Poll: Religion and you

[Dahemo]

Firstly, in my earlier experience in the Methodist Church, surrendering one's will to Christ was a pretty large part of the doctrine. This is what sort of sparked my personal move from Christianity to Nietzsche and his ubermensch ideals.

Hmm, I was brought up RC so this is somewhat contrary to my understanding of Methodist doctrine, and I'm happy to be wrong, but while we were asked to sublimate our desires so as not to contravene the will of God, the actual surrendering of will wasn't too high on the list. Literally put, don't do what's wrong, but we had the free will to fo so, it's innate in the concept of punishment that we have the capacity for wrong action. The Ubermensch philosophy intrigues me, on a side note, as the flip side of the Nihilistic aspect, I've wondered since I learned about it if anyone genuinely followed it.

Secondly, I do not think it is possible for us to claim individual motivations as proof of God's plan for humans. Should we accept that the Abrahamic God is a loving figure, then it would stand to reason that it would be able to grant this selfless serenity to all humans, regardless of merit.

After all, if petty choice was all that stood in the way of God and the salvation of his creations, I don't think the singular, omnipotent being would bother taking their sweet time with it. Unless there is some sort of Referee of the Universe above God, then there's nothing stopping it from going along with what many have claimed to be his intentions. If there is some sort of force controlling God, then there is no reason to worship him, he's not omnipotent, it'd be the equivalent to bowing down before Chairman Mao. Sure he may seem powerful, but he's far from the omnipotent controller of our lives.

I think you've bypassed the freewill arguement somewhere along the way here. God (if it exists) exists outside of time and physical space. However, "creation" inhabits the physical world, and that world is governed by laws (science obviously this is from the creationist viewpoint). If this is given, then we must ask, "why not make us perfect?" and the answer seems to be that the process must be undertaken voluntarily. I can't pull the philosopher out of my arse this second but I'm sure the concept of the journey to perfection being perfection itself has been thrown at me at some point. Our ability to choose is what (those who believe this think) define us spiritually, and so natural law is the universal referee, without which there wouldn't be a choice.

If that seems like mumbo jumbo I'll use an example, who is more redeemed, a criminal who is perfectly hypnotised into being a model citizen, or a criminal who is truly reformed by the punishment he serves?

Secondly, philosophers have spent their lives arguing over the position of the classical figure of God in modern society and somehow, I fail to see that such a sweeping generalisation could so perfectly encapsulate the problem. Yes, it may simply be a case of "The God Of The Gaps" (moving in mysterious ways) or perhaps suffering and evil is innate in creation, or perhaps it is a facet of our neccessary spiritual development to be come more god-like (as detailed principally in the Bible) or mayhap the perspective of such a being is so unfathomable to a mind of our limit that is seems cruel to us. Who knows?

That's just it. If God is such a complex and unknowable being, then how have numerous religions popped up about the world claiming to be the one truth?

I've read that a few times and it still isn't any clearer (I'm not criticizing, I'm genuinely confused), if God is complex and unknowable then attempts to understand could potentially be wildly different. I don't think you'll like that but oh well...

Thirdly, yes, we're all after a better answer than the textbook "I don't know either but let's run with it" but people with faith have to stick to their guns somehow, we can't know everything at all times.

Then why stick to the guns at all? Don't be content with faith, demand an answer. We may not currently know everything right now, but who knows? There's always the possibility of a Unified Theory of Everything. We might one day reach that threshold, or be crushed by a meteor about a week before, but hey, it's worth a shot.

You've answered yourself unknowingly there, we hold on to our faiths because one day we will know, at the very latest, when we die we get the answer, but something might happen before then.

And in answer to your question: innate moraltiy, you have it because every sentient thing on the planet has it, and any pretence to be an avatar of amorality is flawed on the basis that the truly amoral have no need to flaunt this, they gain nothing. You are aware of right and wrong in a moral and physical sense, something which is sharpened through acculturation and nuture.

Again, I've got to disagree with you there. If you take a human being, have it reared in an isolated facility, devoid of human contact, it will revert to a bestial state. In such a state, you can't really tell if the creature has a sense of right or wrong. Morality is something that comes with training. Why do you think there are so many different views on ethics? If morality was innate, would we have a copy of "Das Kapital" on a shelf alongside Ayn Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness"?What about the criminally insane? They have no such innate morality, that's why their insanity is criminal, it leaves them with no judgment of right and wrong. What about those sociopathic individuals who go out of their way to act immoral. Knowledge of what morality is doesn't guarantee that the individual will act on it. I know what Greek is, but I don't speak it. And if they are able to suppress this so-called moral urge, then it must not be the product of an omnipotent, all-loving being.

Well, essentially you've made an unfounded statment to contradict my unfounded statement. Firstly, morality from my perspective is innate. Dogs know right from wrong from an early age, without training, and other animals have shown these abilities, and the problem with humans is that by they time we are measurably congnicient we have been acculturated. The concept of isolation is ludicrous these days but a documented case has existed, a human raised by animals, and there was a vague but measurable moral compass (I have no idea on the source of that, young boy in 18th Century europe is the best I can do). Also, your reading choices are your concern, know thine enemy? I've got Mein Kampf on my wall at Uni, my best friend's Jewish, I'm not seeing a connection. As for this knowledge of morality, through Free Will we can decide to perform each action and because of this our actions are not a reflection upon the creator but rather out moral selves are formed more or less in it's likeness.

