Poll: Should Princess Zelda Still Need Saving?

[Rebel_Raven]

I dunno, it's sort of like the old trope of the genius being bullied by the big jock. I never understood why it was so rare for the genius to actually think of a way to combat this. They don't have any martial knowledge. Sure they don't necessarily have the brawn, but I feel like brains can very much equal martial knowledge, which in turn is skill. Many martial arts work around fighting bigger, stronger enemies. A cursory knowledge of anatomy can show enough weak points in the human body to take down a person regardless of their brawn. I.E. groin shot, choke holds/grips, etc. There's a lot of debilitatingmaneuvers that don't require vast amounts of strength.
Even without resorting to violence, there's -smart- ways to get people to do the defending for you, yet that almost never comes/came into play. There's smart ways to shut this down.

See, Zelda has the triforce of Wisdom. That means she's pretty wise, yeah? Where's her wisdom in pretty much not having a way to counter Gannon with her intellect, be it in martial knowledge, strategy, magical knowledge, etc.? The wisdom to have a worthwhile army that can handle diverse threats?
Yeah, I know wisdom, and intellect are kinda different (at least as far as RPGs go) but I imagine being wise means leading to ideas, means leading to at least having the wisdom to -find- someone smart enough to do what you want done!

There's many ways to defend a kingdom, and Zelda's lack of wisdom on how to accomplish this is disappointing. It seems like her chunk is the only one to repeatedly fail. Gannon's power sees him through running roughshod over Zelda's kingdom, and if Link dies gannon wins. Link's courage sees him through! he's the hero after all! And he has the wisdom to solve puzzles along the way!
Where does Zelda actually succeed in utilizing the Wisdom piece of the Triforce, again?

Heck, with the anti-bullying campaign(s) going on in the US, actually seeing brains overcome brawn and stopping the teasing might actually be useful! Videogames, TV, movies, etc.

I mean, I can argue similarly for Peach, but she's not equipped with the embodiment of wisdom.

It's repeated failures in the defense of a nation that make me wonder just how powerful, and good these rulers actually are that their supposed utopia topples like it's made of playing cards.

I'm not saying that Zelda can't ever need rescue ever again, but I am saying that Hyrule warriors is a refreshing change of pace vs a "Legend of Zelda" where Zelda doesn't even show up in a few games! Just how important is Zelda, here?!

 

[Methodia Chicken]

I want to play a turn based strategy Zelda game in which you are Zelda commanding the armies of Hyrule against the forces of Ganon. It fits well with her character theme as wisdom is a strong leadership trait. Zelda has, herself, been a capable fighter many times, but she is rarely on par with the more direct power granted by the triforce of power and courage. It would make far more sense for her to lead an army in a genre switching spinoff than replace Link in an action/adventure game. And it could make a really good spin off franchise.

This is the stuff.

This idea has a great weight to it- the forces Ganon control being thwarted by Zelda's competency in directing forces on the battlefield, collecting resources to reinforce her position, undermining the forces of evil and protecting the people of Hyrule sounds like a really fun game- even having Link act as a resource or elite unit!

"World of Triforce"...

Oh I would so play a fire emblem/final fantasy tactics type game like this. with the range of races and cultures in the Zelda universe (multiverse?) you'd get some really diverse units.
Could even counter-play it with an "evil" campaign where you play Gannondorf conquering the kingdom by force.
With tactics more embodying the triforce of power, where units are expendable tools like in advance wars.
instead of trying to carefully and skillfully undermine the enemy you would be focused more on swiftly overwhelming an established kingdom and crushing their morale.

Or perhaps even something more similar to Civ where kingdom management elements like happiness and administration exist could work. As competent as Zelda seems as a commander I feel she would be in her element in dealing with the problems of maintaining peace, could even have her using her father the current king of Hyrule as a puppet.

 

[Darren716]

I remember LoZ Spirit Tracks having a neat mechanic where you controlled both Link and Zelda's spirit form which had become separated from her body, it made for some really fun puzzles having to switch between the two and it allowed her to also act as Link's guide for that game ala Navi or Midna. I would really like to see a larger game use the switching mechanic since it was an interesting twist and could be greatly improved on the concept if they used it in a more open world and found more ways to incorporate it.

