Poll: Settle a Debate, Please

[BloatedGuppy]

Two people are having an argument over the use of the word "clone" as a descriptor for video games. I.E. Game X is a clone of Y.

The specific trigger in this case was the statement:

"Bastion is a low-rent Diablo-clone."

Position A: Any major points of similarity between two games supports calling the later title "a clone". IE Dragon Age Inquisition was a Skyrim clone. Going on at length about nuance and separation between the way games play and feel qualifies as pedantry. "Clone" is typically used in a descriptive fashion with no inherent judgment.

Position B: Stating that simple mechanical convergence, as in the case of Bastion and Diablo, makes one game a "clone" of the other is hopelessly reductionist, and does a disservice to both games. "Clone" is typically used in a derogatory fashion.

 

[Phasmal]

The only similarity I see between Bastion and Diablo is that they are both top-down dungeon crawlers.

I think there is an irritating tendency to group types of games under a label of being a `clone` of the most popular game of that genre.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think clone games certainly do exist, but not really to the extent that they used to, that's probably due to a bigger fear of being sued if you clone someone's game.

You can use the phrase `clone` without judgement just as a descriptor, but generally people don't.

 

[Seishisha]

To me personaly i always attribute 'clone' to mean an almost exact copy of an existing title, with little or no improvements, innovation or significant change to the established formulae. The games you listed don't fall into my personal definition of clone.

Calling dragon age inquisistion a clone of skyrim would be stupid even though both are open world RPG's with a medieval fantasy setting, all the components that make an rpg important and unique such as character's and story are completely different in both games. It would be more fair to say there was some inspiration taken from one and used in the other but 'clone' is far too harsh.

I certainly wouldnt say bastion is a clone of diablo, there are too many different elements and only a few shared ones. A few examples, art style, sound direction, enviroment, characters etc all are diffenent, the only things simular realy are nebulous at best, simular playstyle because both are top down and so on. A closer example of a diablo clone would be somthing like path of exile, both have simular tone and art style (diablo one and two) they even play in a simular way but despite that they also have a distinctive differance from one another.

I know both your examples are hypothetical i just wanted to clarify how i see them.

To be honest outside of mobile development i have not seen the word thrown around much these days.

 

[DoPo]

"Clone" is typically used in a descriptive fashion with no inherent judgment.

That's what I usually view it as. I've been calling games "Diablo clones" for years now but not to imply that one was lesser, just that they employ similar mechanics. Sure, I'd agree that it is reductionist but it's close enough when you want to convey the simple idea - Torchlight might work differently than Diablo in many ways, when you start comparing them not even side by side, but feature by feature, but they are both of the same genre (hack & slash), have similar control scheme (mouse driven movement/ability execution, with keyboard for simple stuff like changing abilities, using the belt), have similar ideas about abilities themselves (unique trees per class, they use mana to activate) which is enough to broadly say they play similar to each other.

It's a really short form of, more or less, "they are similar enough so that if you liked or disliked one, the same can be applied to the other".

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I feel like there needs to be more connections between two games than genre or camera point of view for it to be called a clone. Like the original Saints Row is a pretty good clone of GTA, but Tomb Raider is not despite the fact its a 3rd person game where you steal things.

Call of Duty vs. Modern Warfare would have been better choices. Or if you're so intent on Diablo, then Diablo vs. Torchlight. Or hell, Fallout 1&2 vs. Wasteland. Impire Vs. Dungeons. You know shit like that were you could make legitimate claims, rather than "Well they look the same!"

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That's what I usually view it as. I've been calling games "Diablo clones" for years now but not to imply that one was lesser, just that they employ similar mechanics. Sure, I'd agree that it is reductionist but it's close enough when you want to convey the simple idea - Torchlight might work differently than Diablo in many ways, when you start comparing them not even side by side, but feature by feature, but they are both of the same genre (hack & slash), have similar control scheme (mouse driven movement/ability execution, with keyboard for simple stuff like changing abilities, using the belt), have similar ideas about abilities themselves (unique trees per class, they use mana to activate) which is enough to broadly say they play similar to each other.

It's a really short form of, more or less, "they are similar enough so that if you liked or disliked one, the same can be applied to the other".

Fair enough. By that standard, would you call Bastion a Diablo clone?

 

[DoPo]

That's what I usually view it as. I've been calling games "Diablo clones" for years now but not to imply that one was lesser, just that they employ similar mechanics. Sure, I'd agree that it is reductionist but it's close enough when you want to convey the simple idea - Torchlight might work differently than Diablo in many ways, when you start comparing them not even side by side, but feature by feature, but they are both of the same genre (hack & slash), have similar control scheme (mouse driven movement/ability execution, with keyboard for simple stuff like changing abilities, using the belt), have similar ideas about abilities themselves (unique trees per class, they use mana to activate) which is enough to broadly say they play similar to each other.