I realise we're moving in very Abrahamic/Classical fields here but I'm a westerner so this is home turf for me.

NO U! Sorry, couldn't resist. This is an internet argument after all.

On the basis that my last comment was a little self righteous I'll give you that one. I'm proud of myself for 4.30 in the morning...

 

[unholy vagrant]

I'm atheist and I've always been live and let live. My biggest problem with most religions is dogma. If religion were just a guide for life then I wouldn't have a problem, but for the most part, this is not the case.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

I'm atheist and I've always been live and let live. My biggest problem with most religions is dogma. If religion were just a guide for life then I wouldn't have a problem, but for the most part, this is not the case.

Who would have guessed? Unholy Vagrant is an athiest.

By the way I do agree with you, here *offers cigar*

 

[Kahuna-Kurt]

you know that for all we know everyone is wrong, everyone, it could just be a flying spaghetti monster for all we know. For this I have a skewed view on things(and while I belive most of you have execellent points this is just my take). So I was raised roman catholic, but I really only think of religion passively, I don't really pray but ask moral in my mind and some how I know something knew of that thought and answered it. That's what religion is to me, sure I don't have proof that's the right and all but deep inside I know it is(also it isn't a voice more or less it's in the form of enlightenment).

 

[Barciad]

I'm an agnostic and I leave it at that.

 

[Unknower]

I believe in God and I believe in coexisting with people with different beliefs or who don't believe.

To everyone who has complained about people forcing their religion to you: it is horrible to be threatened for your way of life. It is horrible you've been beaten. It is horrible that your friends who have thought the same way have been killed. It is horrible that...

Wait, you don't mean those kind of things by forcing? Then shut up and go learn respect for those who have had the guts to be atheists and theists even though their lifes were in danger.

If someone has forced their beliefs on to you in some other way than I described and this post seemed offensive to you, then I'm sorry. But most people here are probably complaining for no good reason.

 

[ike_luv]

Religion, in my opinion should be replaced with philosophy, instead of following a group blindly, you should be able to consider multiple ideas and ideals.

That would be nice actually. I mean, I am happy with Christianity for what it's done in my life, but I can see there being a little more tranquility amongst the masses if we broadened our beliefs more towards philosophy. I think there is actually a religion like that... if someone could give me a name...?
I don't think it'd be a "religion" as such, but I reckon sociology would make more sense as well.

I have to defend the "following a group blindly" thing though, because I think what should be seen as more important than good insight into your beliefs, is the quality of your life it may provide. My Uncle went from "Rasta" to "Muslim" not because he knew more about it, or for the sake of cultural connection, it literally just had values that suited his lifestyle. Less drinking, organised eating kinda like a gym membership without the working out! haha!

 

[Unknower]

Religion, in my opinion should be replaced with philosophy, instead of following a group blindly, you should be able to consider multiple ideas and ideals.

That would be nice actually. I mean, I am happy with Christianity for what it's done in my life, but I can see there being a little more tranquility amongst the masses if we broadened our beliefs more towards philosophy. I think there is actually a religion like that... if someone could give me a name...?
I don't think it'd be a "religion" as such, but I reckon sociology would make more sense as well.

Taoism?

 

[stompy]

I'm of the belief that anyone should be able to believe what they want, as long as they keep it to themselves and they don't hurt other people. If people follow these rules, I'm fine with religion.

Oh, and I myself am Agnostic.

 

[Lord Krunk]

Of course people should be allowed to believe what they want, but by no means should they be allowed to impose those views upon others. In my opinion, beliefs are something that should be kept to ones self and they should stay there, away from the people whom they may offend.

Jehova's Witnesses', Radical Islamists, the bloody Gouranga monks... I don't mind what you choose to believe in, but if you'll kindly go and believe in it personally without having to try and impose those views upon me then I'd be very thankful...

Can you tell I'm an atheist?

So true. I hate how Australian schools make scripture compulsory. It's a bore, and I skip it anyway.

I'm a Deist, by the way. Therefore, I don't have a problem with religion, it's more the "divine intervention" aspect that annoys me.

 

[Swenglish]

Agnostic. Nuff said.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

Jahovahs(sp?)witness: "Hello, I'm here to day to" *slams door in face*
Islamic extremists: "Hi, can I have a few minutes of your" *slams door in face*
Christian missionary on the streets: "Hello sir, just a quick question" *punches him in the face*

Athiest here.
There was a "religion" my friend told me of that described how I feel to a tee, I can't remember what it was but basically it meant "I believe in God but I just don't give two shits", I couldn't help but lol cause I kinda felt the same way.

 

[Tolkienfanatic]

Religion serves only as an out for for weak people trying to blame their faults on others.

