Poll: Should Hallucinogens be legal?

[Navvan]

(this might not apply to the few countries that do legalize any of these drugs)

Been listening to lectures by Terence Mckenna on Youtube. If you don't know who he is, He was one of those philosophers/quasi-scientists that thought in order for us as a species to truely understand the universe, for us to advance as a species, drugs such as psilocyben-containing mushrooms, Acid, and DMT would be required to expand our conciousness into unheard of vistas of reality and perception.

Now, I can understand fairly well the illegality of most drugs, but I can't figure out why the holding of hallucinogenic substances are felonious in most countries? In what ways could they harm someone?

worried about driving while on it? Is in possible to drive when your room is vibrating with every breath you take and there are mercurial spheres giving you disaproving undulations inside of your eyes?

worried about getting hooked? most of the compounds in these drugs build up in your system after the effects go away so you gain a tolerance after only a couple of days of repeated use, which then the tolerance wears off after a few days of not using.

worried about mexican drug cartels and biker gangs getting more money? The drugs are not physically addictive, therefore no repeat business, making these drugs poor drug-lord ventures.

Worried about going into permanent psychosis from one hit? I'll give you that, but no more so than the guy who can go schizophrenic after marijuana usage. However, if I recall, there are medications out there just built for these things called anti-psychotics, if I'm not mistaken.

The only "deaths" I can see happening are the occasional person who think they can fly so they jump out of the window,which probably shows that the person in question is possibly a moron for not trying to fly off from the ground first.

Fellow Escapists, please provide thought, suggestions, rebuttals, any knowledge in helping me understand this question of why most Hallucinogens are illegal. Think I'm just some douche who doesn't know what he's talkin about? Fine call me out on it. give links and whatnot to prove that these things are bad or good for humanity.

I only seek truth to a vexing thought, no more no less.

The problem with hallucinogens is that they cause a large rift between shared reality and individual reality in an open environment. Because individual reality is entirely subjective the end result is rather difficult to predict, and thus the risks can vary from nothing to someone murdering infants for being the Anti-Christ. Although I admit the later is an unlikely extreme for most individuals when you take the using population as a whole you are bound to get a few cases that are similar.

Hallucinogens are by definition meant to alter the way you think and how you see the world. Because of this they can also cause long term mental health problems, and mental health drugs are far from perfect.

So its clear that if hallucinogens became legal they would have to be heavily regulated. That is, you would have to go to a special facility to both get clearance by psychologists to use them and to actually use them (for your own and others safety). This however, would do little to change the current market of hallucinogens because the vast majority of people who would like to use them would fail the criteria for "Mentally fit". We then end up with a facility unable to support itself draining revenue for the relatively few people to try a hallucinogen legally.

I also reject the idea that the use of hallucinogens are required to advance as a species. Advancement is subjective, but I'm assuming that they primarily mean advancement in understanding the universe and reality. Science allows us to understand the physical observable universe and is unquestionably the best tool in that regard. Understanding what constitutes reality could be assisted by hallucinogens but there is no reason to think it is required. It is again a subjective experience, but everything you can gain from hallucinogens I would argue you could also gain from sensory deprivation tanks and long-term isolation.

 

[infohippie]

Abso-frigging-lutely. Hallucinogens should definitely be legal. I do not believe the government should have any say in what we choose to put into our bodies other than providing education. Real, honest education, that is, not the outright lies told by the drug warriors.

Trust me, most people are irresponsible enough without drugs. I just don't understand why people would want to use them, unless they're addicted. But when people argue that it should be legalized, they always say it's not addictive. I just don't understand why people would want to throw away so much of they're self control just for a hallucination.

If you haven't tried it with an open mind, you can't really understand.

 

[Korolev]

Hallucinogens can be dangerous - the distort reality. That's why people take them. Believe it or not, you need to have grasp on reality to function.

I wouldn't put people in jail for using hallucinogens, provided that they used them in a safe manner - as in, you have friends to watch over you when you take it, you remove sharp objects from the vicinity and you lock all the windows so you don't try to jump out of them. Provided that you could take Hallucinogens in a safe manner, I would legalize it.

