a smallsword.

It is this very flexibility that lead to the sword being called the "Queen of weapons", and it is also the very reason swords were usually the last option in a fight. One would certainly be better served with a spear than a sword from the outset because one simply cannot discount the utility of a longer ranged attack.
That also depends, again, on the type of sword. A lot of the sword's popularity is due to its status as a prestige weapon.
The reason for a transition is simple. While the blunt portin of a spear or halberd may indeed hurt an unarmored or lightly armored foe, all such weapons are designed primarly around a single point of offense. In the case of a spear, one is on the offensive so long as the spear point is facing the opponent, but if one wishes to defend against a thrust from a similar weapon they must move their point from the target at least to a degree and then sweep the weapon in some direction or another to deflect the blow. In the case of a weapon like a halberd, one would be required to make an even more significant transition from attack to defense as more force is required to stop a chop or a cut than a thrust (in the case of thrust often the key is simply using leverage to slightly redirect momentum whereas with a cut or chop you are required to halt the momentum of a fairly massive implement in this case). Simply as a result of being a long and relatively heavy weapon, the transition is going to naturally be more difficult than with a smaller, lighter weapon. As a result, such weapons are, as I said best used with a strong attack, relying on a formation and personal armor to provide defense.

And while one may beieve that a small sword or similar weapon is easy to defend against, I suspect you'd think otherwise if you picked up fencing as a hobby! The thrust is actually significantly more difficult to defend against than a cut simply because you must intercept a blade in motion and redirect it. With a cut, one simply needs to intercept. If one looks at sport fencing as an example, you will find that though there are 10 parry positions, only four of them are commonly needed (that is, quatre, sixte, septime, and octave - with those four parries one can generally deflect any attack to the front, even if they aren't always the most efficent). In sabre, one can potentially use all 10 foil parries along with several only used in sabre, but one generally only needs three of them (not being a sabre fencer I cannot name the positions). And keep in mind that were the weapons live, a mere half-kilogram of force at the tip is all that it takes to drive the weapon through your body. Though the epee and small sword were not designed to be used as cutting weapons, both came complete with razor edges for a portion of the length to ensure the weapon would be extremely dangerous to grab, not to mention hold on to. Just as important, were your opponent unarmed then you have such an extreme advantage in combat that there would have to be an extreme disparity in your armed skill versus your opponents unarmed skill for them to have any real hope of escaping without significant injury. Without a real option for defense the only thing someone could do is displace and hope to grapple, but the fact of the matter is a fencer can throw an attack far more quickly than one can evade. Yes, displacements to occur with varying degrees of success but often this was as a result of a greater strategy that lead to the attacker throwing their attack along an expected line - something that would be impossible to force were you unarmed.

Of course, the assumption that it may be easier to defend against a small word than a rapier is also a bit of a misconception. While relatively light compared to previous weapons, the rapier still spanned up to five feet and weighed as many pounds. The length and weight of the weapon mean transition between lines of attack is difficult meaning you would be forced to choose the line before the attack and would not likely be able to change during an attack (a maneuver known as a disengagement or derobement). If you combine that with a generally slower attack you come to realize that defense against a rapier is actually easier than it is against a small sword or sabre. The rapier's inflexibility resulted in a circular fighting style (versus the linear one in use by the end of the age of sword) and often rested on the use of an idditional implement for defense. Again, while five pounds might not be a lot of weight, when you combine it with the length of the weapon the result is a weapon that is relatively slow in any transition when compared to something lighter and is also significantly more difficult to change directions with. In comparison, functionl sabres often weigh less than 2.5 lbs and a small sword or dueling epee weighins in under 2 (in fact, if you look at the modern sport epee, it is literally a sharpening away from a dueling implement).

I will not disagree with your last point however - much of the sword's prestige comes not from it's actual utility but from it's perceived place in history and lore. The sword was the weapon of the nobility. Afterall, it takes little training to become proficient in the use of a spear, but to master the sword takes more than a lifetime - and during the era of the sword only the rich could afford to spend their time in such a pursuit. And, at the end of the day, an untrained man with a sword against a master is all but a dead man, but even an untrained man in the use of a spear stands a chance against a well trained foe.
 

NeutralDrow

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Eclectic Dreck said:
NeutralDrow said:
If you have to actually transition from attack to defense, I'm fairly sure you're doing it wrong...but I think I see your point. Given how effective staves are in close combat, however, I'm afraid I disagree.

I suspect this is why one sees spearmen often making use of a shield or other forms of personal armor for defense.
That might also be because they're in formation. Armies usually like having their soldiers armored.

