Poll: Should homosexuality be considered a criminal offense/act? Also, what's your view on Morality?

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Madara XIII

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Sep 23, 2010
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Sober Thal said:
Madara XIII said:
Pfffft If anything I'd say I'm the essence of what Madara stands for.
So QED: I'm Madara :p

Well I do believe in a Moral Universalism mostly because despite what others say I believe that there can be a universal right and wrong.
After all Murder is still highly frowned upon, not just by certain cultures, but through a humanistic point of view I can see no justification of murder no matter what the situation.

NOTICE how I said Murder. Not Killing
Narutard humor? Madara doesn't stand for himself, nor even a name for himself, he/it stands for the absence of self, kinda like the whole 'human instrumentality' thing, savvy? I might have missed your point entirely, if so, do mind me... just wanted to quote ya since you have that avatar, and the last manga info made your post stick out to me. Not sure what you mean by murder/killing to be honest. I can see no justification of murder no matter what the situation as well.

EDIT: Aww snap, the OP got a major edit (or I was blind for a few minutes).... I need to read more articles.... I missed the whole murder part....
Idk. You do make a valid point on his identity, but he sort of flip-flopped it into his favor now that the cat is out of the bag and the REAL Madara is back.
Guess he really only wants to be nothing more than an instrument for the new world, rather than be known for it.

Secondly to add to my belief on Moral Universalism
I think that there are a few things that mankind can never justify ever.

1.) Murder (Not killing)
2.) Rape (Seriously, who the hell can justify that?)
3.) Racism, Sexism, or any other oppression
 

MoNKeyYy

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Jun 29, 2010
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This question was one major hell of a lot more intelligent than I was expecting.

To answer the questions, in order:

Yes, it is cultural imperialism to some extent. I feel that attempts by western nations to restrict the laws of other countries is at best morally pretentious, at worst outright denying the citizenry of that country to it's right to self determination. For example, yes, perhaps Libyans and Egyptians are showing signs of electing fundamentalist Islamic leader who probably want to enforce Sharia Law. No, the west should not "do something about it", these people spilled their blood so that they could get some self-determination and they got it. What they do with it is their choice, that's the whole idea of self determination.

There is no such thing as absolute morality. The death sentance exists in Western Society, especially the United States, and for that very fact some other countries view western society as being evil, same as we see them as being evil. We see them as being wrong for not allowing homosexuality, they see us as being wrong for allowing it. in reference to the OP by the way, I'm more or less a moral Nihilist, but I'm not really all the way there. Incidentally I'm also a kind of philisophical nihilist, or someone who believe that life is lacking in any inherent worth or purpose, although this is largely irrelevant.

These things said however, I will never agree with killing homosexuals simply by virtue of being, and addmittedly the practice of allowing many to have self determination can resirict the freedoms some. It's true, gays have little to no self determination or freedoms in those countries. Then again, criminals have had most of their rights and self determination restricted in many western countries, so are our laws automatically better than theirs?
 

Bunnymarn

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Oct 8, 2008
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See Spot Run said:
I feel that there is justification for requiring these nations to employ more advanced moral considerations - by force if necessary.
Would force or the money proposal from the US (and UK?) really fix the issue? To me it seems much like throwing a table cloth over a filthy table, then claiming that it's clean. Neither method will fix the issue - which is why these countries/governments, etc, think the way they do. What we should be doing, regardless of culture, is getting people to breakdown the reason why they think about things the way they do - in this case, why they think homosexuality is wrong. So, for example:
"Why is homosexuality wrong?"
"Because it is wrong in the eyes of God"
"Why?"
"Because that's what God decided"
"Why did he decide that? And why does God's opinion matter at all?"
And so on... (that may be a crude example, but I hope it gets the point across).

Eventually, where one would ideally end up is at a set of values or understanding/acceptance of things that can be demonstrated outside of themselves - eg, that earthquakes occur and no amount of individual belief will alter the occurrence of one. Then, for all things that can only be demonstrated at an individual level, you will have to accept that not everyone will hold the same values that you do.

I may have deviated from the OP, but I think it's worth thinking about.
 

OtherSideofSky

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I don't believe in absolute morality and I definitely don't believe morality should have any relation to law.

