Poll: Should Link be female in the next Lengend Of Zelda

[The Heik]

Well you did say "the character" as if there is only one individual Link. You talk of changing a character ruining the narrative. Everything you said acted as if Link was one character in an overarcing story across all the Zelda games. You even talked of "genderbending" which is taking one individual of one gender and changing aspects till they are somewhat like another gender. Not a different character of a different gender in the same role. That's not gender bending.

Well actually the word character is still primarily based around the concept of the "characteristics" of an individual, rather than the specific person themselves. It's why people simply say "Iron Man" or "Robin" when referring to them in general, because unless you're speaking of an event done in a specific timeline/continuity, they all have maintain the fundamental traits of said character. And considering how consistent the various iterations of Link have been you could pretty much interchange them and lose almost nothing from the narrative perspective.

As for the genderbending, it seems I have dun goof'd. Was using the wrong terminology for what I meant (shows how much you can know about a language, and yet screw up anyways ). Assume from here on in that it was more along the lines of Rule 63 (As in changing a character's gender just because), as that would be a more apt description of what I was trying to get across. My apologies on the miscommunication of mine.

"But what you need to understand is that the culturally perceived character of Link has been of him as a young boy"

Didn't stop them deciding to have him as a young man in other games.

Yeah but to be fair, biological maturation at least has a linear progression (as opposed to "spontaneously" growing a vagina a la Tripitaka from Enslaved)

Look, the people are too attached to the idea that Link must arbitrarily be a male. There is no reason to it, it is because it is because it is because it is because it is!

"Now of course you can make Link female, but unless you have a good narrative reason why Link should be female"

I've given it enough times, it's been ignored many more times.

The Link role is the chosen one for whoever is courageous enough to rise up and save their land of Hyrule. That doesn't exclude girls and half of Hyrule children born would be girls so a female Link is in the waiting.

Now why can't a girl be courageous enough to take up the Link role?

Simple: because if all you're doing just trading out a guy for a girl, then you're not really changing enough to make it worth altering the face of gaming identity (refer to paragraph 2 of the next section for details on that)

Ok, you didn't introduce the role-models aspect earlier. On stapling penises.

But I don't agree with the role-model idea for gaming characters for how it can go both ways when it clealry doesnt'. Because quite simply playing as Agent 47 isn't a role-model for me to do garrotting security guards, equally Samus is not a role model for me being a noble bounty hunter. What they are are interesting and compelling characters in complete fantasy worlds. They can tell the stories of nice good people, or those of cruel evil people, but they don't imbue their values on us.

There are subtitles to Metroid and Samus, some of overlooked and they are largely in the feel and theme of the games, it's in the music, the pacing, the sense of isolation rather than simply it being a sparsely populated game.

I think you missing at fundamental aspect of role models. Characters are more often defined by how they do things rather than what they do. When you play as Agent 47, you're not simply garroting a bunch or random dudes. You're learning how to be methodical in your actions, to be precise and utilize everything at your disposal to it fullest to execute the mission flawlessly. When you play as Samus, you "live" as the brave and calm heroine who faces off hordes of enemies with finesse and style. Because you play these characters, you pseudo-become them, knowing what it feels like to be that by proxy, and you learn and grow because of it. While other aspects of a game are certainly important, the characters are the lynchpin of it. They are the lens by with you see this the game world, and they are usually the most well remembered because they are the player's means of expression within that continuity. Think about how upset Metroid fans were about Other M, where a previously confident and controlled Samus was turned into a dumb, spineless Daddy's girl. The fans were more hurt by just that than by any other the other boneheaded narrative and gameplay issues that the game had (And it had a LOT of them)

And that's where Link kind of stands. After 25 years of Zelda games, Link has become a cultural icon. He has literally been one of the first male role models for kids in their gaming lives for 2 whole generations. He has been their first taste at being the hero, saving the world, of being brave and strong, rather than just seeing it in other people.