However, please spare me the whole "free-your-mind" nonsense. Hallucinogens don't "expand" your mind - it just confuses your mind and makes you see hallucinations. Also, drugs will not "evolve" humanity - evolution doesn't work that way to begin with. And I doubt that hallucinogens will "change the world" as some have put it - the hallucinogenic mushrooms have been legal in Amsterdam for a good while and that didn't cause their society to mystically change into a paradise of freedom.

I personally, would never, EVER take hallucinogenic drugs. They don't "elevate your mind", they just confuse your mind. All the scientists I know don't use hallucinogens to do their work - the idea that somehow this drug will magically make us all geniuses is idiotic in the extreme - Einstein wasn't dropping acid when he came up with the General Theory or Relativity. Newton wasn't on LSD when he figured out Calculus. This idea that we need to alter our minds with drugs to "achieve" a mental state is an idea created by weak people with no imagination. I don't need drugs to use my mind effectively. I don't need drugs to use my imagination - I've got a good enough one already. Besides, I'm not afraid of reality and I always, always want to be in control of my mind.

I'm perfectly willing to make LSD and those magic mushrooms legal. You can't overdose of them, and as far as science knows, they are not addictive. If you can use them in a safe, controlled manner, I would say legalize them.

But I still think you'd be awfully stupid to want to run from reality.

 

[chadachada123]

Drugs are a Crutch for those who can't deal with reality. If your mind can't be opened without foreign help then your mind probably isn't meant to be opened. If i were to tell you the only way we can truly call ourselves Sexually domineering to one side is to experience the deep lust and passion of both sides would you not think i am insane? Drugs may not have a physical addiction but they have mental addictions. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

How would you feel if someone said that video games are a crutch for those who can't deal with reality? Movies? Music? All art? All forms of entertainment?

Non-physically addicting drugs can be just as addictive mentally as video games, or gambling, or [X fun activity], too. People can die doing all of these, or throw their life away, and if done in a safe setting, all are perfectly healthy ways to enjoy life.

There is a huge difference between drug use and abuse, much like there is a huge difference between a gamer and a gaming addict.

 

[Megahedron]

I'm afraid I can't trust anything you're saying because your avatar is climbing out of the computer and DUDE YOUR CLOCK IS A FACE!

 

[chadachada123]

Uh no that's a really fucking stupid idea. The second someone kills another person while on them, then bingo, you have your reason for banning them. What is the POINT of them anyway? Expand your mind blah blah blah. Why can't someone live their life without getting ripped out of their mind to...what? Have fun? Hang out?

*Sigh* "The second someone kills another person while playing Grand Theft Auto, then bingo..." "What is the POINT of them anyway?" "Why can't someone live their life without..."

This type of reasoning gets us nowhere. It also raises the question of why alcohol is legal when it causes just as much irresponsible and harmful behavior.

 

[lacktheknack]

The way forward in unlocking other realities, planes of thought, etc. for mankind is hallucinogenics?

...Considering how extremely "rational" the modern world is, I can see where that train of thought ends.

 

[Navvan]

Of course they should be legal. Who the fuck is ANYONE to tell me what I can and can't do with my own damn body? As long as I stab you in the face because it looks like C'thulu, you have no right to say anything.

Hallucinogens shouldn't be legal just for that reason alone, either. How many innocent people are in jail or prison right now because they just wanted to high in the privacy of their own homes? Hundreds of thousands, that's how many. We can save SO much money as a nation by having just those few named hallucinogens legalized. Not to mention it could then be regulated so no one dies from a batch, and of course taxed for no reason what so ever.

The only thing I have a problem with is that stupid people would take those drugs, BY THEMSELVES, and freak the fuck out. But if you're stupid enough to take those drugs without someone to watch you and make sure you don't think a Leprechaun is trying to ear-fuck you with a 3-foot dick, you deserve whatever injuries you get from it.

It's the stupidest thing in the world to tell people what they can and can't put into their own bodies, on their own time, in the privacy of their homes. That's why I don't give a FUCK about drug laws to begin with. If I want to smoke weed, I'll do it. If I want to drop acid, I'll do it. If I want to get so high that going from carpet to tile makes me think I'm fall out the sky, I'll fucking do it. If you don't like it, get out of my house and shut the fuck up. Because it's not your, or anyone's right to say I can't.

I'd like to start off with that I agree to an extent. When you hold individual freedom as they highest authority then there is little reason to ban drug use so long as its regulated in such a fashion as users don't hurt others.