Laws exist to maintain and protect the social system of which they are a part. They're for keeping things running smoothly, not expressing any kind of universal truth.

My immediate reaction would be to say that laws against homosexuality are a massive waste of resources, but I wouldn't want to say that for sure without a fuller knowledge of the specific situation (possibly these laws address some kind of actual problem which is not immediately apparent).

I suppose that if Western super powers are going to give out a bunch of foreign aid money, there's no reason they shouldn't be giving to people for doing things they like. I mean, they certainly don't have any obligation to give aid money to people they don't agree with.
 

Trippy Turtle

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May 10, 2010
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Homosexuality shouldn't be considered an offence but you shouldn't be able to change other peoples laws.
As for the "wrong in the eyes of god" argument I think its stupid. Religion and other personal beliefs should never affect laws or decide how others should act.
 

Jonluw

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May 23, 2010
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I don't really give a fuck about cultural imperialism.
If the government of a country is systematically hurting - in our eyes - innocent people, it is well within our rights to tell them to fuck off.

You could call it moral darwinism. The morals of the strongest take over. Luckily, which force is the strongest tends to coincide with which force is the most socially developed.

I'm more of a moral relativist, really, but that doesn't mean I accept that other people enforce morals that I find disgusting.
I.e. Morals may be relative, but they're not all equal.
 

Trippy Turtle

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May 10, 2010
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Mortai Gravesend said:
Trippy Turtle said:
Homosexuality shouldn't be considered an offence but you shouldn't be able to change other peoples laws.
As for the "wrong in the eyes of god" argument I think its stupid. Religion and other personal beliefs should never affect laws or decide how others should act.
Amusing. Do tell me, can you find a law NOT based on personal beliefs?

Really I think a law against homosexuality is awful and people should fight against it, but your reasoning for why leaves much to be desired.
I mean personal beliefs based on faith, not common sense. You don't need to have a god tell you killing isn't nice.
 

JoesshittyOs

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Aug 10, 2011
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See Spot Run said:
People in at least one african nation are in danger of being fucking executed for being gay.

I have very little problem with the idea of cultural imperialism for the purposes of preventing the institutionalized murder of thousands.
What this guy said.

Honestly, I have no problem with Western countries "policing" the world when shit like this is still actually happening. It's the reason why I semi-supported the war on terror.
 

7thHanyou

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Jun 7, 2011
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Of course it shouldn't, but as a Christian I do believe it is a sin.

Naturally, I'm a Universalist.

The reason homosexuality should not be outlawed is because we have a right to our own property--which includes our bodies--and can do what we please with it, so long as we do not infringe on another person's rights. Homosexual acts do not infringe on anyone else's rights at all. To prevent them clearly infringes upon the right to property and, by extension, liberty.

Given that I favor a non-interventionist foreign policy, I think most nations should leave well enough alone. This does not make me a moral relativist, just a universalist who does not believe restricting other nations is generally necessary. Given that it is unnecessary and, I think, has the potential to be abused, I'd rather stay away from it.

EDIT: Curious. I see people claiming morals are relative because different moral rubrics are enforced in different cultures. However, the question of whether different people have different opinions about what is moral has no bearing on whether morality is absolute. I can have the opinion, for instance, that the sun revolves around the earth, but that does not make me right.

I just think it's important to keep in mind that an assumption of moral relativism is just that, an assumption, and is not inherently more sound than an assumption of a universal morality.
 

Zack Alklazaris

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Oct 6, 2011
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Why should the question even need to be asked? These are people who have done nothing to hurt another and yet they are executed like they are a child rapist or a murder. This whole idea of treating gays as second class citizens is disgusting and it saddens me that I'm forced to be apart of this history.

I will note that I am against execution in general. I see too many people executed for crimes that while horrific, the people themselves are clearly suffering from a mental disorder. Yes, victims deserve justice, but when the criminal is not in the right state of mind we could learn so much more by trying to help them. Yes there is the insanity plea, but not every person is with a severe mental disorder is considered insane.

But back to the question at hand, now I had to look them up so I may of gotten them wrong. However, based on what I looked up I would go with moral universalism, even though it seems unrealistic.
 