Now let me note that I personally think the idea of a female Link is a novel concept, but there simply is not enough narrative power available to modify such a fundamental cultural landmark, especially for so little change. And more importantly, rather than try and changing something so ironclad (and uproot quite a bit of the gaming community's identity), why not simply choose another character with which you can explore Hyrule? Heck, I believe the Escapist's Editor-in-Chief Susan Arendt had the clever idea of using Zelda as a the main character in her own game. In truth, this would be a far more ideal prospect. Not only would it subvert many of the more negative aspects of her portrayals (the Princess-peach like kidnappings, some of the more overtly feminine traits etc) but it would help her grow as her own character. Then the Zelda universe would have two consistent characters by which to explore the aspects of heroism from either side of gender, without having to sacrifice consistency by constantly switching one back and forth.

 

[The Heik]

His first response is some ridiculous semantic tangential argument that proves absolutely nothing.

It proves the only thing I said it to prove: that words mean things. If he talks about Link in the singular rather than the plural sense, then he is, by definition, talking about Link as a single being. If he's talking about Link in a plural sense, then I do not understand what purpose is served by having multiple characters if all the characters are required to be identical.

I refer thee to post #343, paragraph 1 in regards to why I used the word "character"

 

[Atmos Duality]

Does changing Link's gender change anything critical about the character?
If yes, maybe it will useful to explore some new concepts...
*snickers* Who the fuck am I kidding? This is Zelda.
The gameplay concepts might change a bit from title to title, but the characterization isn't going to budge a damn inch.

Unless the next game somehow breaks away from the tried-and-true Zelda formula (hint: it won't) this doesn't matter. At all.

Link's gender is significant maybe...twice in the entire series?
Apart from getting a kiss from Princess Zelda or that creepy scene about marriage with Ruto in OoT, it's never really much of an issue. Just a Find-Replace from He/His/Him to She/Hers/Her.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

While I think a game actually played as Zelda would be great, I don't think a gender-swapped Link would work.

1. The characterization in the LoZ games is so weak that the characters' physical appearances are very important, because that's mostly what they convey their personalities through.

2. I don't think most fans are deep enough in Zelda lore to really fully grasp the multi-Link theory with how much time they usually invest in setting up the story in those games (mostly they set up the world, and rely on the beautiful simplicity of their characters to speak for themselves)

3. Honestly, I think many people that play LoZ games are looking to get just a continuation of the last game, so its same items, same characters, but new locales and new bosses. Mess with the core of that too much (meaning the basic story arch and characters) and suddenly it's not what many people were looking for.

 

[cookyt]

I wouldn't be dead set against it, but link has always been male in the past, so it would be an odd change. That said, there is almost nothing which says Link must be male in the established games, and you could probably play through some of the games with the assumption that Link is female, and nothing would be lost. The idea also works pretty well with the whole reincarnation theme the games have. Still, why not just make a game about Zelda if you're dead set on a female protagonist?

Here's an idea, have a game with a female Link and male Zelda, and reveal that, due to some odd mix-up, the player character is actually the standard (female) Zelda, and the person in the castle is Link.

Corny? Probably.
Mildly amusing? Definitely.

 

[Do4600]

The real question is; "Should Samus Aran be a man in the next Metriod game?"

The answer to both questions should be: NO

The reason this shouldn't happen is because it would simply be a huge gaff for gender politics. Which is great if your some sort of activist that has an interest in such things, terrible if your a gaming company.

It wouldn't even be a good gaff either, if somebodies idea of an empowered woman is Dirty Harry with boobs, it's very much a flawed one because you're saying that women can't be empowered unless they are Clint Eastwood or take on some of his "ideal" traits.

What we should be asking for is just better female characters and more of them.

 

[Agent Cross]

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SNIP

Okay you two. I've watched this thread go to ten pages. This whole topic has just turned into an arguement instead of a an actual discussion (Not between you two. You both seem to agree). So let me turn this back into discusion.

First, there are two things we need to establish before we can move any further along.

1) Role: Hero of Time

2) Character: Link

Can we agree that these two points are consistent with the lore/canon of LoZ?

 

[BakedZnake]

I would laugh if nintendo make Link androgynous in the next game, hell make him look like Boy George be hilarious

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Inserting myself into this is probably a mistake but what the hell:
I do believe you misunderstood something here:
It was never said that "GIRLS COULD NOT SWORPLAY CUZ GUURRRLLLZZ ARE TEH WEAKERST CREATUREZ EVAAAA11!!!11!" or anything even aluding to that, but rather that Susan Arendt envisioned a Legend of Zelda in which Link injured himself and his LITTLE cousin would have to take over for him.
There is a keyword in the above sentence:
It's "little" as in "small" as in probably physically incabaple of wielding an adult sized sword, which would make for new and interesting gameplay.
The girl which Arendt envisioned taking over after Link was simply a small child, which would be unable to lift the Mastersword not because she was a girl, but because she was a small child.
If you question this, go ahead and give a 5 year old a longsword and see how long he/she manages to swing that thing around in a controlled manner.