The problem with this argument is that the premise is false. Individual freedom is not the highest authority, societal demands are. The argument you gave is taking an individualistic approach to a societal problem. Hedonistic acts impair a societies ability to function, that is they lower overall productivity. That may not be a true statement on an individual basis, but it is a true statement when taken across an entire population. It is only tolerated to the extent that it is because humans require a threshold level of pleasure to function at peak efficiency.

Society as a whole then has ample reason to shun strong hedonistic behavior, and as a result we have drug use being illegal. It is also the direct result you see shunning of excessive recreational activities (too much video games) and the reason casual sex was frowned upon in the past. It is only when society accepts a hedonistic outlet that it becomes acceptable to perform.

Of course the majority of this is just my reasoning on the matter. I have no studies to back it up.

 

[chadachada123]

I recommend for everyone this link: [link] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin_mushrooms#As_medicine [/link]

In the paragraph above that,

"One-third of the participants reported that the experience was the single most spiritually significant moment of their lives and more than two-thirds reported it was among the top five most spiritually significant experiences. Two months after the study, 79% of the participants reported increased well-being or satisfaction; friends, relatives, and associates confirmed this. They also reported anxiety and depression symptoms to be decreased or completely gone."

I also report, from personal experience, that shrooms was the most spiritually-significant moment of my life. At the very least, it felt like it. It doesn't really matter if my feelings actually WERE an expanding of the mind, it WAS what felt like a great mind expansion. It also made me realize just how warped time is, and how the perception of time can change drastically based on small differences in chemical balance.

And if this can be used to treat my depression and anxiety, then you bet your ass I'm going to support medical study of it.

This doesn't even take into account the liberty side of it, that "people should be free to do what they will in their own homes, outside of the public eye and with all involved member consenting." On top of that, for some hallucinogens at least, alcohol is just as bad, and in fact can kill you very easily, while shrooms cannot be overdosed in any realistic way. It's easier to overdose on aspirin than on psychedelic shrooms.

 

[Hatter]

Drugs are a Crutch for those who can't deal with reality.

Pff, reality can't be perceived by humans, not by their senses nor by the cultural filters we all have.

And even then, every person is accountable for himself. If anything should be illegal it might be weapons to kill humans, and those are legal in the US, everything else should be fair game imo.

Yeah, but if you want to live in the U.S., you've got to play by the U.S.'s rules. The idea of civilization is that everybody who wants to be apart of it contributes to the whole, allowing us to advance. Some rigidness as far as rules go is required for a civilization to be able to sustain itself as it advances, therefore drugs that are illegal, are illegal.
I think that any drugs not necessary for your health should be illegal.
I'm fine with people doing any drug they want, as long as they aren't on my team while they're doing them.

 

[KoalaKid]

Do we REALLY need junkies running down the streets nekid asking for shrooms?

It would be an interesting sight...

\

there are no hallucinogen junkies, true hallucinogens are nonaddictive.

That's not entirely true. The term hallucinogen is used simply to describe a compound which can induce hallucinations. While it's true that LSD and DMT are rarely physically addictive, there are some well established hallucinogens which can be addictive. Mushrooms, for instance, can be psychologically addicting. The prevailing theory right now is that the only reason we don't see mushroom addiction on a regular basis is that they're so expensive that most users can't use regularly enough to develop psychological addiction. And Ketamine (a drug no one would hesitate to call a hallucinogen) is well known to have both physiologically and psychologically addictive properties. Just look up a biography of John Lilly if you don't believe me.

there are a group of drugs or plants classified as true hallucinogens, ketamine is not one of them. ketamine is classified as a dissociative not a hallucinogen. no true hallucinogen is physically addictive, and as far as psychological addiction, you could become psychologically addicted to pickles.

 

[chadachada123]

I'd like to start off with that I agree to an extent. When you hold individual freedom as they highest authority then there is little reason to ban drug use so long as its regulated in such a fashion as users don't hurt others.

The problem with this argument is that the premise is false. Individual freedom is not the highest authority, societal demands are. The argument you gave is taking an individualistic approach to a societal problem. Hedonistic acts impair a societies ability to function, that is they lower overall productivity. That may not be a true statement on an individual basis, but it is a true statement when taken across an entire population. It is only tolerated to the extent that it is because humans require a threshold level of pleasure to function at peak efficiency.

