Poll: Should we 'call out' trolls?

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Collin Stewart

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Mar 29, 2011
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typical woman, has no idea how to deal with trolls, she should go back to the kitchen.
LELELELLELELELELELELEELELRLE I TOTALLY TROLLED.

But seriously, Only call them out if people are engaging. On a forum I participate in we get trolled *a lot* by people, absolutely none of the vets will even recognize those posts and the users who sent them will usually go away unless a seminoob responds with either a hostile, well thought out, or troll alert. Following this the troll will respond in some reply based on the noobs response. This is the only point that the simple message "ignore the troll" post will appear.

Basically I'm the 3rd option, which is ignore the trolls till they get called out, then point out their a troll and ignore them.
The issue most...real life people on the internet, these being people who are not very "web wise" have is that they
A: don't block aggresive users
B: don't control comments or do the sarkizian thing (see end of post)
C: actively engage with trolls/detractors
These 3 things are exactly what you don't do, NO ONE argues on the internet, everyone is here to state their point and then see who goes to their banner. I honestly don't expect anyone who reads this to have a change in opinion about anything, its not what you're here for.

In regards to the great feminist scammer Anita Sarkeesian I would say that I was one of the "trolls" because I pointed out that her kickstarter got her money but did not change anything about her production value, her refusal to allow counter argument if sent out in a well written manner and her generally flawed viewpoint.
She censored her comment system but ONLY allowed supportive and troll comments through. I proved this to a friend by having written over 15 counter argument comments and none of them getting past the author approval phase. But when I wrote "your a dumb **** lel" It took less than 2 days for it to get on a comment section. Anita Sarkeesian LOVED the trolling, it got her more attention and more donations that she pocketed since he has clearly not spent it on video production.
 

mecegirl

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For me it depends on what the troll is going on about. If its like Tono Makt's example with the Avenger's movie then sure, maybe that person really doesn't like the Avenger's movie, maybe they are trolling, but who cares? There really isn't a need to engage.

If its something racist, sexist (pick your ist or ism) I say call them out. People come on the internet to relax, and we deal with enough shit during the day. Why after possibly dealing with sexism in "real life" should a woman have to deal with it online(or once again pick your ist or ism and fill in the blanks? Who thinks doing stuff like that is funny anyway, like how much of a jerk do you have to be to get your kicks from "playing" at being a bigot?
 

loc978

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veloper said:
In mother Russia trolls call out YOU.

Don't feed the troll is the only sound advice. Makes the internet a bit more boring, because genuine trolls can be funny, but there's always plenty fools online who just will not ignore the troll anyway. Remember that trolls do not only do it for themselves, but also for their audience.

You can ignore clueless flamers and the kooks along with the trolls, so that should make it easy even for those of you who don't know the difference. That is unless you enjoy the exchange yourself ofcourse. Remember that you can always walk out.

Griefers you simply have to deal with non-verbally (kick/ban), or if you cannot, it's better to just leave the game yourself, because the shrill and impotent cries of angry gamers only add to the fun.

Last but not least, genuine harassment that isn't limited to comedic online posts or spoiling online games, is what you take to the authorities, like your teacher, your parents or maybe even to the police.

Now you know. Internet 101 kids.
While I agree with the dynamics you've laid out, I disagree with the approach. If someone trolls you, you feed them and the ending is hilarious, everyone wins (assuming you have a tough enough ego to take it in stride). If a genuine idiot spouts hate-speech without opposition, he wins in his own head, even if he's just being ignored. Telling one from the other on the internet is generally impossible until well into an argument, as their stated views are identical. It's easy to emulate the views and mannerisms of an idiot.

Of course, I'm talking primarily about forums and social media (as was Ms. Guthrie), you seem to be talking primarily about online games... in which case you'd be right. The correct approach to trolling/hate speech really does depend on the medium... but online games involving random strangers are something I left behind 10+ years ago when the mechanics and people involved gained more... universal appeal. My niche died. Oh well.
 

Redd the Sock

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I've said it a lot here in the past. Trolling takes root in people without proper self respect. A Troll wants to get a response from you about hurt feelings, so if your response has any indication that you take the shit being spewed seriously, you've got a troll for the foreseeable future. Myself, I have preference to just ignoring them: finding that it's a better solution to try and have and develop the self respect in ourselves and others to not let anonymous assholes determine our self worth. Engaging them, or public shaming efforts really only let the troll know they're getting what they want out of you: a fun person to emotionally torment that can spill out into blowing up the internet with everyone jumping to play white knight. Other types of trolls I think are out to find people that will disagree with them and shout them down to feed into a persecution complex (I must be on to something or they wouldn't be so angry or try to censor me). You don't win by playing with either.

Report, block, mute, whatever you have to that doesn't give attention whores what they feed on.
 

