Poll: Should National Service be introduced

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sneakypenguin

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
sneakypenguin said:
As far as taxation goes it is if you think about it nothing more than theft. I'm forced to pay (under penalty of jail/loss of property) for things I do not and will not use. Why is it required that I pay for a bailout of a company that made stupid choices?
Because if that company fails, you'll lose more wealth when the economy crashes and reduces the value of your assets than you will by paying taxes to bail them out.

In other words, if you've got ten dollars today and shoes cost five dollar, you can buy two pairs of shoes. But then if the bank collapses and disrupts the economy because you don't want to pay the five dollars in taxes, tomorrow shoes will cost eleven dollars.

So if you pay taxes, you wind up with shoes. If you don't: no shoes.

Is it fair that a bank collapsing can disrupt the economy like that? No. Is it reality? Yes. Should the laws be structured so that nothing can ever get too big to fail like that? Yes. Were they? No--thanks to, coincidentally enough, the kind of people who are against taxes.

sneakypenguin said:
As for the FDA I could file that under a judicial or legal entity and justify it though my "rights of the individual" (right to life/health) not to mention it's wouldn't require a huge budget. Plus every individual benefits (if you eat).

Okay modified idea, flat rate sales tax. IE just a say 10% tax on everything, if you use gas 10% tax for roads, food 10% for FDA. Plus 10% on other new items to fund judicial/military.
This would be a "just" tax in that you don't pay for something you don't use. Like I said exploratory idea based on idealism on my part :p
It's an interesting idea--it reminds me of Workers Compensation: you pay for your impact on society.
Regarding bailouts why do I not become a shareholder why can it not be a loan that will be repaid to me? The gov owns 70+ percent of GM if GM ever pays that back I will never see a dime of it, rather it will be new money and congress will say hey we have a new X billion dollars coming back what to spend it on? I can understand maintaining a stability in the financial system(though I would like to become a direct preferred shareholder(or bondholder)
but if GM goes out yeah thousands lose their job but that pain is necessary we can try to keep all car companies in business struggling along or we can let one go under and have that 20% of the market GM holds be filled by ford or toyota or honda. One of those companies will have to ramp up production somewhere yeah it sucks bigtime that people lost their job and yeah detroit will be a wasteland but we can't keep dying industries afloat just to prolong their eventual death.(at least with my money:p
 

similar.squirrel

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What, conscription?
No. The people directing you may be morally ambiguous. Sure, give people who've served certain benefits [college grants and so forth], but don't introduce conscription.
Arming the yob culture is probably a crappy idea, too.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here?
 

sneakypenguin

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
sneakypenguin said:
Regarding bailouts why do I not become a shareholder why can it not be a loan that will be repaid to me? The gov owns 70+ percent of GM if GM ever pays that back I will never see a dime of it, rather it will be new money and congress will say hey we have a new X billion dollars coming back what to spend it on?
Then elect a congress that will give you that money back.

Your argument is no longer about stealing, it's about the inefficiency of politics now. Different argument. Not necessarily wrong, but now you've gone from "taxes for Purpose A are theft" to "taxes for Purpose A *which are spent incorrectly* are theft"
Yeah i've jumped from my idealist view to my realist view :p (for the moment anyway). I've done my best to advocate for candidates that will give my money back (and spend less of it) but in this country you cannot overcome the sheer amount of political apathy. (that and with winner take all only the 2 dominate parties can achieve any success, except in rare cases).

Idealistic view I still think it's stealing money from me (to fund cause A).
Realistically they will take it anyway so i'll at least advocate some measure of "fairness" and control of spending(in funding cause A).
 

Raregolddragon

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MarcusMang said:
I think we also run into one very big problem. Most American kids are fatties. I weight 265 currently (1/3 muscle 2/3 pudding) and if the draft was reinstated right now, I would not be able to serve even if I wanted to. Although I wouldn't mind having a desk job for the military.
No I am sure you would make decent canon fodder or a nice big meat shield. Congratulations your in Bad Company.
 