"I am bad at baseball, but that's ok because God WANTS me to be bad at baseball! YAY JESUS."

Religion in general is the cause for most of the problems in the world, it makes people easy to manipulate and control. Imagine a day when the Vatican puts out a call to arms, and suddenly owns a large percent of the world. Scary.

 

[PiousDevil]

Ill take a big risk by replying to this thread Im a Muslim and I personally feel sad for all those people who disbelieve in God, and it annoys me very much when the only reason athiests use (as far as i can see) against religion is the same thing i've heard over and over again, A form of mind control, mindless sheep blah blah, I personally feel angry at anyone who criticises my religion without taking the time to actually sit down and learn about it first. So yeah, im very much FOR religion in peoples lives.

 

[pieeater911]

I doesn't matter to me what you believe so long as you don't attempt to force me to worship your book, statue or scroll, and so long as you don't look down upon me and think I am a horrible person for not worshiping your book, statue, or scroll.

I'm indifferent to religion. I don't believe in a god, so I guess you can call me an atheist, but I don't hate the idea of a god or deity. I just think it highly improbable and therefore don't care very much to dwell on the subject.

The only time I ever really care about religion at all is when it comes up in politics. I believe religion has absolutely no place in politics. That should be behind your own private doors, and not deciding how my government controls my life. I forget who said it, but the quote "There was a time when religion ruled the world. It was called The Dark Ages." pretty much sums up my government/religion feelings.

And if you're a Jehovah's witness, and you knock on my door at six in the morning to ask "Have you found Jesus?" I will answer the door naked and reply "No, come on in and we'll find him!"

I like my sleep.

 

[Tolkienfanatic]

I personally feel angry at anyone who criticises my religion without taking the time to actually sit down and learn about it first.

What is their to learn about your religion? You just believe in a slightly different version of God than Roman Catholics do, or Methodists do, so on and so forth.

A wise man once said, "Fighting over religion is like fighting over who is the better imaginary friend".

I have since forgotten said wise man's name.

 

[nmmoore13]

I'm a militant atheist. Now, I believe everyone should have the right to believe what they want, no matter how irrational, but their beliefs cannot get mixed up in my life. Whether that means them shoving their ideas down my throat or proposing religous legislation.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

Religion serves only as an out for for weak people trying to blame their faults on others.

"I am bad at baseball, but that's ok because God WANTS me to be bad at baseball! YAY JESUS."

Religion in general is the cause for most of the problems in the world, it makes people easy to manipulate and control. Imagine a day when the Vatican puts out a call to arms, and suddenly owns a large percent of the world. Scary.

I like this guy
This comes to mind also "God please help me, I don't have the mental strength or capacity to get off my ass and do something about my life because it sucks so I'll just pray to you and hope it all gets better miraculously somehow instead of doing anything productive to help myself, because God knows(lol)that you may not exist and then I'm back to square one of actually having to do something to make my life better"

 

[yourkie1921]

I'm satanist. I think organized religion shouldn't be accepted. And definitely not religion that demands you spend all your time on that religion. Which is why I'm a satanist. All it demands, other than certain morals (and I don't mind that in religion), is that when you do a ritual (which you don't have to) you say a few infernal names. Christianity by contrast has you spending hours out of every weekend on it and praying and spends more time on that than supporting it's actual morals.

Theistic, LaVeyan, Setian?

I could've swore I posted a response to this but I guess I didn't. Le Veyan.

And if you're a Jehovah's witness, and you knock on my door at six in the morning to ask "Have you found Jesus?" I will answer the door naked and reply "No, come on in and we'll find him!"

I love you for giving me that idea.

Jahovahs(sp?)witness: "Hello, I'm here to day to" *slams door in face*
Islamic extremists: "Hi, can I have a few minutes of your" *slams door in face*
Christian missionary on the streets: "Hello sir, just a quick question" *punches him in the face*

Athiest here.
There was a "religion" my friend told me of that described how I feel to a tee, I can't remember what it was but basically it meant "I believe in God but I just don't give two shits", I couldn't help but lol cause I kinda felt the same way.

lol. Agreed. I especially like how you hit the christian and slammed the other 2. Why? because 90% of the country is Christian and going door to door for that is moronic.

 

[yourkie1921]

I'm satanist. I think organized religion shouldn't be accepted. And definitely not religion that demands you spend all your time on that religion. Which is why I'm a satanist. All it demands, other than certain morals (and I don't mind that in religion), is that when you do a ritual (which you don't have to) you say a few infernal names. Christianity by contrast has you spending hours out of every weekend on it and praying and spends more time on that than supporting it's actual morals.

Theistic, LaVeyan, Setian?

LaVeyan

If that seems like mumbo jumbo I'll use an example, who is more redeemed, a criminal who is perfectly hypnotised into being a model citizen, or a criminal who is truly reformed by the punishment he serves?

Who cares?

Our ability to choose is what (those who believe this think) define us spiritually, and so natural law is the universal referee, without which there wouldn't be a choice.

I understand that happening for most things. Including serial murderers. But I think if a god exists and he's not evil he would've got in the way and stopped Hitler