Poll: Should the MMORPG genre continue to evolve from tab-targeting?

[Sixcess]

God yes, this. My problem with most MMOs is that progression is tied purely to your level and gear, while player skill gets left by the wayside. At least that's always how it felt to me.

There's more to skill than just reflexes. An experienced player who has put some thought into their build and alters their tactics according to what they're fighting will perform far far better than another player with identical gear who simply slogs through set rotations.

I'm really not sure where this common perception that there's no actual skill in MMO combat comes from. I can only think it's either based on experience of the lower levels before you have a wide range of abilities to use, or endgame content that follows the WoW model, where gear is paramount for accessing the content, and DPSers in particular don't need to push themselves if they have a competent tank - although that still doesn't mean there's no skill involved, only that it's possible to be carried through a lot of group content if some other members of the group do know what they're doing.

 

[veloper]

Poll doesn't make any sense.
- World of Warcraft has both tab-targeting and mouse targeting...and it's been doing this since it was made back in 2002. I was almost always using mouse-targeting when I needed to target/switch between important enemies.
- Guild Wars 2 has the both mouse/tab, although the need to manually target is often needless because most abilities are directional/AoE/cleave.

What exactly needs "revolutionizing"? Am I missing something?

He probably meant tab-targetting and similar MMORPG methods opposed to new MMOGs going full on action gaming.

 

[Fat Hippo]

There's more to skill than just reflexes. An experienced player who has put some thought into their build and alters their tactics according to what they're fighting will perform far far better than another player with identical gear who simply slogs through set rotations.

I'm really not sure where this common perception that there's no actual skill in MMO combat comes from. I can only think it's either based on experience of the lower levels before you have a wide range of abilities to use, or endgame content that follows the WoW model, where gear is paramount for accessing the content, and DPSers in particular don't need to push themselves if they have a competent tank - although that still doesn't mean there's no skill involved, only that it's possible to be carried through a lot of group content if some other members of the group do know what they're doing.

Oh, I believe when you say that more skill comes into it, once one fights in large groups and takes on difficult quests, but I have no desire whatsoever to grind for countless hours on uninteresting quests and trash mobs which demand nothing of me as a player. I shouldn't have to do something that feels like "work" before I reach anything resembling satisfying gameplay. I have tried numerous MMOs over the years, and this has been my experience with every single one of them.

I know some people actually enjoy grinding, but it makes me want to put a gun to my head and pull the trigger, and with the way most MMOs are built, that pretty much makes them unenjoyable for me. But if they were to implement a combat system which is a joy to experience, in and of itself, that could change.

 

[VanQ]

Of course. Give me a first person VRMMO and I might actually be able to enjoy the genre like I used to. I love the shit out of MMOs because of the sheer potential they hold. Why would I want anything other than progress for the medium? Why would anyone for any reason even if they dislike MMOs not want to see them progress and evolve?

 

[default]

Yep. If there's one thing I hate about MMO's it's those boring-ass combat cycles. Click on a dude to whack him on the head repeatedly and mash all your buffs and actives until he dies. Give me a weighty, nicely flowing, simply presented but complex action-based engine like the one in the Souls games anyday. I'm not saying the 'combat cycle' style of gameplay doesn't take skill, because it does, to a point. It's just bloody tedious to me.

This is one of the reasons Realm of the Mad God intrigues me. Levelling, learning the systems and gear can only get you so far, eventually you're going to have to learn how to dodge and duck in to deliver attacks when the opportunity presents itself. Mind you, that game is the biggest visually confusing spam-fest ever, so perhaps it isn't the best example. But hey, perhaps making sense of the chaos on your screen is meant to be part of learning the game...

 

[bananafishtoday]

Combined with the option to click, it's a good system for MMOs that require targeting. I use it a lot in the WoW clone I've been playing, along with F keys for party/raid members and ` for target-of-target. If the game design doesn't require targeting, yeah, you wouldn't use it.

My gold standard is still Ragnarok Online though, so I'd love to see a new MMO with that kind of playstyle instead.

 

[Mordekaien]

Wasn't tab targeting and hotbar style of skill use made just so that everyone was on a level field, despite the crappy internet connection you might have?

I went with yes, even though I find some games that use old mechanics incredibly charming, in that old timey fashion.
I see no point however, to keep the mechanics stale, if there is room for evolution.

 

[Burst6]

I've been looking for a good action MMO. Most of them are made by small korean companies that don't exactly have the budged to make and advertise a powerful state-of-the-art game. They usually suffer from bad lag or bad cash shops.

I'm hoping Phantasy Star Online 2 will be a good game. It's action based and it's made by Sega who are probably better than Nexon.

I am really bored of games like WoW. I like the idea of beating enemies that are supposed to be able to beat me easily. In tab-targeted games individual skill doesn't matter as much as numbers.

 

[Sixcess]

Oh, I believe when you say that more skill comes into it, once one fights in large groups and takes on difficult quests, but I have no desire whatsoever to grind for countless hours on uninteresting quests and trash mobs which demand nothing of me as a player. I shouldn't have to do something that feels like "work" before I reach anything resembling satisfying gameplay. I have tried numerous MMOs over the years, and this has been my experience with every single one of them.

