Poll: RPGs: The "Grinding Genre?"

[Ranylyn]

Pardon my slow reply to you all. I didn't expect this thread to get attention so quickly. Quite honestly, here on the Escapist I'm largely "just there" and people pass me by. I thought I'd have a few hours to do other things before replying to anyone, haha!

Anyways, If I don't reply to you exactly, I apologize. I might pass over identical opinions I've already replied to (I apologize if you were waiting on a PM that you've been quoted) or miss a post as I blitz back and forth up and down the page.

Yes they are. Any reason this wasn't an option in the poll?

Would you tell a fighting game fan that their genre of choice is mindless button mashing and nothing more but a desire to win? Would you tell a shooter fan that his genre is nothing more than a campfest? There's far more to each genre, especially RPGs, which are often considered the go-to genre for stories. There's no "simple yes" option because that would be like saying a simple yes to "do you believe that fighters are just mashing?" People would take offense.

RPG's will inevitably have some grinding in them; its part of what they are. Some RPG's manage to reduce this, such as Persona 3 (I've not played P4 yet) and Pokemon BW by increasing the exp you get at lower levels and reducing it at higher levels, or any number of other methods. But RPG's are a grinding genre- in that it may not be nessescary to grind, but it is always possible to grind. If you want to grind, then you can, and in many modern games, if you don't want to grind, you don't have to.
So grinding shouldn't be removed, but shouldn't be mandatory either.

Well said. I do respect your opinion. And I agree on one point: Grinding should always be an "option." If A boss hits me for 300 and I have 590 HP, gaining a level or two to get to maybe 610 so I can endure a second hit would be a good idea. But like you said, "it shouldn't be mandatory."

Why the hell most of the polls are so OBVIOUSLY biased... I know, for personal experience, that its pretty damn hard to make a poll without your personal preferences showing in in one way or another, but today it seems like most people dont even try. At all.


Anyways, RPGS are pretty much the main place where you are going to see grinding, its pretty much a give since... well... they ARE RPGS after all! Not saying that every single RPG resorts to grinding (Althougt I honestly have to see a true RPG NOT using grinding in some kind of way, shape or form), but most definitivly do. Now, if you choose to use an underlevel run or some crap like that, so be it. I also do a few of those "handicapped" runs in some games (Soloing Left 4 dead for one? That changes that game completly, And I so love it), but RPGS that kind of thing I just dont care for.


Theres also the final bosses/ bonus bosses that you pretty much *NEED* to be the very max level to even have a chance in the battle (Crawmerax in Borderlands comes to mind, but I am sure theres more than that). I dont considerate grinding to be ilegal or anything here (not that I consider it to be ilegal in the first place anyways).


So, personal opinion: Yes, I tend to grind if I am playing alone because I can just take my time, and I DO try a few strategies, but if they dont work, Instead of thinking of some new strategies I just grind(actually done this on purpose, I dont really remember the last game I did this, but I am sure this is how I would react should the next game be a difficult RPG. Althougt it has never come...so far). After all, game allows me to do so, and its a friking RPG, not Dark Souls, COD or anything that requieres more skill/strategy on your part. Again, not saying that RPGS lack those, its just than theres always the other way to exit difficult situations: Grinding.

In defense of my poll, I would also like to point out something I said in the first post. "Their response was that I had zero right to complain about grinding in RPGs. If I really had 20+ years of RPG experience, I would know the genre is nothing BUT grinding." I was curious who agreed with them, for one, but I was also curious about who agreed with me. RPGs have been my favorite genre since I learned to read at 3 going on 4 (no joke, I idolized my big sister and I pushed myself to learn what sounds letters make so I could try to play the RPGs she really liked. I also wasn't allowed my own save file for a long time due to my age, so I got used to restarting and that gave me chances to re-read any words I misunderstood the first time.) And honestly, I didn't want to offend anyone. I mean, I don't see who could take offense to "I like RPGs because of the tactics and stories and etc" but I do know, personally, people who take offense to "lolz RPGs grindan grindan grindaaaan!" And I'm one of them. *shrug.*

Point being, if my bias did cause any offense, I am sorry.

Your L4D solo run (I used to have that game. My god, nightmares of friends being stupid and killing the AI when we split up, haha) does bring up an interesting point, actually. I've done more SCCs (single character challenges) than I can count in RPGs. And in these scenarios, then it DOES sometimes come down to grinding, because you lack the versatility of an entire team. In those scenarios, you need that one person to be prepared for anything, instead of more "assigned roles" that balance and compliment one another. But on the flipside, in games that spred exp evenly, it's actually hilarious that solo runs become EASIER simply because you automatically brute force everything as if you grinded, though you didn't, from all the exp going to one person.