Vykrel

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of course it should not be considered a criminal offense. anyone who votes yes in a serious way is a horrible, horrible person. seriously, this isnt even an opinion. youre just a terrible human being if you believe people should be punished just for being who they are and for doing actions that have literally NO EFFECT on you or anybody else.
 

Astoria

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Oct 25, 2010
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Mortai Gravesend said:
Astoria said:
They can rationalise homosexuality being immoral all they want, it doesn't mean it should be illegal. Religion/morality should have no place when it comes to making laws. Does being gay hurt others? Of course not so it shouldn't be illegal. Laws are meant to keep society intact, not tell people how they should live their lives.
Morals inevitably are involved in law. You think laws should be to keep society intact? Well that's just an expression of your own values. It is even telling people how to live their lives in part. It's telling them they have to live them in a manner conducive to keeping society intact, your desire.
Why else would we have them? And just because we do have them it doesn't mean people have to follow them, people break laws all the time. I also said meant to, most laws I don't think are actually in place for that reason. But if you think about it, things like murder aren't illegal because it's immoral, it's illegal because if people were allowed to kill others they wouldn't be working towards making society work but their own preservation. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with society and how it works but I think that's how it should work. Also, I understand that inevitably morality will influence peoples opinions but I don't think it should be the only reason why they want to make some legal/illegal.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Should Homosexuality be illegal?
No. Making it illegal really isn't going to do any good for anyone, and will cause harm to some.
Is it Cultural Imperialism to blackmail other countries into following this?
Yes. However, so long as no war is declared over this, and nothing is done except removing monetary aid, I do not see a problem with it.
Moral Universalism, Relativism, Nihilism?
Nihilism. Morals are like money. They have absolutely 0 inherent value, only the value we assign to them. Whilst it is seen as morally 'wrong' by most to kill, there is no universal law or fact that says it is wrong. Man believes it is wrong because man does not want to die, and the best way not to die is to make killing 'wrong'.
I don't mind Moral Relativism, since Nihilism is really just a form of that, but I do not agree at all with Moral Universalism.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Astoria said:
Why else would we have them? And just because we do have them it doesn't mean people have to follow them, people break laws all the time. I also said meant to, most laws I don't think are actually in place for that reason. But if you think about it, things like murder aren't illegal because it's immoral, it's illegal because if people were allowed to kill others they wouldn't be working towards making society work but their own preservation. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with society and how it works but I think that's how it should work. Also, I understand that inevitably morality will influence peoples opinions but I don't think it should be the only reason why they want to make some legal/illegal.
You'll actually find that morals are the main driving force behind laws, and for good reason.

If people do not morally agree with a law, they will not follow it. If they do not follow it, what is the point of it? They can't enforce it if nobody believes in it, nobody will help them in it.
If all the people in a country thought killing was the right thing to do, to take your own example, then if a law was there that made it illegal, it would be ignored. As such, to stay in favour with its people, the government would have to reflect their moral views and make killing legal, or else risk becoming a pointless government, listened to by no-one.

Admittedly, there are some governments that will ignore its people and enforce what will make the country better (Or in many cases, their own life better), but these are usually known as dictatorships, and most Westerners see these as bad.
 
Jun 23, 2008
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Regarding cultural imperialism, of course the imposition of the ideals of one culture (in this case, the western supercultural extension of freedom of personal identity to include sexual orientation, social gender and personal religion) would fall under cultural imperialism. The problem here is that cultural imperialism has negative connotations not unlike despotism or polygamy that are by historical association and not necessarily warranted.[footnote]For the uninformed: Despotism, which is simply an extreme form of totalitarianism, is associated with tyranny and corruption, with good cause. But history is not devoid of benevolent monarchs before Napoleonic law, and absolute power allows such royals to rule quickly without interference. Similarly, polygyny and the oppression of women as practiced in some Islamic and Mormon sects has given polygamy a bad name, even though more egalitarian forms exist, generally unacknowledged, such as within the Church of All Worlds.[/footnote]

Sometimes a given culture will actually be better (more advanced) in contrast to another, and the degree to which human rights have been outlined in the Geneva Convention (as per the treatment of refugees) serves a better model than Christianity, Islam or really, any of the Abrahamic sects.[footnote]Note that few western nations rise to the ideal of the Conventions when considering their own citizenship. Women and minorities are still regarded unequally to white (provincial) men, and gays and other sexual minorities still don't have rights even to heterosexuals.[/footnote] Social equality can technically be derived from the ethic of reciprocity, which is both instinctual and universally understood in every culture. But scripture has a way of serving to provide exceptions. It is because of preferential treatment and oppressive social conformity justified by religion (amongst many reasons) that New Atheists assert religion is dangerous, and that scriptural dogma should be regarded with the same scrutiny as are all other sources of truth.

