Poll: Sexism and Japan

[Ryan Hughes]

That's not what I have studied.

Do not confuse the role of women in society with the perception of sexuality. Those are two entirely different things.

Greek people were extremely sexually liberal, and so were the Romans (although differently). Had we remained in the Greek-Roman culture, we might have produced the same exact things Japan makes. But medieval times were all about using Christianity for sexual repression.

(I might also argue that women in ancient society -did- have it better than they did during Christianity, but this would be an entirely different topic.)

Yeah, you could make that argument and prove only that you know nothing about the subject. Women's rights and sexual "liberation" are inherently linked. And what happened in Greek and Roman antiquity was not liberation, it was sexual enslavement, and it is really, really sad that you cannot see that. In Mycea -before they were enslaved by the Spartans- the topic of whether or not a father had a "right" to his daughter was actually controversial. In Athens, it was punishable by whipping if a woman lost her virginity before marriage. So, homosexual relations were encouraged on both sides, not as an act of liberation, but to protect the dowries of fathers.

Rome was worse. Women were always the property of their husbands or fathers, so the famous Roman Orgies were -again- not an act of liberation but were forced onto women by their owners. Slaves had more rights than women in Rome, and the lower economic class fathers would prostitute their own daughters regularly if their was little chance of a dowry.

Women's roles changed vastly throughout the middle ages, a period of more than 1,000 years. But, I bet you did not even know that no records show any Church-sanctioned witch executions during the entire period. It was not until the so-called renaissance when Pope Innocent VIII officially declared that there were witches. No one really believed in them up until that point, but the pope needed an excuse to distract the people from the famine in Denmark and Germany at the time. In fact, Joan of Arc was never executed as a witch, that is entirely a fiction.

Here, tell you what, I'll let Terry Jones from Monty Python explain it all to you. Also, since python died down, he has become a noted Medieval scholar. I'll even quote him: "The last two centuries have proved a far darker time for women than the middle ages ever were."

 

[Casual Shinji]

If a society is so okay with sexuality, the boys and men in it wouldn't feel the need to throw so much cash at products that hold the promise of boobs.

[legitimate question]Why not?[/legitimate question]


I think the opposite is true. The more "shameful" sexuality is seen to be the more reluctant people will be to be seen purchasing said material, out of fear of social persecution. As such sales will suffer as many will turn to more private means of acquisition.

It's exactly because sexuality is seen as shameful in day-to-day Japanese society that it finds its outlet so powerfully in its fiction. People that supress natural urges (such as sexual desire) typically have the more extreme fantasies. These extremities within fiction might've been publicly accepted, but that doesn't mean the society itself is any less repressed concerning the subject. People tend to be surprised when they go to Japan that while things like anime and videogames are all crazy, loud and weird, that the people themselves are the complete opposite.

It similar to why Japan has karaoke bars... Because in their daily life the average Japanse needs to quietly fall in line with the general worker bee mentality.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

And I could reply by telling you that you are the one proving you know nothing about the subject.

I have studied Greek and Latin language, culture and history for five entire years of my life. And I can tell you the examples you are bringing out would be the same exact thing as some future professor discovering about the ancient gamergate event and bringing it as proof that women in the XXI century were actually slaves.

There is no doubt that Greek and Roman societies were heavily male-centered and male-dominated. I would say it's not much different from the way things are now.

But Roman and Greek had no fear of sex and sexuality. They had no sexual repression. Even the Roman matrons were free to have orgies. And you keep confusing sexual freedom with women's rights. Women were socially repressed; but men and women were sexually liberated.

And this is what we are talking here: sexism. Not women's rights.

Oh? Five and a half years studying? I find it amazing that you've never hear the phrase argumentum ab auctoritate. If you are such an expert, argue. Don't just feed me lame hypothetical scenarios.

I never said that anyone in antiquity had any fear of sexuality. Why would they? Sexuality was a means for them to control and oppress women. They would not fear the chains and whips they used on their slaves, why fear their sexuality? However, it does not change the fact that there was no "liberation," only enslavement. And this is precisely why Women's rights equals true sexual liberation. A point you cannot seem to wrap your mind around.