I'm sorry. I got off topic there. I just thought it was interesting.

The thing with bonus bosses is that they're intended to be the ultimate challenge for the most hardcore, so I agree with grinding for them. But a normal "last" boss shouldn't be anywhere near that bad. To use Disgaea as the perfect example, Tyrant Baal, in his easiest form, is what, level 4000? Grindy. But the actual last boss is only level 80-100 depending on the game, and assuming you didn't pass any "Stronger Enemies" bills. I like this because ANYONE can enjoy the story, at least, while it has a meatier experience for those who love postgame content, replay value, and total playtime. Even if you do a few item world dives to power some gear, assuming you don't abuse level up spots, these bosses are a nice challenge if you just play normally through the story. And this topic was basically aimed at the people who "insist" you "need" to have at least the main character, if not everyone else, 2-4x the last boss's level.

Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ramble at you this long. But you just had a nice meaty post, and I wanted to reply to you. If you have more to say, I would be happy to hear it. I'm sure we could have a nice discussion about this if you were up for it.

The most fun in Persona 4 is figuring out strategies in the boss battles, grinding till your over leveled takes the fun out of it, same to Nocturne and other SMT games.
I rarely play much RPGS outside the Shin Megami Tensie series but if their anything like them then I would say that grinding is only the cheap way to play them.
In a lot of situations,grinding your ass off does not even work,anyone who's fought Lucifer in Nocturne can tell you that, it's times like that where you know that the only way your beating the game is through strategy.

As a more "casual" SMT fan (I've only played Digitlal Devil Saga 1-2, and Persona 2-4)I can say with confidence that most RPGs are actually easier, faaar easier, than SMT. I mean, I can beat FF4 at level 45 without a single game over when people suggest level 60, but the final dungeon of DDS1 gave me over 50 game overs from surprise attacks and being wiped ut before my first action. And the Bonus uberboss of DDS1 was the protagonist from Nocturne, and the normal battle theme played, because your team is just a random encounter to that guy. Heh... yeah. SMT is pretty hardcore as far as RPGs go since grinding alone WON'T save you.

Thank god for the kick in the teeth option.

I had a feeling someone might appreciate that one. Cheers! *passes you a drink*

If you enjoy it it's not grind anymore now is it? What makes the first trip through the dungeon different from the 2nd and 3rd trips? Some may be bored seeing the same thing and want to move on while others enjoy it because they don't get sick of it as easily. Just like how some like to think of a good strategy to beat the boss while others just like plowing through on pure power.

I like options. Grinding should never be a requirement, if you clear the area before the boss you should be strong enough to take it on with a basic strategy. That way you can still choose to grind and not require a strategy or avoid battles and have a tougher challenge when facing the boss. Not to mention it gives you a better control over the difficulty than settings like easy or hard.

I dunno, I just never "got" people who want to stay at the same spot for hours instead of moving on. I mean, of course, exceptions do exist. If enemies in one area give 1000 exp and 1000 gold, and then HARDER enemies in the next area give 500/200, then I might spend a few extra battles in the first zone, just to offset the difference I'm about to experience, but I really am the type who prefers moving on ASAP to see more of the game. It especially drives me nuts when people use expensive items to heal when they're like 3 steps away from a town that has an inn, and they're like "I can just farm more money." I'm not saying everything needs to be the pinnacle of efficiency, but I just don't get that style at all.

I do agree entirely with the second paragraph, though.

It depends a lot on the game. Some contain a lot of grinding, some doesn't. I like challenging bosses with a little difficulty and some games work just fine if you just fight the battles necessary. Then there are those games that send you on fetch quests to kill 200 Demon Wolves or such which are actually asking you to grind. This isn't all RPGs, this is some.

Yeah, quest systems drive me up the wall. The worst is Korean F2P MMOs. I seriously remember this one quest where I needed 300 of an item with a drop rate of something like 1/100000. Because grinding for 12 hours (killing 6 enemies per second, we were very overlevelled in a thick spawn) only got us like 10 of the 300. I mean REALLY?