Zacharine

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sneakypenguin said:
Gun control would be unjust, my having a gun in no way effects you, to take away the right to a firearm would be to arbitrarily remove a freedom based solely on a projected fear. Granted my right to that firearm ends when I threaten another individual with it(without need)
However, who decided in the first place that you have the right to the firearm? Who set the default position to 'owning a firearm' instead of 'not owning a firearm'? In addition, if no control system is in place, what guarantee do I have that you can use the gun you own safely, you store it properly (so that the kids from next door can't get to it and shoot my windows off) and that you are not a certified maniac just released from prison? The gun control laws 'at my country anyways' make sure that in most likelyhood, if you own a gun you know how to use it properly, the police have checked out your background and you are aware of proper safety instruction and proper use of the firearm. I.e. I don't have to worry about some nutjob on the street pulling out a gun on me if he doesn't like the way I glanced at him.

Not having gun control laws would be a safety issue.

Job security laws(i take it that you mean workplace safety laws) can be an affront to individual freedom, you can look at many many stupid OSHA rules to see that. But a law that protects an individuals right to life and wellbeing could be seen as justified in that they protect the individual.
So you can accept laws that increase safety at the cost of individual freedom. Since individual freedom isn't you #1 qualifier for acceptable laws, I wonder why you are so much against national service?

Besides, individual freedom isn't always a good thing. Why? Because people are stupid and ignorant. Maximizing an individuals freedom would mean anarchy and chaos, because there would not be any laws. Without law there is no order. All laws set limits to freedoms and humanity needs to be governed. Whenever there is anarchy, humans establish some kind of ordered system of ruling in short order.

A successful government simply walks a tight rope between people's freedoms and laws to create order.

The traffic laws do not infringe on the rights of the individual because my right to drive like I want ends when that poses a threat to your right to live/safety
But they do infringe on your rights to drive backwards and steering with your toes. But that is the point. The laws themselves deside what freedoms are given to you, there is no universal quantifier of 'absolute freedom', unless it means anarchy. Your right to drive however you want ends when the safety for others drops, precisely because the traffic laws state so. The existing laws are infringing on your freedoms, but you simply accept these laws as reasonable and therefore don't think of it as a loss for yourself.

As far as taxation goes it is if you think about it nothing more than theft.
Wrong, at least in my country. I get a lot, A LOT, from my government back.

I'm forced to pay (under penalty of jail/loss of property) for things I do not and will not use.
Sad, but unavoidable. These things are usually decided with the majority in mind. Just because you happen be one of these people who get almost nothing, doesn't mean it's theft.

Why is it required that I pay for a bailout of a company that made stupid choices? Why do I have to pay for some dumb sluts housing? Now I realize this is idealist thinking but a usage tax IMO is the only truly justified tax.
Riight... You do realize that things have a cost outside of using them? And how would you even define the costs truly accrued by you for upkeeping the legal system, if you don't use a court or after needing a judge for a few hours? Some systems and institutions need to exist even if you don't use them. Because if you need them, it's too late to begin building them up. Police is another such institution. It is impossible to calculate accurately how much less crime has affected you simply because the police systems exists.

Even in principle the idea is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Because the only alternative would be to not have any kind of government and everything would be private sector stuff. But there would not be governmental control, because on any level that would require some manhours of work, paid by someone. The companies wouldn't do it, you wouldn't trust them to do it and your proposed tax system would be unable to place the costs to proper individual. This would immediately result in some kind of community or income tax in function if not in name. And that would be the precursor of the current system.

Besides, as you admit, some things need to be maintained. And can you claim even a hint of the understanding required to comprehend and valuate which things should be maintained? Do you think your current tax levels are unfair? Then though luck. Move elsewhere. Or just do what hundrests of other sheep do: complain to your representative. Listen to worthless promises a while. And when you want to learn the reality on the matter, go visit the nearest university and ask around for a few professors in micro- and macroeconomics, political history and other experts. Because they can tell you precisely how and why your money is spent and why the decisions made in the budget meetings at you congress/whatever are what they are.