I've addressed this already.

She (should) know well enough that male Link in most of the Legend of Zelda games was a little boy yet more than capable of all sorts of combat, swords and shields and everything. So that's a case where she (should) knows little boy Link can use swords, but asserted little girl Link couldn't.

Long swords aren't the only swords. It's a well loved trope in fantasy adventures of diminutive hero with diminutive weapon. The Hobbit and their sword that's really a just a long dagger.

So, the hero would have to be "healed" before embarking on his quest, because the handicap would make it impossible for him to succeed is what you are saying?
So playing as a handicapped is ok as long as the handicap gets "better" because "magic"?
What you are saying is essentiually that the "ailment" of a handicapped needs to be "cured" before he/she can be successful?
You would not be interested in playing a blind Link?
Or a deaf one?
Suit yourself.

And let's rather make that "Coach CalibanButcher" (clever by the way to mangle my name, I almost did not recognize myself) who trains the young hero and encourages him/her to go further and further, so that in the end, Link does not need to be "healed" in order to succeed.
Would make for a far more interesting game...

Yes, healed or otherwise enabled, just as the swords and magic have always enabled Link in the Zelda games.

It would be impossible for any of the Links to proceed without many many other aids they do get from magic boots to hookshots. There is no contradiction at all in a disabled person enabling themselves by any means they can, be it by prosthesis or reversal of the condition. There is nothing wrong with someone with paralysed limbs either using a wheelchair, or undergoing some surgery to restore motor control to their legs.

I don't see what you are getting at here.

Are you seriously objecting to the idea of a disabled person making efforts to enable themselves so they can go above and beyond what everyone else was prepared to do?

Then let's get to it once more:
1. The Longsword:
I used "give them a longsword and see what happens" because as far as I know, the Mastersword is usually a longsword, thus making it very hard for a 5 year old to wield, which is why I stated that Link's hypothetical cousin, a 5 year old girl, would probably not be able to wield the Mastersword, a longsword designed for use by adults.
Of course she could use other weaponry, but unless we have a sudden growth spurt again, the Mastersword would not be a viable weapon. Has nothing to do with gender and more with "5 year olds can not wield longswords".

2. In order to clarify:
I did never say that I object to a disabled person making an effort to enable themselves.
However, I do object to the use of "magic" to cure them.
Since if magic can simply heal them, why would they start out disabled?
There would not be growth involved, you would not have to change the gameplay to suit the hero's conditon, nothing would change at all. The hero would not have to overcome any odds or defy expectations since, in a world where such magic exists, everyone would expect him to get better.
Now if you were to implement my "blind-hero" idea and actually changed the gameplay, then you would play a hero who, despite being disabled, could overcome the odds and surpass the expectations of others, whilst also freshening up the gameplay.
But "magic and poof, disability gone" would not make for an interesting game, nor would it lend the disability any wheight.

 

[Kaossdemon]

A spinoff sure, but I don't think the people at Nintendo would go through the trouble of changing Link's sex, thinking of a good reason to do so (and prevent it from turning into a soap opera) and keep the story canon.

 

[Servbot 24]

I'm sure that as much as some people on the Internet would love to see their fanfiction dreams come true, having Link be female is unnecessary.

Why not make a game using Zelda as the protag instead??

 

[Treblaine]

Well actually the word character is still primarily based around the concept of the "characteristics" of an individual, rather than the specific person themselves...


Yeah but to be fair, biological maturation at least has a linear progression (as opposed to "spontaneously" growing a vagina a la Tripitaka from Enslaved)

There you are AGAIN contradicting what you *claim* you meant, you are talking of "growing a vagina" as if there is ONE individual that must undergo some sort of sex change.

Rather than the ACTUAL Zelda lore where half the time the protagonist is a COMPLETELY NEW individual, new from birth.