Mind you, I think mission based systems are just as bad. "Fight your way through this zone and fight the boss!" Okay, fine, I need a .02% drop from a boss that has a 3% chance of appearing instead of the normal boss, and I need to take 10 minutes getting to it every time instead of just camping the spawn. Yeeeeeeeah....

no you are thinking of MMOrpg's. Now THOSE are grindy as fuck.

Well, some of them are actually decent for it. Back when I played WoW, I actually never needed to do "real" grind. As in, I never had to rely on just killing things to level up. Sure, sometimes the quests were boring and arbitrary, (Collect 20 spider hearts? I've killed 73 and only 8 dropped hearts so far. HOW DO THESE LIVE!?) but at least doing "more reasonable" quests carried me to each next level range just fine. Unlike in Korean F2Ps where it's like "I can kill 3000 of these which are worth 500 exp each in the amount of time it takes me to do this quest with a reward of 10,000 exp for killing 150 of these which are worth 100...." At least it's nice to have an actual story reason for doing things, instead of "Oh look, someone's posted on the bulletin board that they'd pay 500 if I kill 20 crows."

To everyone else: Sorry if I didn't reply. I either missed you, or your post basically agreed with mine and I didn't want to sound like a broken record by repeating what you said in my own words.

 

[piinyouri]

Nah, anytime I've ever grinded, it was my choice. I've never ever went through that mess because I had to, that's why I deleted Rainbow Moon.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I recently got into a debate about Persona 4.
The argument they made was that the first dungeon is the hardest in the game. Why? Resource management.

A couple of things.

First - one of the things I enjoy in an RPG is grinding. Not that awful drop-rate grinding you mentioned, but level grinding for new skills and abilities - killing monsters for the pleasure of killing monsters, cause the game is fun.

This, of course, assumes that the game is fun. When the game isn't fun, grinding quickly begins to suck.

For a recent example, I've been playing Persona 3 Portable. When you first go to Tartarus, you are given a limited number of floors and a limited amount of SP. My S-Link guide said I needed to grind at least 50,000 yen before leaving.

I ground 400,000 yen. Why? Because killing monsters is fun.

You mentioned resource management. Mine in Persona games is to kill all enemies possible with just Attack. I try to avoid using any SP at all, try to avoid taking any hits at all, and try to rely on Shuffle Cards for healing (Cups suit in P3).

When I hit a particularly difficult enemy, I try to use the most efficient spell possible to knock it down, and then full attack. I equip weapons and items that increase my Crit rate (when available).

I actually resent some Western RPGs for not letting me grind. Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins both refuse to respawn enemies - once I've killed everything on a planet (or in a dungeon), it's gone forever. That makes me sad. Sometimes, I just want to fly around killing Geth or Darkspawn - I don't want to continue the plot.

On the other hand, I appreciate what you're saying. Having played Xenogears and FF7 many times, I can generally get through those games without bothering to grind - I know all the tricks, and I can 'grind' deathblows and materia on regular encounters.

So no, I don't think grinding is required - particularly not the drop-rate bullshit that has become popular in recent years.

 

[aguspal]

Why the hell most of the polls are so OBVIOUSLY biased... I know, for personal experience, that its pretty damn hard to make a poll without your personal preferences showing in in one way or another, but today it seems like most people dont even try. At all.


Anyways, RPGS are pretty much the main place where you are going to see grinding, its pretty much a give since... well... they ARE RPGS after all! Not saying that every single RPG resorts to grinding (Althougt I honestly have to see a true RPG NOT using grinding in some kind of way, shape or form), but most definitivly do. Now, if you choose to use an underlevel run or some crap like that, so be it. I also do a few of those "handicapped" runs in some games (Soloing Left 4 dead for one? That changes that game completly, And I so love it), but RPGS that kind of thing I just dont care for.


Theres also the final bosses/ bonus bosses that you pretty much *NEED* to be the very max level to even have a chance in the battle (Crawmerax in Borderlands comes to mind, but I am sure theres more than that). I dont considerate grinding to be ilegal or anything here (not that I consider it to be ilegal in the first place anyways).


So, personal opinion: Yes, I tend to grind if I am playing alone because I can just take my time, and I DO try a few strategies, but if they dont work, Instead of thinking of some new strategies I just grind(actually done this on purpose, I dont really remember the last game I did this, but I am sure this is how I would react should the next game be a difficult RPG. Althougt it has never come...so far). After all, game allows me to do so, and its a friking RPG, not Dark Souls, COD or anything that requieres more skill/strategy on your part. Again, not saying that RPGS lack those, its just than theres always the other way to exit difficult situations: Grinding.