On the other side of the coin, a small sword (or a foil or epee) can defend and attack in the same motion and is sufficiently light to perform the actions seperately with amazing speed (though the single-tempo would still be preferred in a real duel because a double time approach could certainly lead to a stabbing).
They're also fairly easy to defend against if you're properly trained and carrying anything...or even if you're not. It's a lot harder to grab a longsword (or even a true rapier) with your bare hands than a smallsword.

It is this very flexibility that lead to the sword being called the "Queen of weapons", and it is also the very reason swords were usually the last option in a fight. One would certainly be better served with a spear than a sword from the outset because one simply cannot discount the utility of a longer ranged attack.
That also depends, again, on the type of sword. A lot of the sword's popularity is due to its status as a prestige weapon.
The reason for a transition is simple. While the blunt portion of a spear or halberd may indeed hurt an unarmored or lightly armored foe, all such weapons are designed primarily around a single point of offense. In the case of a spear, one is on the offensive so long as the spear point is facing the opponent, but if one wishes to defend against a thrust from a similar weapon they must move their point from the target at least to a degree and then sweep the weapon in some direction or another to deflect the blow. In the case of a weapon like a halberd, one would be required to make an even more significant transition from attack to defense as more force is required to stop a chop or a cut than a thrust (in the case of thrust often the key is simply using leverage to slightly redirect momentum whereas with a cut or chop you are required to halt the momentum of a fairly massive implement in this case). Simply as a result of being a long and relatively heavy weapon, the transition is going to naturally be more difficult than with a smaller, lighter weapon. As a result, such weapons are, as I said best used with a strong attack, relying on a formation and personal armor to provide defense.
And again, I think you're seriously underestimating not just the utility of the haft, but <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmNTKy8LJiY>the uses of a large stick even up close and grappling.

Being designed around a single point of offense (or two or three points, in the case of a halberd) doesn't mean uselessness in other regards. Spears and <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsGU5KI1qJA&feature=related>longswords (or especially bastard swords) are technically thrusting weapons, but are extremely versatile otherwise. Japanese curved swords (including katanas, yes) make decent thrusting weapons, which helped when fighting armored opponents. Even rapiers had a few uses when used to slash. Really, smallswords are quite limited in this regard; you hit with the pointy end, and you punch with the hilt!

And while one may beieve that a small sword or similar weapon is easy to defend against, I suspect you'd think otherwise if you picked up fencing as a hobby! The thrust is actually significantly more difficult to defend against than a cut simply because you must intercept a blade in motion and redirect it. With a cut, one simply needs to intercept. If one looks at sport fencing as an example, you will find that though there are 10 parry positions, only four of them are commonly needed (that is, quatre, sixte, septime, and octave - with those four parries one can generally deflect any attack to the front, even if they aren't always the most efficent). In sabre, one can potentially use all 10 foil parries along with several only used in sabre, but one generally only needs three of them (not being a sabre fencer I cannot name the positions). And keep in mind that were the weapons live, a mere half-kilogram of force at the tip is all that it takes to drive the weapon through your body. Though the epee and small sword were not designed to be used as cutting weapons, both came complete with razor edges for a portion of the length to ensure the weapon would be extremely dangerous to grab, not to mention hold on to. Just as important, were your opponent unarmed then you have such an extreme advantage in combat that there would have to be an extreme disparity in your armed skill versus your opponents unarmed skill for them to have any real hope of escaping without significant injury. Without a real option for defense the only thing someone could do is displace and hope to grapple, but the fact of the matter is a fencer can throw an attack far more quickly than one can evade. Yes, displacements to occur with varying degrees of success but often this was as a result of a greater strategy that lead to the attacker throwing their attack along an expected line - something that would be impossible to force were you unarmed.
I do know the danger of thrusting attacks (I know very little about sabre sport fencing), and if you're unarmed against someone with an epee, you're still almost certainly screwed (I should have been clearer on that part, I meant fighting with your off-hand open, not carrying nothing at all!). As to the bolded part, up-close and grappling is a real option for defense. It's difficult to do so, but getting inside a (foil/epee) fencer's reach cuts down their options to almost nothing.