Simple: because if all you're doing just trading out a guy for a girl, then you're not really changing enough to make it worth altering the face of gaming identity (refer to paragraph 2 of the next section for details on that)

It does have a purpose, it shows that females can be heroic, courageous and fight for their land.

I think you missing at fundamental aspect of role models. Characters are more often defined by how they do things rather than what they do. When you play as Agent 47, you're not simply garroting a bunch or random dudes. You're learning how to be methodical in your actions, to be precise and utilize everything at your disposal to it fullest to execute the mission flawlessly. When you play as Samus, you "live" as the brave and calm heroine who faces off hordes of enemies with finesse and style. Because you play these characters, you pseudo-become them, knowing what it feels like to be that by proxy, and you learn and grow because of it. While other aspects of a game are certainly important, the characters are the lynchpin of it. They are the lens by with you see this the game world, and they are usually the most well remembered because they are the player's means of expression within that continuity. Think about how upset Metroid fans were about Other M, where a previously confident and controlled Samus was turned into a dumb, spineless Daddy's girl. The fans were more hurt by just that than by any other the other boneheaded narrative and gameplay issues that the game had (And it had a LOT of them)

And that's where Link kind of stands. After 25 years of Zelda games, Link has become a cultural icon. He has literally been one of the first male role models for kids in their gaming lives for 2 whole generations. He has been their first taste at being the hero, saving the world, of being brave and strong, rather than just seeing it in other people.

Now let me note that I personally think the idea of a female Link is a novel concept, but there simply is not enough narrative power available to modify such a fundamental cultural landmark, especially for so little change. And more importantly, rather than try and changing something so ironclad (and uproot quite a bit of the gaming community's identity), why not simply choose another character with which you can explore Hyrule? Heck, I believe the Escapist's Editor-in-Chief Susan Arendt had the clever idea of using Zelda as a the main character in her own game. In truth, this would be a far more ideal prospect. Not only would it subvert many of the more negative aspects of her portrayals (the Princess-peach like kidnappings, some of the more overtly feminine traits etc) but it would help her grow as her own character. Then the Zelda universe would have two consistent characters by which to explore the aspects of heroism from either side of gender, without having to sacrifice consistency by constantly switching one back and forth.

"He has literally been one of the first male role models for kids"

Why add the "male" in there? He is a role model to both boys and girls, but the deliberate exclusion of any girl ever being the Hero of Hyrule sends a damning message.

The series lore HAS established that there are often new individuals who will rise to become heroes, saying it could never be a girl is a pretty douche move. It's one thing if it's one person who is the hero who "just so happens" to be male, but if over and over again you have a completely new individual saying it could come from any of the Hyrule commoners... yet it could never be a woman... that's simply a sexist representation. It's saying a man will always be superior in heroic qualities.

You don't see the narrative power of a woman proving she isn't as weak and useless as men think they are? Being accepted for their achievements to spite all the sexism against them? And isn't that a double standard, what is the narrative power in the next hero of Zelda being a dude? Why do you need an active narrative purpose for one but not the other?

"why not simply choose another character with which you can explore Hyrule?"

Because if you chose another character to explore Hyrule THEN IT WOULD DE FACTO BECOME LINK!

Because that has ALREADY been done! Link in Twilight Prince, that Link is a completely different character from Ocarina of Time or Wind Waker.

Ok, how about this, the game starts with a girl adventurer and when it comes to the name-select state there is no initial prompt to type "Link" you can put any name you like. Because that's the way it's been for a WHILE except with a prompt to enter "Link". The hero is never usually given one single name, just heavily hints that you should go by the name "Link". And Wind Waker makes clear that the attire of green tunic is simply traditional for adventurers to wear.

Or are you saying that IF a girl were to go adventuring in Hyrule, then she would be forbidden from wearing the iconic green tunic of adventurers?

"I believe the Escapist's Editor-in-Chief Susan Arendt..."

But she's established that she doesn't know much about Zelda games. I don't doubt her authority as an editor but on this subject what insight have we had? So why cite her authority?

Yes, to an outsider Zelda may seem like a good choice. But that's from a lack of understanding/appreciation of the Zelda lore.

captcha (I kid you not): weakest link

 

[Treblaine]

SNIP

SNIP

Okay you two. I've watched this thread go to ten pages. This whole topic has just turned into an arguement instead of a an actual discussion (Not between you two. You both seem to agree). So let me turn this back into discusion.

