Well the death of one is a tragedy, the death of millions is just a statistic afterallloc978 said:
Poll: Should our species be exempt from culling?
- Thread starter Murray Whitwell
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You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself as a human being. Other animals can think just fine, they're naturally more simple than humans, that's it - that's all.Valkyrie101 said:
You say 'what's the point of the environment without us?' What makes us special? What makes us the most important? our ability to destroy anything we touch?
What's the point of sentient life? To make the flowers and the trees know just WHO is their better? To prove to the uncaring Earth that we can tear it apart with giant machines 'just because'?
Realistically speaking, Humans are the least intelligent creature on the planet. We introduced exotic species to non-native areas without thought to the consequences, and now look where we are? Foxes destroying native animal populations because they've got few predators, Rabbits destroying OTHER areas because the foxes are gone, Cane toads destroying the Australian environ because they've got no actual predators there.
When it all boils down, there's no real difference between a Human, a Tapeworm, or a Tulip, except shape.
Untrue. Animals do not and cannot think in any meaningful sense.Darius Brogan said:
Which species got into space again? Look at human achievements: there are many.
Look at what animals have achieved: nothing, ever.
Because we're the only species with that kind of power or ability. Because we're the only species with a fucking intellect.
You are fucking crazy.
Are you really saying that we should kill off the only known example of intelligent life to make way for... trees? Learn to prioritise, or go and live among wild animals since they're so wonderful.
Not willing to? Well you've just proven yourself wrong.
"We" aren't really "needed" for anything. The World will keep on turning for quite some time with us or without us. With or without the jocks, with or without the weak, strong, dumb, smart and so on. The overall Experience for the rest of us might change a little bit if any group was to be removed but mostly because of the realization that ethnic cleansings are back in fashion.
If one would want to speak for all humans, he has to speak for *all* humans. Even the ones he doesn't like all that much.
This Sentence above is something we can all agree on ethically.
To even think that every single Specimen of my Species has the same rights as i myself do is something unique to humans. Just about 10000 years ago, we cared about our Family and maybe secondarily about the Families that shared the same Cave.
That is where we came from; we'll have to deal with that and we are doing just that amazingly well. We are doing so well infact, that out environment can not keep up.
It takes quite a lot of Brainpower to realize that not only your Environment is somehow changing but that every Environment that we may ever know of is in Danger. We constantly see life settling in ridiculously hostile places, so we as a species needed some time to grasp the fact that we actually can screw up every environment we know.
So don't be so hard on us humans. We're learning. We may not be learning fast enough but we're doing the best we can.
If one would want to speak for all humans, he has to speak for *all* humans. Even the ones he doesn't like all that much.
This Sentence above is something we can all agree on ethically.
To even think that every single Specimen of my Species has the same rights as i myself do is something unique to humans. Just about 10000 years ago, we cared about our Family and maybe secondarily about the Families that shared the same Cave.
That is where we came from; we'll have to deal with that and we are doing just that amazingly well. We are doing so well infact, that out environment can not keep up.
It takes quite a lot of Brainpower to realize that not only your Environment is somehow changing but that every Environment that we may ever know of is in Danger. We constantly see life settling in ridiculously hostile places, so we as a species needed some time to grasp the fact that we actually can screw up every environment we know.
So don't be so hard on us humans. We're learning. We may not be learning fast enough but we're doing the best we can.
There's no ethical way to decide who is worthy of living, and who is worthy of being culled.
Once you start its a long and slippery slope, maybe you start with violent criminals, then just any criminal... next you know you're culling anyone with genetic defects... where does it end?
also if the population reaches a stable level, and you havent erradicated all of the people from the group you chose, there's going to be a stigma against that group, you'll be creating a new scapegoat for anything politcal like hitler and the jews
Once you start its a long and slippery slope, maybe you start with violent criminals, then just any criminal... next you know you're culling anyone with genetic defects... where does it end?
also if the population reaches a stable level, and you havent erradicated all of the people from the group you chose, there's going to be a stigma against that group, you'll be creating a new scapegoat for anything politcal like hitler and the jews
While I did say No to the Polls, I do say Yes at the same time.