Implementation of human rights is one example in which cultural imperialism actually serves as a benevolent thing. Similarly, the distribution of scholarly resources such as literacy, mathematics and critical thought, and then technological advancements such as modern agriculture. Rome may have been rather elitist, but they did teach other cultures to read and count, and they built fabulous roads and baths, some of which persist to this day. Similarly the wholly Islamic Ottoman empire expanded most of the primary sciences. It was only a cultural movement during the late middle ages that associated mathematics with sorcery that ended that streak.

Ironically, both Christianity and Islam thrived on periods of cultural expansionism, themselves. Missionaries still walk the earth to convert heathens who don't know any better, so it's amusing (to me, at least) that anyone would accuse the now secularist aspects of the west from interfering with either traditions, what were both invasive cultures, themselves. But it's not personal. We fight against gender inequality in Hindu culture with no less fervor than we do in Mosaic and Shariah ones.

Regarding the debate between moral universalism in contrast to moral relativism, I cannot say I understand one from the other, as when I've heard arguments (usually from religious debaters) I've never understood a one. I presume this is related to the issue between utilitarianism (action based on intended consequences) versus deontological ethics (action according to duty, regardless of consequences). Both philosophies come with paradox, and I figure that we consider both in our day-to-day lives, with neither being more right or wrong than the other.

I've noticed that some theists (I hesitate to call them theologians for whom I have more respect) tend to push the argument that there is only a single, absolute, universal morality, with the implication that it's by their god and their scripture. And, for that matter, their interpretation of how that scripture is to be read.

238U
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Tselis said:
All they are trying to do is to stop people from being executed for being attracted to the same sex as they are. I don't believe in CI, because variety is the spice of live. That being said, I also don't believe that it should be a criminal offense to love someone that society deems 'wrong' for you to love. What you do on you own time is for you alone, so long as it is between consenting adults. Honestly, humanity as a whole needs to stop being so fucking nosey. I pose these two questions to all of you who feel homosexuality should be criminalized, and that it is wrong in the eyes of God; 1)How does it hurt you (physically, finalcially, tangibly) for two men, or two women to have sex, and if it doesn't why are you so worked up about it? 2)How do you know what is and isn't 'wrong' in the eyes of God, do you have a direct line (ala Bat phone) to heaven, if not, then how do you honestly know? (And no, you may not point to a moldy, 2000 year old text that has been retranslated and edited so many times that we don't actually know what the original said. Or did you not know why it's called the King James' version?) Okay, so maybe that was more than two, but whatever ..
what you said is all well and good, except one part. " you may not point to a moldy, 2000 year old text that has been retranslated and edited so many times that we don't actually know what the original said. Or did you not know why it's called the King James' version". You do realize that Jews don't necessarily use the same "text" as Christians, right? Also this site [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh2.htm] touches on the subject, but what is most important is at the end where Rabbi Gershon Caudill writes that

"Jews do not obligate any other religion to the observance of the Torah laws, which were given specifically to the Jewish people and their descendants, including converts. This is with the possible exception of the seven Noahide Laws, and there is dispute among the halakhic authorities as to which seven laws non-Jews need observe IF they are indeed required to observe any Torah laws at all."

Here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah] are the laws that the rabbi mentioned that gentiles much follow to be considered good [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_toshav].

So seeing as African's are gentiles, they should just chill out, because from a Jewish perspective such laws don't apply to them, only us.
 

michiehoward

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Apr 18, 2010
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No.

And why any country today would still try to interfere with what two consenting adults do in privacy astounds me. Its a waste of valuable resources for any country to divert resources to a oppressive political stand.


Moral universalism