First, there are two things we need to establish before we can move any further along.

1) Role: Hero of Time

2) Character: Link

Can we agree that these two points are consistent with the lore/canon of LoZ?

Hero of Time is a title first bestowed to the protagonist of Ocarina of Time. But figuratively it has been applied in poetic terms to other protagonists though most have different official accolades. Like Link in Wind Waker is bestowed with the title of Hero of the Winds.

Link is not exactly a fixed title. Remember every game you have the "name select" and "Link" is already entered heavily hinting that you should chose that as your name, but really you can chose any name you like and the game will auto-fill in whatever name you chose. This is one reason why the games for so long had characters speaking elvish gibberish, it was easy to add this substitute name in.

Link it seems is a popular adopted name that adventurers go by. Like how in DC Comics universe there have been different individuals who chose the "Robin" name and role.

It's very well established that the Zelda games are in canon with each other, yet the hero (often going by the name "Link") is often not the same individual from previous games.

 

[Treblaine]

Then let's get to it once more:
1. The Longsword:
I used "give them a longsword and see what happens" because as far as I know, the Mastersword is usually a longsword, thus making it very hard for a 5 year old to wield, which is why I stated that Link's hypothetical cousin, a 5 year old girl, would probably not be able to wield the Mastersword, a longsword designed for use by adults.
Of course she could use other weaponry, but unless we have a sudden growth spurt again, the Mastersword would not be a viable weapon. Has nothing to do with gender and more with "5 year olds can not wield longswords".

2. In order to clarify:
I did never say that I object to a disabled person making an effort to enable themselves.
However, I do object to the use of "magic" to cure them.
Since if magic can simply heal them, why would they start out disabled?
There would not be growth involved, you would not have to change the gameplay to suit the hero's conditon, nothing would change at all. The hero would not have to overcome any odds or defy expectations since, in a world where such magic exists, everyone would expect him to get better.
Now if you were to implement my "blind-hero" idea and actually changed the gameplay, then you would play a hero who, despite being disabled, could overcome the odds and surpass the expectations of others, whilst also freshening up the gameplay.
But "magic and poof, disability gone" would not make for an interesting game, nor would it lend the disability any wheight.

Master Sword was introduced in A Link the The Past, where Link is pre-pubescent and uses the Master Sword to its full ability. He also used it in Wind Waker where he was unmistakably only 8 or 9 years old.

And Link hasn't always used the Master Sword anyway, he didn't in Majora's Mask, nor when he was a young in Ocarina of Time.

"However, I do object to the use of "magic" to cure them."

That's a pointless objection, it's no significant difference from advanced surgery we have today to the results of magic. In medieval ere they'd call it magic to successfully transplant someone's hand to an amputee who lost their hand, yet that is precisely what is being done today.

"why would they start out disabled?"

I told you already.

And it was YOU who made this demand from how "anyone could become hero of Hyrule if they were courageous enough".

But the many heroes of LoZ always had more than courage, they bettered themselves by tools and by magic.

I don't know why you are going on this tangent about how a disabled protagonist must result in unique gameplay around the disability, that is completely off topic from the issue of "Can a girl be a fantasy hero in a Zelda game".

I don't understand your assertion that they cannot better themselves to spite all the other heroes using magic to better themselves, when Zelda has so well established mechanisms that make the character more capable, it is no contraction nor break from the formula for a disabled Link to become physically more capable so that he can continue his quest.

 

[Lethos]

If you'd just read a few of the posts before posting...

We have discussed all this so much, you can gain so much more by reading before posting and could probably post some more relevant of your insight.

I mean you talks as if there is only one character of Link that would have to be changed, rather than the actual case where almost every Zelda game released the Link is a completely new character.

And the idea that this is trying to be "progressive" (hasn't Fox News made that a dirty word) rather than how the Link Mythos inevitably leads to a hero rising from the population who is courageous enough, 50% of the pool is female, it's becoming increasingly likely that the next Hero of Hyrule will be female.

But that's for the opportunity to summarise.

When I see the same people quoting each other for 3+ pages, I really can't muster up the will to get involved in that argument.

I have no idea if Fox News has made the word progressive dirty, I don't live in the USA :S
I had no idea that each new Link is a new character though. In that case then that means that it's compatible with my previous comment where I said that I would be fine with it as long as they weren't just changing Link's gender for the sake of it.