My reason for Yes to the Poll:
We are the only animal on this planet which are capable of actually leaving this planet forever.
So really, our population isn't a concern as long as technology keeps improving. If we come to a halt on our advances in technology, then yeah, we may need to do something about our population, however, killing us off isn't the answer. Why? Because unlike other animals, we have an advance brain and we can restrict the population growth without killing each other off. Animals like Deer cant do this.
My reason for Yes to the Poll:
We are the only animal on this planet which are capable of actually leaving this planet forever.
So really, our population isn't a concern as long as technology keeps improving. If we come to a halt on our advances in technology, then yeah, we may need to do something about our population, however, killing us off isn't the answer. Why? Because unlike other animals, we have an advance brain and we can restrict the population growth without killing each other off. Animals like Deer cant do this.
Conservatives are like the Bible: big, religious and unchanging.
Liberals are like a bunch of Oscar Wilde quotes: feminine, sly and each takes time to wrap one's head around.
Here's an idea for you tree loving hippies: screw the planet.
When animals can advance the fields of Mathematics and the sciences, then we become no different. This idea that animals are comparable to humans enabled genocide under fascist regimes. In fact, it is already being implemented in developing nations whose exotic animals receive greater aid than their starving people.
When there is wealth and comfort in living, human beings turn to philanthropy , progress and having fewer offsprings. That is why we are masters of the animal kingdom.
Liberals are like a bunch of Oscar Wilde quotes: feminine, sly and each takes time to wrap one's head around.
Here's an idea for you tree loving hippies: screw the planet.
When animals can advance the fields of Mathematics and the sciences, then we become no different. This idea that animals are comparable to humans enabled genocide under fascist regimes. In fact, it is already being implemented in developing nations whose exotic animals receive greater aid than their starving people.
When there is wealth and comfort in living, human beings turn to philanthropy , progress and having fewer offsprings. That is why we are masters of the animal kingdom.
Until we develop one of a few different technologies it may be required as MAD won't stop other countries saying NO to the US after it's finished taking oil and looks to supplies.
Such as mind-uploading, if the 'dead' can peacefully exist in a digital world then that seems like a pretty good pension, and it means people don't feel so inclined to breed as much.
Such as mind-uploading, if the 'dead' can peacefully exist in a digital world then that seems like a pretty good pension, and it means people don't feel so inclined to breed as much.
Oh, I get it, you're just a huge fucking asshole not willing to believe that the Earth wasn't put here just to suit your specific needs as a being that perceives itself to be intelligent! That's makes SO much more sense!!!Valkyrie101 said:
Human beings made it into space, big deal, so we can fly a multi-ton scrap-heap into an empty, dead void.
Define meaningful and, while you're at it, define thought. Not the dictionary definition, by the way, what do YOU believe they mean.
So you define power as the ability to fuck over nature by taking one predatory species, perfectly suited to it's own environment, and introducing it into another environment, already possessing predatory species, thereby destabilizing the once stable food-chain and driving the non-predatory species in the area to complete extinction because of the huge new addition to the enemies one rung higher on the food-chain? Wow, you ARE an asshole.
I also never said ANYTHING about giving way to trees, genius. As a human being, I live like a human being, not the most destructive human, not the least destructive human, and I'm fine with that.
I DON'T see getting to space as worthy of note, I don't even see the development of steel as worthy of note and I DON'T believe Humans are the species this planet was made for.
I live as a neutral entity, and I will die as a neutral entity. There is NO VALID REASON that Human beings are better than any other species in existence. End of story.