Nexxis

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I think that it's a good thing to call out trolls on their BS. Ignoring them can work sometimes, but it's only temporary and it doesn't stop the problem. The person will just go bother someone else or other trolls will start to appear and cause problems. There are no consequences to their actions and they have nothing to lose by doing this especially if the community does nothing about it. Giving their actions some impact can help reduce the problem. However, I also think that's it's important to keep the "justice" from getting out of hand. I'm not sure if matters would get much better if the bully became the bullied.
 

ForumSafari

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Caliostro said:
For example, someone going "Hitler was right. Discuss.".
Funnily enough on some sites the exact opposite will work as well, nicely demonstrating how situational trolling is.

Caliostro said:
So yeah, if those people sense that your "soft spot" is sexism, they will use that against you. It's not sexism or misogyny, it's being an asshole.

Thus the "don't feed the trolls" mantra. Because all they want, everything they're looking for, is a rise out of you
Exactly this. They're having fun annoying you because you're fun to annoy, not because of any deeper reason. 'Fighting trolls' or 'calling trolls out' isn't going to work, firstly because 'calling people out' is a dumbass thing to do that doesn't achieve anything but makes tumblrfeminists feel powerful. As an extra bonus score it also very quickly highlights weaknesses in your own stance if any exist and by association makes women look very weak and childish for not being able to just ignore nasty words.

Secondly it's because you're saying that you're going to get ultra buttmad to stop people thinking that making you mad is funny. It's not going to work because that's what they want. If someone's mocking you and you think it's because you're a woman it's probably not because you're a woman, it's probably because you've made the things that send you round the bend obvious and people want to wind you up.


EDIT: A third point is that most Internet users troll a little. Most people just do it against designated fair targets. Let's be honest, when you start engaging with creationists, racists and (for most of you) conservatives you aren't trying to debate them in good faith, you're trying to take the piss because you think they're stupid in a funny way.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Andrew Siribohdi said:
One thing I can agree on is that online harassment is unacceptable. It does not contribute and it doesn't put the gaming community in a positive light. But the question on my mind is how to respond to it, if we should respond at all.

Here's a video from a TedxToronto talk.


Here's what I don't understand. There have been accusations of the gaming community of 'standing by and doing nothing' while trolls harass other players. But, what is meant by doing 'nothing'? If I see violence on the street, I would call the police. If I were to encounter sexist, racist, homophobic slurs on a forum, such as this one, I would report it to the administrator. If I were to play on Xbox Live and the opposing player was being rude, I would file a complaint, ignore said player, and give them a bad review. The question being do these methods work and does it help?

Sometimes, other activists go one step further and post the offensive tweet and attempt to tell other Twitter users to acknowledge this person. Other times, people post Youtube videos about offensive behavior and the user in general. From my perspective, it seems a bit much and giving unwarranted attention to someone who doesn't deserve it.

What do you believe is the right way to approach harassment and trolls?
Well, the issue is of course that "troll" tends to be subjective. I myself for example would point out that roughly 50% of the population in the first world and 80-90% of the people globally are hardly supporter of gay rights. In the US it waffles back and forth on single digit percentages, and becomes a divisive issue because supporters of gay rights like to try and pass laws on "moral principle" while not having the intended level of support to do so, or make them stick. Hence why in the US you even see things going back and forth in the most liberal states like California. The term you just used "homophobic" is by definition trolling as it's an offensive statement intended to imply something wrong (via unreasonable/insane fear of homosexuality) with those who don't support gay rights. Especially on a divisive issue like that, those who have the opposite opinion arguably have the right to express it.

I point this out largely to point out how subjective the standard is, because a lot of communities of course wouldn't agree with me, but others would. In a neutral forum however the wise thing to do is to take neither side, which means that as things go on, people get upset simply by having to listen to people who express the opposite viewpoint. Right now we're starting to see some nasty battles going on over harassment by the pro-gay movement, with attacks/blacklists/etc... being aimed at people who simply exercised their right to vote in the way the pro-gay movement disagreed with. Interestingly undermining the entire process because when handling things within the system increasingly does not work and leads to harassment, it encourages people to take things outside of the system. I expect things to get worse rather than better... but really those specifics are neither here nor there as far as this point goes. The point here is that the reason why so much trolling isn't policed is because it's connected to something like this (if not this issue) and really the people screaming "troll" are actually looking for censorship to be enforced on behalf of whatever they happen to think.

*most* forums and channels that try and remain game-centric try and impose a complete and total ban on politics, religion, and ethics, including such things like "human rights" topics related to racism, sexual orientation, or whatever, except as they might apply to the material in question (ie Orcs and Elves hating each other, or whatever). This has mixed results, as it requires moderators who are themselves willing to basically bite their tongues when it comes to their personal beliefs and enforce things evenly, say moderating someone for speaking in favor of gay rights and transgenderism, just as much as they would someone speaking against it. Some sites (like the Escapist actually) tend to be pretty good about it, others not so much, and when it comes to channels it varies greatly. For the most part if your in say an MMO, or a FPS lobby, nobody wants to hear about politics, no matter what yours happen to be. Depending on the situation this may or may not become more complicated when the subject the channel is dedicated to covers material that involves political aspects. In such a general "anything goes" environment the proper way to do it, is generally to define a troll "classically' as being someone whose sole intent is to cause chaos and division, someone expressing a viewpoint or "showing the flag" for it, is not a general trouble maker. If one side is allowed to speak, so is the
other (so to speak), otherwise it's not truly allowing general discussion.