 

[JimB]

I am comparing your justification of "This is how we do it, and the fact that we do it this way is sufficient reason to not have to analyze why we do it or open ourselves to the possibility of change" to the first example of the same thing I was reminded of in order to illustrate how contemptible I find it. I often speak in metaphor. It's a bad habit of mine.

I never said anything like that. At all. Go back and re-read my post.

When "This is how it's always done" is your defense, you are implicitly arguing that it is self-justifying. That might not be your intent, but there's no way to say those words without that being a component.

I swear to god, you just look at a select few words of posts and freak out about shit.

Freak out? This is just me mildly annoyed. You'd love my freak-outs.

You blew it way out of context and started babbling about the Dark Ages.

When you're advocating for cant, the Dark Ages was the closest comparison to my mind; and I do like the low-hanging fruits. Saves me the effort of getting a ladder.

Okay, there's the knight in shining armor/damsel in distress theme[...]

So why can't the knight be female? If you're fighting to keep the roles traditional because that's the way it's always done, aren't you effectively saying that you want to hear the same story over and over with as little variation as possible?

[...]and there's the constant aesthetic consistency of the main character.

A theme is a topic of discourse or an idea. I can't reconcile that definition with the idea that physical appearance is a theme.

There's the bounce around from beta male to alpha male (and sometimes gamma male) in the different games in the series (Wind Waker, Ocarina of Time [Adult], and Twilight Princess, respectively). This even happens within some of the games... mainly Ocarina of Time.

So why can't a female character improve her station?

I could keep going.

I wish you would have, because your original claim was that "a lot" of themes are damaged by Link's boobs. You provided three. I find it suspicious.

I used a funny word... nice straw man, bro!

Oh, so when I make an absurd comparison of Link's sex to religiously enforced medical incompetence costing thousands of people their lives, that's not funny, that's babbling; but when you make an absurd comparison of Link's sex to a crime, it's funny. Heh.

That's probably because you seem to have the worst sense of storytelling concepts of anyone I've ever met.

And you'd rather make attacks than offer points.

In works of fiction, "lead" is loosely used to refer to the characters who are highlighted the most.

I don't think I can support that definition when the fiction is interactive and the vessel for interaction is an avatar character; the medium reduces the other characters to something more akin to plot devices than to leads. But thank you for answering the question.

The thing is that being a male in a green tunic, and cap, with a sword is what makes Link who he is.

I thought being worthy of the Triforce of Courage makes Link who he is, not what's hanging in his closet. I mean, damn, if I'd known all it takes to be the Hero of Time was jockey shorts, a long shirt, a windsock, and a sharp stick, I'd have gotten in on that action a long time ago.

Hell, it sounds like what you want is a game where you can play as Zelda.

I'm not categorically opposed to the idea, but given what I've seen of attempts to make the female quest trophy into a playable character (play as Peach and defeat the villains with the power of PMS-fueled emotions! Play as Peach in seven cut scenes, six of which she gets naked for!), I have more faith in a female Link than a protagonist Zelda.

You won't get your strong female[...]

I reject your belief that it is categorically impossible for a female Link to serve exactly the same role male Link does.

[...]and after ~25+ years of the same main character, I'll be forced to change the way I think of him (I really don't want to do that...I like Link a LOT as a character).

So it's an either-or choice where only one of us gets to be happy? Sorry, man, but I do not have a whole lot of martyrdom in me, and I'm not likely to pick your happiness at the expense of my own without being much better friends with you that we currently are.

Good strong female leads don't have to be converted from good strong male leads.

You know, you keep bringing up "good" and "strong" as character descriptions when I'm pretty sure I never mentioned those things. I don't really consider Link a character at all; just an avatar with barely any history or personality beyond what the player projects onto him (admittedly, this has been less true in the last three games or so). I would like a female avatar because I have been projecting onto "boy gets magic penis extension* and dickwaves wizard to death" since like 1985. I'm ready for a change.


*EDIT FOR CLARITY: I'm being hyperbolic on the penis extension thing. Sometimes a sword is just a sword.

 

[Treblaine]

If you'd just read a few of the posts before posting...