Grinding isn't as integral to MMO design as it used to be - unless it's a Korean MMO, since for some reason Korean gamers love to grind past the point of insanity - but I do agree that a lack of challenge can be a factor. My main reason for disliking WoW these days is that the levelling content is now absurdly easy - from about level 10 onwards I'd be almost unkillable unless I took stupid risks, and that did feel like a grind, because though I was moving through the content quickly there was no challenge and no fun - like playing a singleplayer game you're very good at on easy/casual difficulty.

The MMOs I do enjoy tend to either have instanced missions that can be set to higher difficulty levels - like Star Trek Online or City of Heroes - or something other than combat to hold my interest - a good story and/or an interesting world to explore - like SWTOR and LOTRO. Although I do quite enjoy the combat in both of those games its not the main draw, in much the same way that whilst I like the combat in Mass Effect 2 I was playing it for the story.

Strangely enough, the grindiest game I ever played (except for some Korean MMOs) was a single player game - Oblivion. So many generic bandit caves and crypts to clear out to no greater purpose...

 

[SerithVC]

i do believe more MMO games need to have the same combat system that Demon's Douls or Dark Souls has. Classes in the sense of arcane spell caster, divine spell caster, weapon specialist, or theif. You can increase your skills with types of spells, weapons, and skills by using them (kina like FF2 except your health goes up a little depending on the type of skll).

 

[sanquin]

Yes and no. Yes because it's good that mmorpg's keep evolving. No because I don't want it to completely disappear. I like to casually play an mmorpg and watch a movie or something else at the same time quite often. Not all the time, but enough to not want to have such gameplay disappear. (Heck, it's the only reason I still play WoW. Because how easy it is. I don't have to really pay attention 90% of the time.)

 

[sanquin]

i do believe more MMO games need to have the same combat system that Demon's Douls or Dark Souls has. Classes in the sense of arcane spell caster, divine spell caster, weapon specialist, or theif. You can increase your skills with types of spells, weapons, and skills by using them (kina like FF2 except your health goes up a little depending on the type of skll).

Just basic classes would be enough yes. Mage, priest, strength/stamina fighter, speed/agility fighter is all you REALLY need. Though I would personally like a hybrid added to that. I like playing hybrids. >.> Increasing spell/skill levels by using them has been done before though. And it sucks. It just forces mind-numbing farming or even AFK farming for your skills. In an mmorpg at least.

Personally, I would love gameplay like TERA (apart from the charge skills which are annoying as hell and slow the flow of combat.) but with a better setting, story and better levelling. The combat in TERA really was about as close to a working 'evolution' as you could get, but the rest of the game was pretty lacking.

 

[Folji]

I think the Zelda-style Action RPG approach offers a way more fast-paced and responsive way to tackle combat in an MMORPG compared to the old right-click and macro key solution, to the point where any visit back to World of Warcraft involves some clever interface modding to enable that kind of gameplay (camera locked to the mouse, mouse buttons triggering abilities, and so on). Same with Guild Wars 2, got an AutoHotkey macro that intercepts and rewrites my mouse input to play more like TERA and DCUO does!

 

[deviltry]

Hell no. MMORPGs are about using skills, not aiming and shooting 5 skills like Tera. If I wanted that, I would go play Halo.

 

[Candidus]

Rather than saying "tab targetting vs... not tab targetting"
I would say "highly mechanical number generator vs. most attacks have to be aimed and can be dodged".

And naturally, as a long time player of TERA, I prefer the latter and have come to despise the former. TOR was completely unnacceptable. The last game that should have been allowed out of the gate with the same stale, tired, unexciting system we've been enduring since Everquest was Aion. No more. Time for everyone to move up to TERA's benchmark.

 

[scw55]

I don't see why we can't have both.
Sometimes you want a gentle MMO where the combat can be wielded with not much intellect.
Sometimes you want a fast-paced actiony combat.

I like the idea of when I used an ability, it's more meaningful than just activating a programming script which is disguised as an 'ability'. It would be nice if abilities felt more meaningful. We've had two decades of RPGs. It'd be nice if we had some fresh angles on the traditional spells and abilities. The Fireball and variance is a little old.

I would love an MMO with an ingenious magic system. I would love an MMO where hybrids feel fun and fresh and balanced. I would love an MMO where Pures were as enjoyable and engaging as Hybrids.
-
Try playing Kingdom of Amular if you crave hardcore action MMORPG. It is an MMORPG just without the MMO. I can assure you, if you try and do every quests, you will get bored at the half-way point. Combat system can only take you so far. You need an engaging narrative (not a HUGE ONE THAT DEVOURS YOU) and 'meaningful' and engaging quests.

The quests I really get into in Skyrim (for example) are the quest-chain quests. The quest suddenly has a stronger narrative depth. It's not just DO/KILL this.

 

[mitchell271]

All I know is that I'm not getting into MMORPGs again until they make a VRMMO like Sword Art Online.

 

[Candidus]

All I know is that I'm not getting into MMORPGs again until they make a VRMMO like Sword Art Online.

Eugh, don't even mention that. Finding the fact that something doesn't exist yet hard to deal with might seem stupid and strange, but VRMMOs definitely evoke a sad sort of yearning in me. I can't think of anything else that does.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Rather than saying "tab targetting vs... not tab targetting"
I would say "highly mechanical number generator vs. most attacks have to be aimed and can be dodged".

This.
Although for it to work there would have to be less emphasis on fights with big groups of enemies. I know from my time tanking on WoW that trying to manage a large group of enemies with mouse-targeting is a gigantic pain in the arse, and I don't really see how it would be possible to tank a large group with aimed attacks either.