 

[Apollo45]

I give Twilight Princess Zelda a pass because she clearly did try to fight off enemies she couldn't beat, and her army was basically entirely decimated.

I actually think they could really run with this angle. Might be recycling a little bit of Twilight Princess, but it would be a twist to have Zelda be a true ruler of a kingdom, fighting off forces of evil led by Ganondorf. Zelda begins to lead armies into battle at the beginning, but is defeated on the field at the beginning of the first act. Link, simply a soldier in one of her armies, finds her wounded on the battlefield. The story from then is centered around helping her rise back to power, defeating Ganondorf's armies, and re-crowning her as ruler of Hyrule or whatever kingdom they decide to use. She is never really a damsel in distress in this situation, instead shifting her position into one of equal or greater importance than Link's. Link shifts from being the only man who can save the world to one man in an army at the beginning, then an assistant of Zelda's throughout the story. At some point the Triforce would likely have to come into play (maybe Link is sent on a quest to obtain the Triforce, but is met by Ganondorf's forces there and the Trifore is separated again), as would Link actually fighting Ganondorf, but instead of having to do so to rescue Zelda he's doing so to sit the rightful ruler of Hyrule back in the throne.

Subtle changes in the grand scheme of things, but they could make all the difference in the world.

 

[Adam Lester]

I'm on board with the idea of there being a Legend of Zelda with...well, Zelda being more active in the game.

Hell, I'll take it a step further and wouldn't mind a game where it was Link and Zelda working together instead of Zelda just doing her usual routine. I'm thinking Prince of Persia/ICO/Journey kind of stuff (zero dialogue, everything conveyed through actions) and you could either switch between the characters on single or get P1 and P2 going on. And everyone would go home happy, I think-we'd get Zelda actively involved in the story line and we wouldn't have to sacrifice Link to do it.

 

[Fappy]

It's a throwback to a thousand year old tradition in literature. It lets you live out a sort of Arthurian legend that may be problematic by today's standards, but can't we have more politically correct games alongside ones that express more of a traditional setting without editing out what makes a series what it is for the sake of being PC? Can't we vicariously enjoy a setting where women's agency is marginalized as long as it's not the prevailing cultural narrative? Alongside LoZ we have Metroid, for example, where the limitations of the female body in violent conflicts are overcome by technology. Why don't people concerned about being PC make their own games instead of trying to change ones that are already established, until everything fits their narrative and nothing diverges? A man killing something for the sake of a woman is the oldest story in human history, starting when Thog the caveman bashed a saber toothed tiger on the head and brought it home so his wife and kids could eat.

I thought I was clear in the OP but this topic is meant to be contained to the Zelda franchise and does not concern the medium as a whole. I have read every comment in this thread so far and for many of us giving Zelda more agency in her own franchise has nothing to do with political correctness or representation. We merely want to see one of gaming's most classic characters play a more prominent role.

There's nothing wrong with making an archetypal story straight out of "Hero with a Thousand Faces", but considering the nature of the franchise I don't think it's out of the question to shake things up every now and then and break the mold.

 

[Rayce Archer]

So Zelda has the triforce of wisdom. Link has courage, and Ganon has power.

Why does wisdom have to be good all the time?

If we look at history, many evil or at least powermongering leaders were brilliant. Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Mark Anthony- nobody would call those guys dumb, right?

So here's my pitch for the next Zelda continuity.

Hyrule is an autocratic police state ruled down to the tiniest detail by Zelda, its iron-fisted queen. Using the triforce of Wisdom affords her a near-clairvoyant knowledge of everything happening in her empire, allowing her to placate her subjects' every need- and put down any who rise up in opposition to her. And of all her underlings, the most feared is Link. An orphan, raised from childhood as the royal family's "legendary hero," he is imbued with the Triforce of courage, making him totally fearless in his execution of Zelda's orders. Even worse, his endless plundering of tombs and temples, once sacred to the people, has armed him with centuries of magical relics, making his self-perceived invincibility all too real.