It's a really short form of, more or less, "they are similar enough so that if you liked or disliked one, the same can be applied to the other".

Fair enough. By that standard, would you call Bastion a Diablo clone?

Not really. I'd call it "hack & slash"-y. If that doesn't get the point across, I'd describe it as "similar to Diablo, in the sense of the main gameplay mechanic is you going around killing stuff from a top down view".

For Bastion itself, I'd say that "diablo clone" is off the mark and not a good description, as it implies greater similarity than there is. In essence, if we take "they are similar enough so that if you liked or disliked one, the same can be applied to the other", it wouldn't be necessarily correct as while they share some aspects, they aren't that close.

 

[BoogieManFL]

A Clone is when two games are so similar, that if the art assets were swapped but kept their own mechanics you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart at a passing glance.

Otherwise, if they are different enough but still quite same-y I'd call the newer one a knockoff unless it was better, then an improvement upon X title.


IT IS DECIDED.

 

[Prince of Ales]

I wouldn't call Bastion a Diablo-clone at all. The only real similarity is the top-down interface. They don't even have a similar control method. If I hear "Diablo-clone" then the first thing that springs to mind is a loot-em-up, which Bastion isn't.

On the other hand, of those two positions you've described, I'm tempted to side slightly with Position A. I don't think the "clone" part implies any negative connotations. Futhermore, although I don't think the term was appropriate in this particular example, I think you can call something a "Diablo-clone" and be well understood. For instance I'd call Torchlight and Path of Exile Diablo-clones. They share all the same fundamental mechanics, and I don't think anybody would be insulted if you suggested that Diablo might have been an inspiration somewhere down the line.

 

[DementedSheep]

I don't know that saying something is a clone is necessarily bad although there are better ways to phrase it. However not with Bastion and Diablo and DA:I and Skyrim aren't similar enough to describe that way either but saying Torchlight is Diablo-esqe or a Diablo clone I think is fair (I know that example has already been used but that's what I think with Diablo clone). Anyone who has played Diablo will probably understand what you mean by that. It tells you much more than calling it a hack and slash action rpg.

 

[Lufia Erim]

To me personaly i always attribute 'clone' to mean an almost exact copy of an existing title, with little or no improvements, innovation or significant change to the established formulae. The games you listed don't fall into my personal definition of clone.

Calling dragon age inquisistion a clone of skyrim would be stupid even though both are open world RPG's with a medieval fantasy setting, all the components that make an rpg important and unique such as character's and story are completely different in both games. It would be more fair to say there was some inspiration taken from one and used in the other but 'clone' is far too harsh.

I certainly wouldnt say bastion is a clone of diablo, there are too many different elements and only a few shared ones. A few examples, art style, sound direction, enviroment, characters etc all are diffenent, the only things simular realy are nebulous at best, simular playstyle because both are top down and so on. A closer example of a diablo clone would be somthing like path of exile, both have simular tone and art style (diablo one and two) they even play in a simular way but despite that they also have a distinctive differance from one another.

I know both your examples are hypothetical i just wanted to clarify how i see them.

To be honest outside of mobile development i have not seen the word thrown around much these days.

Would you call Saint's Row a GTA clone ?

I think if you can take two games, switch their titles, and someone can believe that they are of the same series, they are clones.

Example.

Torchlight is a Diablo clone. i'm pretty sure i could trick people into thinking that torchlight is a diablo game.

EDIT: Damn someone beat me to it, well played ...well played.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

Two people are having an argument over the use of the word "clone" as a descriptor for video games. I.E. Game X is a clone of Y.

The specific trigger in this case was the statement:

"Bastion is a low-rent Diablo-clone."

Position A: Any major points of similarity between two games supports calling the later title "a clone". IE Dragon Age Inquisition was a Skyrim clone. Going on at length about nuance and separation between the way games play and feel qualifies as pedantry. "Clone" is typically used in a descriptive fashion with no inherent judgment.

Position B: Stating that simple mechanical convergence, as in the case of Bastion and Diablo, makes one game a "clone" of the other is hopelessly reductionist, and does a disservice to both games. "Clone" is typically used in a derogatory fashion.

All hail position B!

Seriously, position A is the same line of thinking behind the stereotyping of people. Why take the time to consider what makes something unique when you can just slap a simple label on it and call it a day. It's intellectual apathy and laziness.

The only time I call a game a "clone" is if are were a great many points of similarity that were overwhelmingly obvious, such as "Torchlight is a Diablo-clone."

 

[happyninja42]

"Clone" is typically used in a descriptive fashion with no inherent judgment.