Society as a whole then has ample reason to shun strong hedonistic behavior, and as a result we have drug use being illegal. It is also the direct result you see shunning of excessive recreational activities (too much video games) and the reason casual sex was frowned upon in the past. It is only when society accepts a hedonistic outlet that it becomes acceptable to perform.

Of course the majority of this is just my reasoning on the matter. I have no studies to back it up.

I would say that the majority of younger people support at least legalizing marijuana, and many/most tend towards legalizing "lighter" hallucinogens like shrooms. If my interpretation of your reasoning is correct, your basis for whether something is socially acceptable (and thus, should be legal) is if society views the act as "acceptable"?

I can't say that I agree with having social acceptable coincide with legal acceptable. That's where I'm confused by your argument.

 

[Korolev]

I mean, remember all those hippies in the 60's who got blazed on acid and hallucinogens, claiming that it would "Free" their mind and allow them to become "transcendental"? Where are they now? Have they become illustrious super-humans with a mind that can control the cosmos? The few hippies I've met from that period are on welfare checks! A lot of good that acid did them!

I'm not saying that acid will destroy your mind - in all probability, it won't. A few people do have EXTREMELY bad reactions to LSD, but for most people it's non-addictive and as far as we know, pretty harmless (well, at least no more harmful than beer).

But it won't help you achieve anything. Reality exists. Drugs don't "free your mind" - because reality isn't an illusion. If anything, it prevents you from thinking clearly and soberly on your situation.

We are a mass of neurons, axons and chemicals. That's what we are - we ARE our brain. We are a connection of synapses and chemical reactions and electrical activity. Drugs do nothing but distort that - they alter, not reality, but our perception of it.

Being on Acid is not more "illuminating" than being drunk. Personally, I think you have a right to be tripped up on acid or drunk out of your mind. And I also have the right to strongly disapprove of such activities. Go ahead - waste your mind. Run from reality. Lose control.

We'll see where it gets you.

I, on the other hand, work in lab. I handle dangerous chemicals almost every day (Ethidium Bromide, Chloroform, Hydrochloric Acid, etc). I have to analyse the results of experiments. I have to think carefully about how to improve said experiments, how to check for errors, and what the data from said experiments means.

And I can't be out-of-my-mind when I do those things.

Look at the people working in the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) - they are uncovering the deepest secrets of nature. And they do it with sober, intelligent minds working hard with only their wits and imagination. And they've done more to uncover reality than all those loser hippies and their LSD blankets. What have THEY made? What have those hippies discovered? What contributions to science have they wrought with their buzzed minds?

NOTHING.

NOT. ONE. THING.

Keep your drugs. The scientists of this world are imaginative and intelligent enough to not need them.

EDIT: And yes I disapprove of alcohol as well. I don't drink alcohol. ANY alcohol, and I never will. I am always in control of my body and my perception of reality is never altered by any substance. Alter your mind, you alter yourself, and I have enough pride in who I am to never need or want to do that.

 

[Navvan]

Snip

Two things to state here. First I did not mean to suggest that socially acceptable and legal are identical. I meant that social acceptability is the driving force behind legality. That is the origin of laws in the first place. So yes, I would agree with you that social acceptability and legality are not the same, but would add that they are connected.

Secondly when I say socially acceptable I mean across the largest acting governing body of a society. While among college students it may be acceptable to smoke marijuana you have to take into account older generations are also part of the largest governing body. The US government in the case of USA. I would predict that as the older generation dies out marijuana will eventually be legalized.

Of course this takes time, and overturning previous laws can be problematic. You also have the added effect of social perception, that is the lingering continuation of what everyone thinks what the other members of society think.

 

[chadachada123]

I mean, remember all those hippies in the 60's who got blazed on acid and hallucinogens, claiming that it would "Free" their mind and allow them to become "transcendental"? Where are they now? Have they become illustrious super-humans with a mind that can control the cosmos? The few hippies I've met from that period are on welfare checks! A lot of good that acid did them!

I'm not saying that acid will destroy your mind - in all probability, it won't. A few people do have EXTREMELY bad reactions to LSD, but for most people it's non-addictive and as far as we know, pretty harmless (well, at least no more harmful than beer).