The historical narrative you present is dangerously simplified, ideological, and incorrect, with no real basis in fact. It serves only two purposes: 1) To simplify one's world view, blaming the majority of injustice on a nebulous concept of "religion." 2) To sate sexual fantasy, at the cost of the suffering in history. Nothing is gained and nothing is true.

 

[Ramzal]

It's funny to watch people who claim to stand for the equality of sexes being the most oppressive forces out there. "SHE SHOW'S TOO MUCH SKIN! SEXISM!!!!" But not that long ago, women were fighting for the right to be able to express themselves however they want and for women's bodies to be displayed as freely as one can care for.

Neo Feminism =/= A cause for equality. It's a cause for oppression under guidelines.

 

[Something Amyss]

Of course not. Honestly, those are some really loaded questions you're asking me.[/uote]

Not really. Right now there's a rampage against American imperialism because some elements want to do "horrible" things like oppose like stop honour killings and female genital mutilation. If we'd been having this discussion a few decades back, I imagine the same thing would be said about sex with kids (If they believe honour killings and FGM are a "culture" thing). Hell, child porn has only been outlawed there in our lifetime (in a bill that also outlaws child prostitution). Largely because of Western pressure.

I think it's a logical question to ask, given the people involved and the people who generally criticise.

Should Japan have to speak English, adopt Christianity or drive on the right side of the road (right, not correct)? Well, no.

But blanket decrees about "social justice" are what I tend to see, and that includes basic human rights.

I'm not saying it isn't a hard question, mind. I'm just not sure it's particularly loaded.

 

[Something Amyss]

Question.

When you talk about Japanese sexism, are you referring to bayonetta and other games like that, more to the general culture, or both?

I was talking about the culture, but media is often a reflection of the culture.

Look, I understand if you don't think Bayonetta is sexist, but people who do aren't automatically saying that it's because Japan hates teh wimminz. However, when we look at the way media portrays people, it often comes back to the perceptions and attitudes of the culture. Look at America's pre-abolition (or even pre-civil rights) portrayals of black people. The idea of the happy negro who was proud to work the field, or the house mammy, who was treated as a motherly influence and not just a piece of property. I mean, there were white folks who saw their slaves, their property as family, and I'm sure there were slaves who felt the same way.

There were black folks who opposed the Civil Rights Movement, who thought of MLK as an uppity you-know-what. Maybe some of them really were happy with being segregated and not having the same rights, but I'm inclined to believe most didn't and were simply responding to the culture at hand.

These aren't completely separate issues, is what I'm saying. And again, they don't have to be deliberately negative. Many people thought, or at least rationalised, that we were helping these poor black people out by giving them shelter, food, an honest job, and Christianity. Were they racist, or do ultimately negative attitudes for positive reasons still amount to racism?

And when that gets reflected in media, is it suddenly not racist because it doesn't intend to portray white people as the superior race?"

The same applies to sexism. Both culturally, and in media as a reflection of our culture. Or in this case, theirs.

Those are specific issues of so-called 'negative rights', an entirely different category than vague notions of cultural sexism, not simply one end of a sliding scale.

Well, except pedophilia's a fairly recent thing in Japan, and it'd be naive to pretend the culture just changed overnight or that there's no influence. Hell, you mention lolicon pandering. This isn't an entirely unrelated thing. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

 

[Scarim Coral]

I think he does rise a good point that I did thought about before that the whole sexy females in asian games is a case of cultural differences.

 

[Starbird]

8bitowl - I will partially back you up from my experience at high schools. Male students here have *way* fewer boundries and hang ups in many regards. I remember a school festival where one of the main draws was several of the most popular male students dressing in drag and acting like models, strippers and restaurant hostesses.