Of course, the assumption that it may be easier to defend against a small word than a rapier is also a bit of a misconception. While relatively light compared to previous weapons, the rapier still spanned up to five feet and weighed as many pounds. The length and weight of the weapon mean transition between lines of attack is difficult meaning you would be forced to choose the line before the attack and would not likely be able to change during an attack (a maneuver known as a disengagement or derobement). If you combine that with a generally slower attack you come to realize that defense against a rapier is actually easier than it is against a small sword or sabre. The rapier's inflexibility resulted in a circular fighting style (versus the linear one in use by the end of the age of sword) and often rested on the use of an idditional implement for defense. Again, while five pounds might not be a lot of weight, when you combine it with the length of the weapon the result is a weapon that is relatively slow in any transition when compared to something lighter and is also significantly more difficult to change directions with. In comparison, functionl sabres often weigh less than 2.5 lbs and a small sword or dueling epee weighins in under 2 (in fact, if you look at the modern sport epee, it is literally a sharpening away from a dueling implement).
First off, rapiers usually weighed closer to 2 and a half pounds. Second, that's not how their weight worked. When most of a sword's weight is concentrated in the hilt (as with most primarily-thrusting weapons), the only real limitations are how cumbersome the blade is (not very) and the wielder's own strength.

<url=http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm>Someone who explains it better than me.

I will not disagree with your last point however - much of the sword's prestige comes not from it's actual utility but from it's perceived place in history and lore. The sword was the weapon of the nobility. Afterall, it takes little training to become proficient in the use of a spear, but to master the sword takes more than a lifetime - and during the era of the sword only the rich could afford to spend their time in such a pursuit. And, at the end of the day, an untrained man with a sword against a master is all but a dead man, but even an untrained man in the use of a spear stands a chance against a well trained foe.
To be perfectly honest, it was almost four in the morning and I was fading fast. I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking, but I agree that statement nonetheless.
 

mightybozz

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lostclause said:
ThreeWords said:
lostclause said:
Yes, it's called fencing. Take it up.
This. Do it. It's awesome
Choose your weapon sirrah. Foil, sabre or epee? I'm a sabreur myself.
And myself. Only foil so far though.
A game probably could be made featuring realistic swordfighting. What often irritates me most in this area is games (and films actually) using weapons in bizarre ways or doing unbelievable injuries. For instance, the Assassin's Creed 2 trailer (the one where the player flies over the city, kills some targets then jumps into the sea at the end) shows the assassin take on a man with a halberd. Obviously the player wins! No-one could use a halberd one-on-one and win. Plus everyone stands around watching the player perform moves on the guards and I can't help wondering: why don't they stab him whilst he's busy finishing off their friend?

I'd love to try out a realistic swordplay combat system, though i'd prefer the game not to be based around it alone
 

Nutcase

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Not possible and especially not with cutting swords. None of the key elements of fencing can be adequately represented on screen and without impossible levels of force feedback.
 

RollForInitiative

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xmetatr0nx said:
Because they would be boring and each fight would be over rather quickly. Have you played Bushido Blade?
That's precisely the game that came to mind for me as well. I had a lot of fun with some lightning fast duels in that one.
 

Boaal

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There would be a hell of a lot of factors to put into it. it depends largely on the type of game, but generaly it'd be very very expansive, and yet the fights would be either incredibly long, or incredibly short.

The fight would more of less be determined on one hit. You could possibly have some kind of wounds system. If your character is hit on the arm, they'd probably lose the ability to use it, or the leg they'd lose that. The force of a body shot would determin maybe a death blow or a challow cut, or a long term fatal blow by bleeding, but the victim would pass out first.

If you factor in different swords, different fighting styles, etc, you get a very interesting match up. At the same time you have to factor in forces of all kinds and a thousand and one different animations. It would be really hard hard to do I think, and would end only being played by a very select audience.

Personally I would play it. I think it would be very interesting. But I don't think it would reach the mass market very well.
 

Artemis923

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Alex_P said:
cptjack42 said:
A real sword fighting game seems like it follow a rule of being forced to guard almost all attacks, rather than the current situation which employs a system of taking a slash wound to the chest and shaking it off. A real sword fighting game should leave a player crippled from even the most minute flick of the wrist to a crucial point. A real sword fighting game should make each single individual duel a fight in which the slightest mistake could lead to an ultimate end for you. Alas, I have yet to play, or even have word of such a game reach my ears.
Mount & Blade does what you're talking about, more or less. There's just hit points but one or two hits will kill unless you're well-armored, so you don't really miss "area damage" all that much anyway. Being a good swordsman in the game (when dismounted) mostly involves quick footwork to manage the distance between you and your opponent.

-- Alex
I'm looking forward to the multiplayer. That's gonna be brutal stuff.
 

Renset

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Maybe some day, when technology has increased. But at the moment, I can't really see a sword fighting game being both realistic, and fun and accessible.