In defense of my poll, I would also like to point out something I said in the first post. "Their response was that I had zero right to complain about grinding in RPGs. If I really had 20+ years of RPG experience, I would know the genre is nothing BUT grinding." I was curious who agreed with them, for one, but I was also curious about who agreed with me. RPGs have been my favorite genre since I learned to read at 3 going on 4 (no joke, I idolized my big sister and I pushed myself to learn what sounds letters make so I could try to play the RPGs she really liked. I also wasn't allowed my own save file for a long time due to my age, so I got used to restarting and that gave me chances to re-read any words I misunderstood the first time.) And honestly, I didn't want to offend anyone. I mean, I don't see who could take offense to "I like RPGs because of the tactics and stories and etc" but I do know, personally, people who take offense to "lolz RPGs grindan grindan grindaaaan!" And I'm one of them. *shrug.*

Point being, if my bias did cause any offense, I am sorry.

Your L4D solo run (I used to have that game. My god, nightmares of friends being stupid and killing the AI when we split up, haha) does bring up an interesting point, actually. I've done more SCCs (single character challenges) than I can count in RPGs. And in these scenarios, then it DOES sometimes come down to grinding, because you lack the versatility of an entire team. In those scenarios, you need that one person to be prepared for anything, instead of more "assigned roles" that balance and compliment one another. But on the flipside, in games that spred exp evenly, it's actually hilarious that solo runs become EASIER simply because you automatically brute force everything as if you grinded, though you didn't, from all the exp going to one person.

I'm sorry. I got off topic there. I just thought it was interesting.

The thing with bonus bosses is that they're intended to be the ultimate challenge for the most hardcore, so I agree with grinding for them. But a normal "last" boss shouldn't be anywhere near that bad. To use Disgaea as the perfect example, Tyrant Baal, in his easiest form, is what, level 4000? Grindy. But the actual last boss is only level 80-100 depending on the game, and assuming you didn't pass any "Stronger Enemies" bills. I like this because ANYONE can enjoy the story, at least, while it has a meatier experience for those who love postgame content, replay value, and total playtime. Even if you do a few item world dives to power some gear, assuming you don't abuse level up spots, these bosses are a nice challenge if you just play normally through the story. And this topic was basically aimed at the people who "insist" you "need" to have at least the main character, if not everyone else, 2-4x the last boss's level.

Wow, I think this is my first time in the escapist that someone actually awnsered to one of my posts with a wall of text xD (Not complaining, I like have an infomative discussion for once )

Anyways, I can see what you meant to do with the poll, It was really a minor detail that kind of rubbed me the wrong way, no big deal. I just tend to overreact like that sometimes.

About the Solo character runs in RPG, well, I cant really talk much about it, since I barely play "pure" RPGS (I am more of an action RPG/hibrid lover. Stuff like Fable, The elder scrolls, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, Borderlands, get it?) That begin said I do enjoy some "pure" RPGS every now and then. But from what I saw, you seem to be way more experienced (haha, experienced... yeah sorry about that) than me in RPGs (It shows because of the very fact your doing solo character runs, a "handicapped challenge". Kinda like me with Left 4 dead, I guess we do that when we have so much experience with the game that we want to create our own challenges, interesting).


As for the bonus bosses and "normal" Final bosses, I absolutly agree with everything you said. The bonus boss should be one of (if not THE) biggest challenge in the game, thus only very veteran players should beat it. Its just how it works. On the other hand, While Final bosses need to be challenging enough (After all, theres a reason of they FB status), it should really be THAT hard, and much less frustrating. Again, for this part I feel like I should use Borderlands. In that game, the Final boss is not particulary hard (In fact, I always feelt like it was pretty much a joke, even. But thats a matter of opinions), but the bonus boss, on the other hand... Well, lets just say that I have probably died to it around 60ish times before beating the damn thing. But thats how it should work IMO (Ok maybe thats quite the extreme example, but my point still gets across).


And dont worry about the whole wall of text thing, I personally, as I already stated, find it to be pretty awesome to share ideas with other people on the forums. I hope you dont mind mine, thougt. I am not an English speaker (or in this case writer I guess...) So some of my points might be taken differentily than what I originaly meant. I hope not, of course


As a final final note, while I personally dont mind the occasional grinding, I do understand the people that dont like it at all. Also, the grinding for relativly minor stuff such as an special item or anything (Like random drops from enemy monsters) CAN be pretty annoying. But at the end I feel like it depends on the game.