Because let's accept it, laymen don't understand the issues or their interrelated complexities. They just see the bottom line. And it can't please everyone.

And about national service being nothing but slavery? Not quite. You get money for it, you get the clothing, you get the food and you get a roof on top of your head. Quite a lot better than 90% of jobs out there. Sure, the pay isn't that good and you do have some rules regarding general conduct and leaves and such. But again, nothing too dissimiliar from ordinary jobs; At what job can you just walk out of the gate for a few days, without approval from your supervisor, and expect to come back without any kind of punishment? national service tends to just increase the level of control slightly, after all, it's about training for war you know. And with proper supervising and training the level of accidents during service is kept below numbers generated by the general public. I myself have extremely positive experiences from national service.

>Dark Elemental Summon: Wall-O-Text, success<
 

TheRightToArmBears

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AMCization said:
Also, I am open to people showing my the downsides of it. Personally, I can't think of many, other than preference.
Think harder. Religious belief? Morals? Fear of death?

I for one (despite pretending to be a psycotic mass-murderer at times) am a pacifist, I loathe the idea of killing another human because of a reason that I think could be sorted out by a sensible conversation over tea and biscuits.


open trap said:
ZahrDalsk said:
sallene said:
Sometimes I wish they adopt a system like in Starship troopers(cheesy movie), unless you serve you cant vote or be open for any of the other governmental programs available.
I would take up the profession of terrorism, and I would be targeting people like you. Risking my life trying to control another nation? Not for me. But risking my life to defend my own nation's freedom from the political right? Worth dying for.

Thankfully my country is a sensible one, so that sort of twisted, warmonger government will never happen.

@Open Trap: you should familiarize yourself with international law. Most of the US's military operations have been illegal.
again please tell me what makes war illigal or legal. to me war is war
Please stop talking. You need to just read more. Vietnam? Try and justify that. Go on.
 

sneakypenguin

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SakSak said:
Okay regarding national service would it be right if I owned company X and forced you to work for me for 2 years at whatever pay I set and with whatever rules I have in place? If there was mandatory wal-mart service that would be ridiculous, so how is it any different, how is it somehow "just" because it is "government" that makes you do it?

Regarding some other points in the text i'm not arguing anarchy i'm arguing I have liberty up until I use that liberty to infringe on your liberty. My right to drive 100mph is limited by your right to personal safety, my right to a gun is limited when that will unjustly cause you harm, my right to a business ends when I become a non-beneficial forcibly maintained monopoly etc etc etc.

I really really wanna address the gun control issue but i'll avoid it otherwise i'll be here all day :p

Regarding my view on taxes=theft (just fleshing out an idea here)
Why is it okay to take 45-55 percent of my money just because intent is good or because it is the government? Why can I not separate myself from the government and say hey I don't want social security or medicare or foodstamps or free education, because I can do all that and better on my own. You say people need to be governed, I just generally(though not always) take Thoreau's view as outlined in "resistance to civil government".
 

AdamAK

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sneakypenguin said:
Why is it okay to take 45-55 percent of my money just because intent is good or because it is the government? Why can I not separate myself from the government and say hey I don't want social security or medicare or foodstamps or free education, because I can do all that and better on my own. You say people need to be governed, I just generally(though not always) take Thoreau's view as outlined in "resistance to civil government".
Hmm, but you would also be giving up the right to use established infrastructure, police security, and many other things. The government takes care of these things now, so seperating yourself from the government would mean that you would lose a lot of rights.

I'm very curious how you could do everything better on your own.
 