In a peaceful temple town high on Death Mountain, young Ganon is an apprentice to the local monk, in training to become the next temple guardian. One day, his simple life is shattered when Zelda's army arrives to impose her rule. Although the former temple guardian puts up a strong fight with his ancient magic, he is effortlessly dispatched by Link using the Sword of Mastery, a horrible relic that saps the will to fight from its weilder's enemies. Ganon is left trapped in his own ruined temple as his town is razed.

In his last terrified moments, a third triforce appears and taunts Ganon with the promise of power. Desperate for revenge, Ganon accepts the triforce, gaining superhuman strength and speed, and sets out to free Hyrule from Zelda and her mad knight. But as his power grows, the triforce also changes ganon, giving him an increasingly bestial form and luring him with visions of an empire of his own. Will he use his power to become the hero of Hyrule, or will he be driven to madness just like Link and Zelda?

Core mechanics would consist of stealth theft missions (looting back relics and returning them to Hyrule's temples), Metroid-style unlockable exploration based on gear, and developing increasing power based on the adulation of the masses. Making honorable choices such as sparing an enemy soldier at your mercy or giving up heart containers and other items offered to you by the impoverished citizens of Hyrule would allow Ganon to maintain his human (elven?) form, gaining improved speed, deceptive magical spells, and combat finesse; while taking what you want and doing as you please would cause you to slowly transform into the more recognizable pig demon form, gaining increased attack power and more destructive magic.

 

[Something Amyss]

Link's Awakening is still one of my favourite Zelda games, and there's no Zelda in it. Just a lookalike who's sort of there to remind Link of Zelda, but still no Zelda, no major rescue plot point. It'd be nice to see Zelda in a different role, but I'll be honest: I'm not the target audience. I haven't enjoyed a Zelda since they went 3D, and I doubt I'd start just because Zelda was a hero. Like, it'd be nice, but I don't care that much.

Speaking of Zelda as a hero...

Instead of having Link being the savior constantly and Zelda the damsel, make them a fighting duo.

Wonder Twin powers activate!

Let our Triforces combine!

 

[Windcaler]

Speaking from a gameplay aspect in the earlist games Zelda was a monarch without a lot of skills beyond ruling hyrule (that assumes she had military training in how to lead and organize soldiers for wide spread combat but not necessarily personal combat training and/or experience). However there was a Zelda cartoon that portrayed her as a competant, intelligent, and powerful character along side of Link and this is how most of us started to see her despite the games not painting her that way. I personally loved the idea of a powerful Zelda that just wasnt powerful enough to stand against Ganon, a physical incarnation of evil. It really said something about the villain you were against. So since probably Zelda 2: Links adventure theres always been this expectation that she be a powerful character in her own right which also supports how Ganon and his forces are so much more powerful and how Link is swimming against the current to stop him. The theme at the time was overcoming adversity

Up until Orcarina of time there was a clear and potent narrative about power, defense of a kingdom, and the threat of greater dangers beyond hyrule. Actually Links awakening was originally written as a direct answer to that because it set link leaving hyrule to train so he could stand against bigger then Ganon. That blew my mind at the time because I was thinking what could possibly be more powerful then a hyper intelligent god like wizard?

Warning: Im about to go on a bit of a rant here

Then we got orcarina of time which really just messed up the entire franchise and it hasnt recovered yet. To be honest I dont think it can recover at this point. I havnt played the Zelda games after that. Im just so disappointed in what could have been because they threw out the narrative they had for a reboot. Then they got into the practice of throwing out the entire narrative altogether to make different adventures with the same characters but never interconnected. It wasnt till a fan came up with the "different timeline" theory that it started to look like there was some sense to it all. Nintendo shot that down at some point saying there wasnt a joint narrative and then a few years ago they backpedeled to get their "official" timeline out which gamers and some fans bought hook line and sinker. Obviously Im not one of those fans, I wanted the original narrative to continue but its never going to happen now. Nintendo's stuck on this timeline and reincarnation idea which really saddens me because I felt there was a lot they could still do with the franchise. Ultimately Im very sad that this narrative was not only abandoned but retconned and IMO it really shows the developers had a lack of confidence in what they were creating. Its made me stop being a fan of the franchise and instead avoid it.