 

[krazykidd]

I agree , in 90% of rpgs , grind is not necessary at all , IF You don't run . I am a fan of using strategy instead of grinding . I hate being aboe to curbstomp everythin , it makes the game boring . There are of course grind heavy Rpg *cough* Dragon auest 8 *cough* but they aren't in the majority . I think people are just lazy and don't want to think , thus grindig is the easy way out .

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

Many wRPGs have little point in grinding unless that's just what you want to do.

And games like Chrono Cross and Paper Mario pretty much completely disable the ability to grind.

The only RPG genre that is truly heavily about grinding is the MMORPG. And that is a huge fault of the genre. If they put the content in the right places, they were be more like Skyrim or Chrono Cross.

To say grinding is even a particularly RPG feature I believe is wrong. I think that the option to keep becoming stronger and leveling, is. And if you want to have games less linear, being able to have varying degrees of leveling versus other activity has always been a part of roleplaying since Dungeons and Dragons days. I don't think that grinding is one of the most noteworthy things of the RPG.

RPGs and JRPGs are two different genres. Leveling up tends to be more natural in RPGs.

Oh no, not this growing idea that jRPGs "aren't RPGs". jRPGs are inspired by Dungeons and Dragons as much as wRPGs are. And certainly less grindy overall than MMORPGs, an essentially wRPG genre.

wRPGs are simply more about the aspects of choice the Game Master is often able to give you. While jRPGs are an RPG that is more like a Dungeons and Dragons fantasy novel in video game form. But both of the things that wRPGs and jRPGs often strive for, though different, are things that the original Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game, attempts to achieve. The Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game, does, in fact, emphasize a strong narrative.

Also, in games like Chrono Cross and Paper Mario, you don't even really have the option to grind.

Those two, by the way, are prominent example of popular and beloved jRPGs that many choose to represent the entire genre. Also, you don't have to have the option of grinding removed entirely, like some jRPGs have, to make the game a not very grindy experience or grinding not very important.

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

Crud, double post.

 

[Epona]

Being creative with poll options usually results in stupidly bad poll options.

Anyway, grinding is what separates an RPG from an action adventure. I would not like all my RPG's to become Zelda.

 

[Arakasi]

Fallout 3 and New Vegas are RPGs and yet there's barely any, if any, grinding in them whatsoever.
So if you say that RPGs are inherently a grinding genere, I guess you're a 'genresist' or something.

 

[skywolfblue]

What are your thoughts on RPGs?

I like 'em!

Do you really only play them to waste hours of your life on mindless grinding?

Depends on if I'm interested in the grind or it's just tedious. Generally I'll skip anything that is overtly grindy. There are some rare cases (The Netherwing faction grind in World of Warcraft for a particular example) where I find the grind fun and the reward enjoyable, where it feels like all that effort was worth it.

So grinding can be cool if it's optional (you should be able to complete the main story without having to grind). But making it a cornerstone of the whole game? No thanks.

Do you play them for the emphasis on strategy over execution? Do you play them for the story (like I do?) And above all else, do you believe that just because something is an RPG, that grinding should be expected?

Setting/Story/Combat I value all three pretty equally.

No, there can be RPGs without grinding. It's possible to have progression without "repetition".

 

[The_Lost_King]

no you are thinking of MMOrpg's. Now THOSE are grindy as fuck.

Well, some of them are actually decent for it. Back when I played WoW, I actually never needed to do "real" grind. As in, I never had to rely on just killing things to level up. Sure, sometimes the quests were boring and arbitrary, (Collect 20 spider hearts? I've killed 73 and only 8 dropped hearts so far. HOW DO THESE LIVE!?) but at least doing "more reasonable" quests carried me to each next level range just fine. Unlike in Korean F2Ps where it's like "I can kill 3000 of these which are worth 500 exp each in the amount of time it takes me to do this quest with a reward of 10,000 exp for killing 150 of these which are worth 100...." At least it's nice to have an actual story reason for doing things, instead of "Oh look, someone's posted on the bulletin board that they'd pay 500 if I kill 20 crows."

To everyone else: Sorry if I didn't reply. I either missed you, or your post basically agreed with mine and I didn't want to sound like a broken record by repeating what you said in my own words.