But it won't help you achieve anything. Reality exists. Drugs don't "free your mind" - because reality isn't an illusion. If anything, it prevents you from thinking clearly and soberly on your situation.

We are a mass of neurons, axons and chemicals. That's what we are - we ARE our brain. We are a connection of synapses and chemical reactions and electrical activity. Drugs do nothing but distort that - they alter, not reality, but our perception of it.

Being on Acid is not more "illuminating" than being drunk. Personally, I think you have a right to be tripped up on acid or drunk out of your mind. And I also have the right to strongly disapprove of such activities. Go ahead - waste your mind. Run from reality. Lose control.

We'll see where it gets you.

I, on the other hand, work in lab. I handle dangerous chemicals almost every day (Ethidium Bromide, Chloroform, Hydrochloric Acid, etc). I have to analyse the results of experiments. I have to think carefully about how to improve said experiments, how to check for errors, and what the data from said experiments means.

And I can't be out-of-my-mind when I do those things.

Look at the people working in the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) - they are uncovering the deepest secrets of nature. And they do it with sober, intelligent minds working hard with only their wits and imagination. And they've done more to uncover reality than all those loser hippies and their LSD blankets. What have THEY made? What have those hippies discovered? What contributions to science have they wrought with their buzzed minds?

NOTHING.

NOT. ONE. THING.

Keep your drugs. The scientists of this world are imaginative and intelligent enough to not need them.

EDIT: And yes I disapprove of alcohol as well. I don't drink alcohol. ANY alcohol, and I never will. I am always in control of my body and my perception of reality is never altered by any substance. Alter your mind, you alter yourself, and I have enough pride in who I am to never need or want to do that.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but wasn't the group that discovered or at least revolutionized our understanding of DNA - specifically the double-helix, on LSD at the time?

There is also a great many number of achievements done during a drunken rant/rage (Cracked.com did a great article on some of them), and great artistic advancements done while on drugs of various sorts.

While I am also a man of science, I recognize that some people are not cut out for science at all, but can be excellent at providing material for the artistic community. The next great game artist could get his character design or weapon design during some sort of high.

In any case, your point really seems to boil down to "if you're a scientist, you can't have fun, period, because no one is having fun while advancing science." I agree that people on the clock should not be incapacitated, but while in a recreational period I see no fundamental difference between enjoying, say, video games, and enjoying a non-damaging recreational drug like shrooms.

 

[chadachada123]

Snip

Two things to state here. First I did not mean to suggest that socially acceptable and legal are identical. I meant that social acceptability is the driving force behind legality. That is the origin of laws in the first place. So yes, I would agree with you that social acceptability and legality are not the same, but would add that they are connected.

Secondly when I say socially acceptable I mean across the largest acting governing body of a society. While among college students it may be acceptable to smoke marijuana you have to take into account older generations are also part of the largest governing body. The US government in the case of USA. I would predict that as the older generation dies out marijuana will eventually be legalized.

Of course this takes time, and overturning previous laws can be problematic. You also have the added effect of social perception, that is the lingering continuation of what everyone thinks what the other members of society think.

Fair enough, I apologize for misinterpreting your point. I suppose I have nothing else to add except that I disagree with society at this point in time, hah.

 

[bloopblerp]

Yes. I think most drugs should be.
Once legal, the governments, rather than just looking down on drug users can offer real information and useful services. Things like safe injection rooms and non intimidating help services, having the drugs professionally manufactured so that it is possible to maintain some kind of quality control and being able to provide real drug education. These days most of what you get in the way of drug education is "DRUGS ARE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY WILL KILL YOU OR MAKE YOU CRAZY" where absolutely no real information is actually given. And finally with better, safer legal drugs being made by a reliable government branch the money in making and distributing illegal drugs will dry up giving drug cartels and a kick in the nuts.

People are always going to find things to inebriate them self with, but then very least that can be done is to make sure people know exactly what they are taking and how to do it safely. So the days of people taking and dying because of some bullshit impurity filled drug with no dosage information or guidelines of how to safely administer it will be over.

Ps, when i say legalize i don't mean allowing it to be dealt out on the streets kind of bullshit, buying drugs would be more like going to a chemist than anything else.

Id rant more, but its the internet so its basically like talking to a particularly stubborn wall