Ok rant over

However what I said before about Zelda being powerful in her own right and thus speaking silently to the greater power of Ganon and his forces is still there. I dont think she needs to be that damsel in distress but I do think its fair to say that she may need help to face greater dangers. There may be a message there that people can learn from

 

[Windcaler]

So Zelda has the triforce of wisdom. Link has courage, and Ganon has power.

Why does wisdom have to be good all the time?

Youre confusing Intelligence with wisdom. Intelligence has no conotation to descern if something is right or just. Wisdom does (in fact its one of the definitions of wisdom). Intelligence does not equate to wisdom but being wise tends to assume you are also intelligent

 

[Fappy]

So Zelda has the triforce of wisdom. Link has courage, and Ganon has power.

Why does wisdom have to be good all the time?

Youre confusing Intelligence with wisdom. Intelligence has no conotation to descern if something is right or just. Wisdom does (in fact its one of the definitions of wisdom). Intelligence does not equate to wisdom but being wise tends to assume you are also intelligent

It's also a reoccurring theme in the Zelda franchise that one must wield both courage and wisdom to overcome absolute power. While this isn't a concept that needs to be consistent across every title in the franchise, it does make swapping character roles trickier. I can't really see avatars of Courage or Wisdom being corruptible figures considering how overwhelmingly positive those ideals are.

 

[Zontar]

I can't really say I care one way or the other, only that I'd want any game in question to be good.

Which is probably the reason we won't see it happen any time soon since the staff who make these games feel the same way, and always tend to put gameplay over story. It's why Nintendo games tend to be light on story, and given some of their attempts to add real depth to some characters it's probably for the better if it stays that way (I still hear the cries of Metroid fans when the night is quiet).

 

[TheGamerElite33]

Nintendo only know to rehash same story. mario save princess peach, link save princess zelda.
all childish princess storys.

 

[Protocol95]

Nintendo only know to rehash same story. mario save princess peach, link save princess zelda.
all childish princess storys.

I'll bite. Kirby Triple Deluxe.

OT: Tropes are tools. If a good story requires the princessbe captured, fine. If it rquries the hero be captured, fine. The series has played with this and outright averted it at points. So I guess I 'Don't give a shit!'

 

[MerlinCross]

The Zelda series can really stand to be shaken up a bit. Give us more spin off games or something where the status quo isn't well status quo. Heck, Yahtzee's review of Hyrule Warriors is staying at me in the most commented box(At time of writing). Holding pattern indeed. Hyrule Warriors might be a cash grab but it's a different cash grab than just making another Zelda game.

Story wise as for why she gets kidnapped is well....she's a princess. She's well known, usually located in a few spots and has one of the elements that can bring about Ganon's downfall. Heck, swap 'Prince Link' into that and I can see why he'd be kidnapped first. Because of "I know where they are", at least that's how it always was to me especially playing these games as a kid.

Flipside is why doesn't Ganon go destroy the Master Sword, Sword of Evil's Bane first instead? Well if we want to bring that argument up, I'm going to the fall back answer as to why Zelda keeps getting kidnapped. It's pretty simple.

Lazy, Lazy writing. Or just sticking to a formula that could really stand some shaking up.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Well I think they should more of her offensive ability since I do find it abit hard to see her as an fighter in SSBB (well ok the same would apply to Peach). I mean she is capable of fighting like she assist Link against Ganon with her bow in the final battle. Maybe in the next LoZ game maybe they can show her kicking some minions arses before she get capture.

My memory may be a tad sketchy, but didn't they also do that in Twilight Princess? I swear I remember her and some of her guards trying to fight Zant when he first bursted into the Throne Room or something.

Yeah that did happened in Twilight Princess and while she was holding a sword, she then surrender when two of her guards got their arse beat by Zant minions.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I voted "don't give a shit," but mostly because I believe the writer should determine the story, not the audience. In general, I'd like to see more empowered female protagonists in games, not for any reasons relating to social equality, but for the simple sake of variety. But that's a general preference in regards to the medium as a whole, not any one given game.

In LoZ, the main problem I see is that Zelda's role as the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom is usually downplayed in comparison to Link and Ganon's roles. If I were to make any suggestion, it would be to make Zelda more of a strategist or planner. This, to me, would feel more appropriate than to turn her into an action girl Like Lara Croft or Bayonetta.