I hate those quest. get 1 dragon heart. Oh this shouldn't be too hard. 100 dragons later... *me crying in a corner* WHY DON'T THEY HAVE ANY HEARTS. I CAN'T HAVE DESTROYED ALL THEIR HEARTS WERE ARE THEIR HEARTS. that was an actual quest and an over exaggeration of my reaction to it. I agree that the story was nice. I loved the zones with a complete story like the new Silverpine forest. Though after the 10th character the quests do become kind of a grind.

 

[Eomega123]

I don't enjoy grinding. It's tedious and makes you mind numbingly aware that there is no life in those characters on your computer screen. I love games that avert grinding. For instance, I recently finished playing Cthulu Saves the World, and it was one of the funnest games I've played in a while, largely because it was built to move along quickly. Your health regenerates after every battle, you stop having enemy encounters once you've killed enough of them in a dungeon, once a dungeon's clear of enemies you should be at a decent level to kill the boss, and the enemies get stronger with every round of a battle that goes by, so if you take too long to finish them off you'll be in for some serious pain. Most of the fun comes from working out a winning strategy (just mashing the attack button will get you killed in even the easiest boss battles).

 

[The Madman]

In any given shooter you repeat the same action of pointing and clicking near a seemingly endless amount of times and yet it's not seen as 'grinding' because the act itself can be entertaining.

Same goes for any other game. I enjoy playing to level up my character in an action rpg like Torchlight or Diablo because the act of fighting in itself is enjoyable and the rewards for doing so satisfying.

It only because 'grinding' when I stop enjoying it but continue to have to do it in order to continue the game, which happens to me just as often in other genre as it does with rpg. So why the stigma of grinding has become a thing for rpg in particular I don't know, maybe because it lowers the veil to allow the player to see the underlying mechanics a bit more clearly than your typical shooter or racing game.

 

[Epona]

Way back in the early days of the SNES I was introduced to a game called Lufia & The Fortress of Doom. At that point I had never played an RPG and I was blown away that I could control the difficulty by leveling up. I restarted a few times as I learned how the game worked and from that point on, I was hooked on RPG's. Back then they weren't called JRPG's, just RPG's.

Without the ability/necessity to grind Lufia would have been very similar to every other game I had played before. Even now if I try to imagine running through a Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy game without grinding, it seems like an action adventure more than an RPG.

I don't expect anyone to share my view on grinding, just putting it out there for consideration.

 

[miketehmage]

There is grind in RPG's but a skilled gamer will be able to advance in the game after having grinded for less time than someone less skilled. In some games this means no grind at all, in others it may mean more.

It is far more fun to try and find the smart way forward than just steamrolling everything because you are overlevelled.

OP your friends sound like annoying douchebags that are jelly of your leet skillz.

Captcha: walk free. Indeed.

 

[Epona]

There is grind in RPG's but a skilled gamer will be able to advance in the game after having grinded for less time than someone less skilled. In some games this means no grind at all, in others it may mean more.

It is far more fun to try and find the smart way forward than just steamrolling everything because you are overlevelled.

OP your friends sound like annoying douchebags that are jelly of your leet skillz.

Captcha: walk free. Indeed.

You can't over level and steamroll everything unless you first face difficult battles.

 

[Rack]

Yes they are. Any reason this wasn't an option in the poll?

Would you tell a fighting game fan that their genre of choice is mindless button mashing and nothing more but a desire to win? Would you tell a shooter fan that his genre is nothing more than a campfest? There's far more to each genre, especially RPGs, which are often considered the go-to genre for stories. There's no "simple yes" option because that would be like saying a simple yes to "do you believe that fighters are just mashing?" People would take offense.

So why even ask the question? I mean if you were to create a poll "Do you think fighters are just button mashers?" I think a yes option would be warranted. I don't think anyone would seriously choose it, but it would defeat the purpose of the poll if it were not there.

And RPGs, well they really are just about grinding. I mean it's a wide old genre and obviously Dark Souls doesn't fit in there but in a traditional JRPG you're either high enough level or you aren't. Sometimes there are exploits to work round it, but with the level of information you have the decisions are generally so simplistic as to make it nearly impossible to think your way out of a difficult situation. It then falls down to, does the gama give you enough xp just walking through the game to get through, or does it not? Some don't and they are defined by grinding, some don't and they aren't defined by anything in particular.

That said I did use to love rpgs growing up and I never worked out why until it was pointed out to me. At their best they aren't about anything but that's really their strength, they will never be frustrating (except if they mess up the save system) and they provide a continual feeling of accomplishment. That really can be very appealing.