That's what I usually view it as. I've been calling games "Diablo clones" for years now but not to imply that one was lesser, just that they employ similar mechanics. Sure, I'd agree that it is reductionist but it's close enough when you want to convey the simple idea - Torchlight might work differently than Diablo in many ways, when you start comparing them not even side by side, but feature by feature, but they are both of the same genre (hack & slash), have similar control scheme (mouse driven movement/ability execution, with keyboard for simple stuff like changing abilities, using the belt), have similar ideas about abilities themselves (unique trees per class, they use mana to activate) which is enough to broadly say they play similar to each other.

It's a really short form of, more or less, "they are similar enough so that if you liked or disliked one, the same can be applied to the other".

Agreed, it's a form of verbal shorthand, to unpack information to the person you are talking to, in the shortest amount of time. I don't see anything wrong with "cloning" of games, and find the derogatory use of the term kind of silly. Last I checked, very few games released have 100% new mechanics and game structure, so you can always trace it back to "this was first used in *insert other game title*, and thus it's a clone" type statement. Which really doesn't solve anything.

By telling someone "Dante's Inferno is a God of War clone" they quickly have a frame of reference for what the game will likely play like, so now you don't have to have a 30 minute discussion about how it plays, they already know. You can now spend your time discussing the specific aspects of the game that are actually different. Story, weaponry, mood, pros/cons, etc.

It's a perfectly serviceable term to convey information. You can of course use it in a derogatory way, but in itself, it's not a negative term. Front loading it with phrases like "low-rent Diablo clone" imply a negative state, but that's due to the other descriptors being used in the statement, not "clone" itself.

I personally only ever use it to convey a description of mechanics, because whether you like the game could have nothing to do with whether or not it plays like another one.

 

[Lightknight]

A game being a clone has to be something that is very similar to the other game in far more than a single mechanic or element. The game needs to feel like and closely resemble the game it is deemed a clone of. This is the nature of the term clone. Sameness, not similarity. Siblings can be similar but clones are basically the same. Copies.

 

[And Man]

"Bastion is a low-rent Diablo-clone."

Dragon Age Inquisition was a Skyrim clone.

Regardless of how you define "clone", how the hell does someone come to either of these conclusions?

 

[Signa]

I had to disagree with both because of the examples. None of those games are clones of each other.

I never user clone negatively, unless it's a bad clone. Clone does usually mean there is something that makes it less than the original, just like xeroxing a sheet, generation after generation. Still, I've played "Zelda" clones that are great games in their own right, even if they aren't as good as Zelda. I guess when you're mimicking a game as good as Zelda, you have to fuck it up pretty badly to make an actually bad game.

Edit: Just so we are clear, a bad clone barely does anything different than the original, and usually does it worse. Sonic is kind of a clone of Mario (left-to-right movement, jumping and platforming being your main mechanics), but Bubsy is definitely a bad Sonic clone (Gotta go fast!).

Diablo basically invented the hack'n'slash RPG genre, but there were other HnS games before it like Gauntlet. Darkstone came out after Diablo and tried very hard to be Diablo (grid inventory, dungeon diving from a main town, point and click combat) but it also tried to advance the formula by making it a party game. You controlled two characters instead of one. The results weren't great, but while a "clone" it did try to advance the formula.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

"Bastion is a low-rent Diablo-clone."

*Chokes on a peanut*

WHAT?!

Ok, look, Torchlight is a Diablo clone. Because it goes beyond just using similar mechanics and copies a lot lot more.

Bastion? It borrows the isometric view and the fact that it's an Action-RPG type game. That's literally all it has in common with diablo. This person you were debating is NUTS.

Personally, I'm in camp B, mostly.

 

[War_Dyn27]

This Poll is made very difficult by the OP's terrible examples. A better example would be 'Saints Row 1 is a GTA clone'. Personally I call games clones when they are astonishingly mechanically and or thematically similar to the original. for instance most of the old 2.5D FPS games are Doom clones because they look and feel just like Doom, or Most 'MOBAs' are DotA clones in my eyes because they are all so similar to the original with little innovation yet.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This Poll is made very difficult by the OP's terrible examples. A better example would be 'Saints Row 1 is a GTA clone'. Personally I call games clones when they are astonishingly mechanically and or thematically similar to the original. for instance most of the old 2.5D FPS games are Doom clones because they look and feel just like Doom, or Most 'MOBAs' are DotA clones in my eyes because they are all so similar to the original with little innovation yet.

They weren't MY examples. They were THE examples brought up during the debate.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I support position B.

Position A is kind of ludicrous.

To be honest, the only way I could think someone might possibly think Bastion (the much better game IMO, but that's beside the point) is a Diablo clone is if they were simply presented with a screenshot showing that the game is also isometric. This doesn't even work for your position A since it's more like calling Skyrim a CoD clone since they're both first person.