We have discussed all this so much, you can gain so much more by reading before posting and could probably post some more relevant of your insight.

I mean you talks as if there is only one character of Link that would have to be changed, rather than the actual case where almost every Zelda game released the Link is a completely new character.

And the idea that this is trying to be "progressive" (hasn't Fox News made that a dirty word) rather than how the Link Mythos inevitably leads to a hero rising from the population who is courageous enough, 50% of the pool is female, it's becoming increasingly likely that the next Hero of Hyrule will be female.

But that's for the opportunity to summarise.

When I see the same people quoting each other for 3+ pages, I really can't muster up the will to get involved in that argument.

I have no idea if Fox News has made the word progressive dirty, I don't live in the USA :S
I had no idea that each new Link is a new character though. In that case then that means that it's compatible with my previous comment where I said that I would be fine with it as long as they weren't just changing Link's gender for the sake of it.

"I had no idea that each new Link is a new character though."

Most of them

Ocarina of time: new character
Majora's Mask: same

Wind Waker: new character
Phantom Hourglass: same
Spirit Tracks: same

Twilight Princess: new character

Skyward Sword: new character

 

[JimB]

First, there are two things we need to establish before we can move any further along.

1) Role: Hero of Time

2) Character: Link

Can we agree that these two points are consistent with the lore/canon of Legend of Zelda?

I can only agree to this cautiously, since I'm not sure if you're laying the groundwork for further argumentation or are just setting a trap. My agreement comes with the proviso that you and I may have extremely different ideas about what "Hero of Time" and "Link" mean.

(Also, I'm not married to the Hero of Time aspect. My favorite Zelda game is the one where he was the Hero of Winds, not Hero of Time.)

 

[Agent Cross]

SNIP

SNIP

Okay you two. I've watched this thread go to ten pages. This whole topic has just turned into an arguement instead of a an actual discussion (Not between you two. You both seem to agree). So let me turn this back into discusion.

First, there are two things we need to establish before we can move any further along.

1) Role: Hero of Time

2) Character: Link

Can we agree that these two points are consistent with the lore/canon of LoZ?

Hero of Time is a title first bestowed to the protagonist of Ocarina of Time. But figuratively it has been applied in poetic terms to other protagonists though most have different official accolades. Like Link in Wind Waker is bestowed with the title of Hero of the Winds.

Link is not exactly a fixed title. Remember every game you have the "name select" and "Link" is already entered heavily hinting that you should chose that as your name, but really you can chose any name you like and the game will auto-fill in whatever name you chose. This is one reason why the games for so long had characters speaking elvish gibberish, it was easy to add this substitute name in.

Link it seems is a popular adopted name that adventurers go by. Like how in DC Comics universe there have been different individuals who chose the "Robin" name and role.

It's very well established that the Zelda games are in canon with each other, yet the hero (often going by the name "Link") is often not the same individual from previous games.

I can agree with that. That fact still stands though, Link is the default name. It's openly stated in instruction manuals that his name is "Link" (Just by glancing through my TP and Skyward Sword manuals). Still, that has nothing to do with the point I wish to make. And I use canon and lore almost interchangeably because it took Nintendo over ten games to finally establish some sort of canon.

In ten pages, one easily missed point has been glossed over. To me it's the only problem I can really see that mucks up this whole argument. The word "Hero".


he·ro [heer-oh](heroine is always used for females)

1. A man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

2. A person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

3. The principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

This is where you're running into a major problem. The word "Hero" immediately brings to mind "Male". If someone asked you to name a hero, you wouldn't say. Joan of Arc. The mere mention of the word disassociates "Link" from being female. So it is engrained into our minds to whom exactly Link is.

Once the phrase "Hero of Time" was introduced, all incarnations (not reincarnations, he hardly ever knows about that until he's told anyways) were set in stone to be a male. Which isn't bad. There really doesn't need to be a "Link" though as the title character. There are lots of ways to make a great female lead without destroying what has been established. I've read plenty of interesting posts on different ways to do this. And I can't say that anybody would entirely disagree with bringing a "new" female into the game. It's really a good idea, but changing the legendary "Hero" into another gender just isn't satisfactory.

IMO, gender swapping would just be a meh. It's to cheesy and simple (which might be an even bigger problem). I would prefer a more unique and interesting way. God knows the franchise could use a touch of that.