I kid you not, they were sitting on male teachers' laps while others took pictures, or dancing erotically with one another. It was...extremely creepy. And they got a ton of laughs and slaps on the back for it.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

How many of these empowered, sexuality-using heroines are actually having sex? Gaming might be slightly better in tht regard, with it's indies, but in general, western female chracters are a lot more likely to have healthy sexual relationships, where the otaku idols are like untoucable virgin goddesses. Sometimes literally, remember the Kannagi shitstorm about how it's 1000 year old goddess protagonist might have had an ex-boyfriend? Remember when an AKB48 member got her head publically shaved for having sex with a boy?

I do indeed remember the shaved head incident. Though all things considered, China is far worse for women, see below.

There are some prominent Japanese feminists, that have been covering these topics the last 30-40 years, who have had some of their work translated. The most prominent one is probably Ueno Chizuko. She's somewhat controversial but is without doubt Japanese most well known feminist and her body of work is really extensive.

I get what you're saying though, a lot of this stuff can be hard to get a hold of, especially if you don't read/speak Japanese.

I'll have to check her out sometime, I should at least be able to find an essay or two that are translated.

I will say, that even after reading all this, the conditions for women are far worse in China. I spent what I would call a medium amount of time there, and I left with many of my preconceptions shattered about women and the challenges they may face.

In Beijing, I saw a girl on the street -roughly 11 or 12 years old- with a T-shirt that said: "Little Miss Jailbait," in English. . . No, I am not joking. My friend and I tag-teamed our poor Mandarin to try to convey to this girl's mom what the shirt meant, but I don't know if we were able to in the end. It is clear neither mother or child really understood the shirt, but it was almost par for the course of what I witnessed there. A few days later we were being rather tourist-y and eating at the TGI Friday's, when our waitress rang us up. We noticed her math was off by 10 Yuan (about 3$ USD at the time) and we corrected her. When she got back to the register, her male manager looked at the ticket and casually slapped her across the mouth. Not too hard, but it was loud enough that the entire restaurant heard it. I won't say what happened next, but it was not my finest moment as a human being.

Out in Dengfeng, near Zhengzhou, There are billboards that depict a mother pushing her daughter on a swing and say, again in English: "Women are cherished." This was odd, presumably part of the governments efforts to reduce aborted females, but why on earth was that sign in English? I can only think it was for show, not to the people of China, but to foreign visitors to the area to remind them of some fabled effort for gender equality.

In all, when I got back to the states, I wanted to go hug the nearest feminist I could find. More than just what I said here, the casual disrespect they faced on an every day basis beggars description. It really does put the Japanese Idol-Shaming and career discrimination into perspective, though. While I really am concerned for the women of Japan, they have already come a long way, and I think it is worth celebrating that, though.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

I agree with Goombah because there is nothing wrong with using an idyllic human form in video games.

 

[Karadalis]

Japan will be japan.

They do not care for outside views, they do not care what other parts of the world think about them. (and that is not only in correlation to the entertainment industry... the whale fishing industry for example.. the japanese simply dont give a fuck)

Bitching and moaning about the portrayal of female characters in anime and video games from the west will never have any effect. (not to mention its hypocritical if you dont ***** about the portrayal of males in shonen-ai for example at the same time)

Unless japanese gaming culture changes (wich it doesnt seem to be doing anywhere in the near future) the industry will keep doing what it does.

The real crux of this whole debate is:

Is this depiction a cause or just a symptom? And is it really harmfull?

I would say its just a symptom of a bigger cultural issue that we in the west HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITISIZE!

Seriously people.. stop pushing your "superior moral dick" into any other country that doesnt live by the same standards you do. You have no business telling them how to live their lives. They have to sort it out themselves.

Meanwhile the most effective thing you can do is to simply not buy the products... that atleast will have an effect on what license companies will import over from japan.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Well, except pedophilia's a fairly recent thing in Japan, and it'd be naive to pretend the culture just changed overnight or that there's no influence. Hell, you mention lolicon pandering. This isn't an entirely unrelated thing. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

Indeed they don't, but cultural isms are still an indirect and ambiguous variable, alongside innumerable others, not a direct action that violates the rights of others. Its like comparing, on the one hand, a cultural disdain for business people as necessary evil exploiters rather than people who participate in praiseworthy and culturally celebrated endeavors* with, on the other hand, the uncompensated or extralegal appropriation of an individual's private property (either through government or by an individual acting on his own behalf).