Zacharine

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sneakypenguin said:
Okay regarding national service would it be right if I owned company X and forced you to work for me for 2 years at whatever pay I set and with whatever rules I have in place? If there was mandatory wal-mart service that would be ridiculous, so how is it any different, how is it somehow "just" because it is "government" that makes you do it?
Because you or you parents have had a say in these matters. For it to become law, it would mean (in a democratic country) that the people you elected to represent you thought it best and did their job. If it became law and you feel it would be wrong, you'd be welcome to protest and voice your dissent, but ultimately the fault would be yours and everyone elses who voted such persons into the office.

So, I have had a say in the law. Second: The rules regarding my 'forced employment' also bind my superiors to certain sets of rules. They order me to strip naked and go dance in front of Able company? Refuse, complain and bang, the police are investigating the idiot for ordering such a thing, most likely resulting in a demotion, severe financial harm or dishonorable discharge.

Third, the same law guarantees me rights. Essentially, it is a well thought-out and ironed contract of employment, binding both the employer and the employy to strict sets of rules watched over by public institutions. The law, made and affirmed just the same as the one which states that it's wrong to park to the middle of an intersection, would force me to sign the contract, but it would give me training, money, items, food and clothing as compensation for that inconvenience, so morally you aren't that bad off in the situation.

But, if you owned company X and the law would state that I'd have to work there for 2 years with minimal compensation...? Tough luck for me, life is a ***** and so on. I'd have to work there or escape the country. If I didn't like the law, I could try to change it (even in a dictatorship). But it would still be the law, despite any moral issues.

Regarding some other points in the text i'm not arguing anarchy i'm arguing I have liberty up until I use that liberty to infringe on your liberty.
And I'm arguing that whatever liberty you think you have is only within the limits of the law. No matter if harm is caused to me or might be caused to me is inconsequential, if there is a law regarding the subject. Driving over someone is not limiting or infringing upon his freedom (unless you define 'not getting run over with a car' a freedom), but instead is a criminal act, punishable by law. It is not criminal because I got hurt, it is criminal because the law says it's criminal. Me getting hurt might have been a major motivation for representatives when the law was first under construction, but once it became law my hurt or possible infigment of my freedom was inconsequential.

I really really wanna address the gun control issue but i'll avoid it otherwise i'll be here all day :p
It's quite funny that you mention that your freedom to drive at 100mph is limited by my freedom to personal safety and then equal that on some level to gun control issues.

You see, you admit that you might potentially cause me harm by driving fast. If actual harm happens is not required, the potential for it is enough to put in limits to proactively lessen the propability.

Yet you seem to think that on gun control issues there should not be limits UNTIL harm has been done, despite the ever-present potential for personal harm to me sustained by you simply owning a gun.

Did I get your ideas right or did I misunderstand?

Regarding my view on taxes=theft
I won't be getting into this here, this is starting to get bit out of the scope of OP, for both of us. I suggest that if you wish to continue this discussion about taxes or about gun control, you should create a new topic about it. Send me a PM and then we can discuss this issue there, safe from the possible appearance of Banhammer.

I myself have pretty much made my point of view on those matter clear.
 

MarcusMang

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Raregolddragon said:
MarcusMang said:
I think we also run into one very big problem. Most American kids are fatties. I weight 265 currently (1/3 muscle 2/3 pudding) and if the draft was reinstated right now, I would not be able to serve even if I wanted to. Although I wouldn't mind having a desk job for the military.
No I am sure you would make decent canon fodder or a nice big meat shield. Congratulations your in Bad Company.
Awwww. Thanks buddy.
 

DinosaurSnack

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Although I highly doubt I would be drafted or brought into this(I can read the second line on an eye chart and that's it without glasses) if my country truly needed me yes I would fight. I mean if an enemy invasion and my town was suddenly taken over so they decide to kill any civilians near or around military age. That is probably one of the only reasons I would fight. I am however in the minority of Americans that are 'fit', so maybe I would be called on despite my horrible eyesight. no country can justify an army of more than a couple hundred thousand because then they are just saying 'LOOK AT ME I HAVE MORE CANNON FODDER THAN YOU!!!'. Modern technology being all badass and stuff.