It seems if one person decides to go in a dark woods at night time where there are in fact wolves he's not the one at fault for his actions, even though it was completely his fault for putting him self in danger. Instead of simply accepting that the person was perhaps foolish we have to go on this big cull and kill every wolf in sight. Meanwhile we can't even get rid of our own criminals.Valkyrie101 said:
Humanity, a fine example of double standards, inconsistency, hypocrisy, and illogical thinking. We have such a hard time pulling the trigger on people who'll rape, torture, and murder others meanwhile it's absolutely no problem to kill a bunch of wolves at random. Our methods are full on efficiency and short term. If we had the same methods in hunting as we did in law then we'd basically be randomly shooting people in hopes that we're getting rid of ones that might be criminals.
And you know, it just so happens criminals are a minority, not a majority. So we'd be shooting completely innocent people - the exact same goes for wolves that actually attack people. So should culls be allowed on humanity?
Usually though these culls cause more problems then they solve and they cause a lot of problems over time. Meanwhile, if we did a random cull on humanity then I can assure you that this would do far greater good for the world. The results wouldn't just be good in the short term, they'd be good in the long term. In fact, while we're ranting on about just how worthy human life is maybe you should take a moment to consider that if every single one of us were wiped off the world would in fact be affected positively, as opposed to any other species where the consequences can range from unnoticeable to catastrophic.
Human wellbeing has affected the world negatively in every way possible. It is unjust for a few 7.7 billion people to make the rest of the world suffer. It is hypocrisy to say it's all right because it's not done to us. And it's inconsistent to say our methods are just. And to say humans are worth more is incredibly biased. So what if we have skyscrapers? So what if we've got science and morals? In time that shit will probably matter less then even flies. Because to begin with those things will probably be around longer then us. And hell, even from a moral stand point flies win because at least their existence is a positive one.
So no, we aren't worth more. We just live in our little box of abstract ideals, morals, and convictions. And within these ideals, morals, and convictions we fail to follow them correctly. In all three we are often beaten by animals which don't even follow any three of these. And besides the statement being biased it also seems to be this self fulfilled prophecy so you can have a free pass to argue that you're worth more then everything else simply because you're a human. Well, sorry, but you're not. The only difference is that you'll be remembered for a few generations and even then you'll fade away before you can say 'history.'
On your 'what's the point of the environment without us' I reply that our existence doesn't give our environment any more meaning. What's wrong with just existing? Why does it have to be this great thing, and why exactly are we worth so much?
I mean, it is our existence after all that could be completely taken off the world and be a benefit, not a consequence. Something that is quite unheard of for every other creature in the world. Meanwhile If a creature can be completely taken off the world and have a positive effect then doesn't that technically make us un needed? Doesn't that technically make us in fact, evil? And when you consider the fact that we're dependent on them then we're technically inferior because we need them to survive, as opposed to they who don't need us.
But my own rant aside,
No. I actually don't believe that our species should be put on a cull. Despite all the obvious benefits in our existence vanishing I just so happen to be a human my self and I would prefer not being killed, thank you very much. And besides that I suppose the second reason is that I don't believe that any cull is right. While it's undeniable that a great human cull would benefit the world in every way imaginable . . . I don't believe it's right to do it to any other animal, therefor I don't believe it's right to do it to us either. So there, despite all my insanity at least my beliefs are consistent.
At least I won't pick and choose what's okay to kill and what's not. And at least I certainly won't hide behind some self righteous abstract belief that my species is worth more simply because I'm a part of them
Point here being that I'm capable of perceiving myself as intelligent, rightly or wrongly. Animals can't do such a thing, so that puts me ahead immediately. You too, much as you seem to hate your inborn superiority.Darius Brogan said:
Not very ambitious, are you? Well you might be determined to be a worthless nothing, but please don't hold back those of us with our human instincts intact.
Strangely enough, I wholeheartedly agree with Zedel.Valkyrie101 said:
To your comment though. Humans didn't spring up as soon as the planet had life on it, it was coping plenty fine before we evolved/created/whatever your beliefs are/etc and started taking up space. So yes, giving it back to the trees, flowers and the like makes perfect sense.
No, the minute a group starts on mass killing of the population it considers part of its own group that is when things are seriously fucked. If a group lack internal empathy then it?s going to find very little drive to care about anything outside of that it considers to be its group.