*And like almost any argument concerning the positive or negative aspects of what some deem to be manifestations of sexism, there is an element of truth to both sides, its a difficult to even subjectively pin down the 'right balance', and that balance is often radically changed by the inclusion of other variables....which are very good reasons not to equate indirect and fluid variables with direct and concrete rights violations, even if the variables in question are likely a contributing factor somewhere along the road.

All that said, fuck lolicons.

 

[spartan231490]

I absolutely agree with what he says, as far as it goes. All he's saying is that sexualized characters that come from Japan aren't really sexist, as the people and culture that create them do not interpret them in a way that dis-empowers women. That said, Japan is very sexist. Look at how rare female main characters are in japanese media. You can see it in the way that, in japanese manga and anime, powerful females are almost always arbitrarily minimized and sidelined. Just a few examples, rukia losing her power until ichigo is more powerful. Sakura, tsunade, and others being hailed as powerful kunoichi, but almost always being stuck on the sidelines or having their fights happen off screen. Misa Misa having a deathnote, but devoting herself, including half of her lifespan, to a man she's never even met. The list goes on. Still, no one is perfect, and Japan is certainly improving over time.

 

[Karadalis]

I absolutely agree with what he says, as far as it goes. All he's saying is that sexualized characters that come from Japan aren't really sexist, as the people and culture that create them do not interpret them in a way that dis-empowers women. That said, Japan is very sexist. Look at how rare female main characters are in japanese media. You can see it in the way that, in japanese manga and anime, powerful females are almost always arbitrarily minimized and sidelined. Just a few examples, rukia losing her power until ichigo is more powerful. Sakura, tsunade, and others being hailed as powerful kunoichi, but almost always being stuck on the sidelines or having their fights happen off screen. Misa Misa having a deathnote, but devoting herself, including half of her lifespan, to a man she's never even met. The list goes on. Still, no one is perfect, and Japan is certainly improving over time.

You forgot to mention that its also very dangerous being a female char asociated with the male protagonist in any gundam series to date. Well kept for the gundam build series but then theres no real war and its created to sell more model kits XD

ON THE OTHER HAND:

Shonen-Ai... have you seen some of that stuff? A genre that panders to and is mainly consumed by female... and boy is there alot of blood involved in those.

I think that the japanese entertainment industry will pander to every group in their country making them look like they are the main focus... when ofcourse the main focus is MONEY!!111

Also there ARE lots of anime where the females are the main focus of power and the males are less powerfull.. fate stay night, tokyo ESP, Madan no Ou to Vanadis as well as series like psycho pass if you look at the recent ones.

Male characters in these animes are either moral support or far less powerfull. In case of psycho pass where there are no clear "power levels" the story focuses mainly on the heroines story arc


As for harem anime:

The males in these series often play the role of things to be fought about by the females, most oftne being clueless overfriendly helpless bumbling idiots, not really the most flattering attributes arent they?. Its funny how harem anime are sexist one way or another.. if its a couple of males fighting over a single female.. its sexist because they objectify the female, if its a bunch of girls fighting over a single guy its sexist because its a male power/sex fantasy. For the moral police theres only one logical outcome: harem anime should not exist.

Me? I like a good harem anime for the rediculus scenarios and the shenanigans that the protagonists get into to outdo each other.

 

[Kameburger]

You know I clicked agree because I do agree with the sentiment to some extent. But I would say that the video does seem a bit rushed and there are a few observations that I didn't totally agree with. But the sentiment I do quite agree with. Although I would say that when you talk about a culture you should avoid generalizing as much as possible and speak to trends as much as you can.

I've lived in Japan for close to a decade, and what I've learned is that sexuality, and gender roles are just different here.
I don't get the sentiment in Japan concerning gender is centered as much around personal identity as it is in the US or to a lesser extent the west. Is a bit more centered around the constraints that it may have on your future. It is still very difficult for women to have a family and have a career and many if not all women are often forced to choose between the two.

Sexual conservatism is a very different thing in Japan as well. Women being sexual in the way Bayonetta or Cutey Honey is, is more liberating in Japan but there are a lot of constructs that frankly don't quite exist in the same way in the US. The fact that humans are sexual is not a taboo in Japan, and even within the constructs of society, playing around isn't nearly as universally condemned. Where the conservative tendency seems to be the construct of family, and timing to which you build your life. Because of this many young Japanese women seek serious relationships as early as their mid 20's in order to get married with some healthy years before 30. Essentially while many Americans, and indeed other western countries are still at an age where they are confused and finding themselves, many Japanese face intense pressure to already be well on the way to producing a nuclear family. This expectation while a source of tremendous stress and pressure among many Japanese, still remains.

All this tension and stress ends up producing one of the largest entertainment machines in our planets history. Manga, Games Anime, Manga, musical performers, idols, and including the adult film industry is based around a culture that forces people to enjoy things between their commute. Managa is produced cheaply and comprises 60% of all printed materials in Japan. The market for this product is extremely diverse, not just between women and men, but also for a much wider age group. The target audience for a publication like Shonan Jump which in the US is targeting 12 to 20 year old boys, is targeting men from 8 to 40, with a very healthy female readership. Consequently, there is no stigma with gearing your creation toward a specific audience as it is perceived as more of a genre than a demographic. But this is a bit of a tangent

The image of a character like bayonetta is likewise not seen as a much more empowering character because she is not constrained by the societal pressures of well... Japan. A 20 something year old woman who free to wear and do what she wants is a very liberating prospect not only to young Japanese girls, who would probably love to have a few years more freedom to go out and feel sexy before they are pushed into marriage, while simultaneously being attractive to men who are not just attracted to the physical aspects, but also that same sort of woman who is going to not push them through this lifestyle.

There is no such campaign in Japan for more realistic representations of women, the atmosphere is just different.

 

[Newway12]

Japanese nerd culture is all about pandering to particular fetishes.

 

[briankoontz]

For that matter, Japan in general has a huge hangup about virginity. How many of these empowered, sexuality-using heroines are actually having sex?

Exactly. Western gamers love to crow about how "sexualized" female characters are just fine, but these characters rarely have sex or are even in an (off-screen) sexual relationship.

The Bayonetta movie is a classic example. This "empowered" sexualized woman spends nearly the entire movie in combat. She licks her lips suggestively (at nothing but the audience) and prostrates her body AS IF she is sexual without ever actually being sexual.

Sexuality requires emotional and physical intimacy, something Bayonetta doesn't know anything about.

But not just her. It's incredibly rare for any video game character, man or woman, to exhibit emotional intimacy, especially in a sexual setting. Grand Theft Auto loves fucking prostitutes and "scoring" with dates, but forget about intimacy and love.

What happens when the "in love" Mario finally "rescues" the Princess? Not a whole lot. The Princess thinks a peck on the nose and then running off to soon be re-captured is a lifestyle choice.

Bayonetta is good at being SEDUCTIVE. This gives her the emotional maturity of a confused teenager. Her sexuality is non-existent in any mature sense. She mentions reproduction the way a dilettante might.

Because video game characters typically spend their entire time Saving the World, One Corpse at a Time, there's no time for emotional or sexual intimacy. They are just too busy running around killing everything in sight.

When gamers decide they want something better from their characters developers will take notice. From what's typically said on this forum about the "awesome sexualized empowered female characters" like the oft-mentioned Bayonetta, that's not happening any time soon.

 

[clippen05]

If Japan ever changes gaming will be dead.

What about the millions of people who play games that aren't from Japan; surely their 'gaming' will stay exactly the same? Please take your misguided doomsaying elsewhere. Besides, I don't think its fair to force a society to maintain total sexism against women just so 'muh videogames' can continue to 'live'.