To put things into perspective of this video, beyond the general issue (for those who read this far) what she's saying is that anyone who disagrees with feminism must be "a misogynist troll", and that women pretty much have the right to be loud, obnoxious, opinionated and troll themselves, and should not expect retaliation because they are women. To actually take a strong hand back with women, is effectively wrong, because they are women. She starts out by going on about how she has all these death threats collected which apply to her, or women involved in Toronto politics. That has nothing to do with being a woman actually, it has to do with being an opinionated politician. No matter what side your on your going to wind up with thousands upon thousands of people disliking you. All politicians get death threats, is it right? Well not really, but it has nothing to do with being a woman. Guess what, personal attacks are also going to use anything they can as well. When it comes to a video of a public person getting beaten up, raped, or put in disturbing situations, that's also par for the course. There have been tons of little games about "shooting so and so politician", both Bush and Obama got plenty of those. Check out a site like say "Encyclopedia Dramatica" and you'll see artwork of people like Obama having sex with furries (which is why they allegedly support him) and stuff like that. There was actually a comic book ("The Authority") where The President (drawn pretty much as Bush) was lobbed through a gateway to be ripped apart by rioting Muslims if I remember. Another comic ("Supreme Power") portrayed him as a letch having BDSM fantasies about one of his female interns (who I believe was drawn as a sexed up Condi Rice). No offense but if you can't handle that, you don't belong in politics, and whining about it actually undermines feminism. Especially nowadays you can't even say there is a sexual spin on it that only applies to women, because there isn't, both Bush and Obama have inspired many "nasty jokes" that end with them getting prison raped after going to jail for crimes perceived by the joker. When it comes to Anita Sarkeesian, she is a troll, so you can't really use her as a good example of "problems with trolling", she's kind of the person you want to be able to shut up so it doesn't turn into the three ring circus that's been built around her. As many critics of her videos have pointed out, she really doesn't have a single valid point behind her, and even arguably contradicts herself in going after whatever the biggest chunk of attention she can get is. The more people try and legitimize her, simply because she's a woman and throws around the term "feminist" the more intense the hate grows because she's not even the real deal, she's a trouble maker.


To put this into overall context, when you look at the claims made in this video, it arguably defines trolling itself, especially given the way it starts. It's designed to create controversy, and isn't even promoting much in the way of a valid or popular position. To use my initial point about "gay rights" (which I will not argue in detail here) it's a big issue, it goes back and forth every day, we have laws waffling in places about whether it's legal for gays to marry or not almost every week, and all kinds of associated messes. Whether you agree with one side or another it's a big issue and serious business, with a lot of people on either side. When a video starts with "I'm in politics and I get death threats... and it's obviously misogynistic" followed by trying to use Anita Sarkeesian of all people (who even if you don't think she's a troll, is someone who is so divisive she cannot be used to ground or reinforced), it seems almost like "Ted X Toronto" is standing their going "lookit meeee! I want attention! I'll offend people and stir up a hornets nest until I get it!". Trolls come from all ends of the socio-political spectrum, hers just gets called on it a lot less, and amusingly seems to be getting pretty meta by using trolling as a reason to troll. :)
 

Savagezion

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0:35-1:20 "What is trolling?"

I agree with her definition completely. However, I think that means that trolls will, for sure, never go away. As well, it means its something healthy for communities if handled properly as a community that can overcome random chaos being injected can grow much larger because it is stronger.

Now, about everything else she said, I disagree completely. Right after the part I reference she makes the "trolling = misogyny" fallacy she had JUST separated. While I do applaud her approach with the twitter comment, she trolled a troll, that's always awesome. One thing to consider is what if a guy tweeted that to another guy about punching guys in the face? No one would give a damn. We don't know if the game was "violence against women" or just "violence" that happened to a woman. I don't see those as the same. Is a mugger who stabs a woman a misogynist? Now, it could have been but that doesn't mean it was.

What did he have to lose? According to Anita, Mario had already implanted misogyny into his brain through intentional or unintentional subconscious communication from Nintendo. It's Nintendo's fault that game about Anita exists. He is just a poor victim of society's high expecation of him to be violent and misogynistic as a male in this man's world. Poor guy.

It's possible he thought Anita was stupid and made a quick flash game where you beat her up. I bet if a girl made one of beating up Bobby Kottick no one would care.


11:00 Quotes
"It's funny. People are calling me a misogynist just because I made a game where you hit a person, just because the person is a woman."
"It's funny. That is pretty much the text book definition of misogyny."
Let's consider his statement reads like this:
"It's funny. People are calling me a misogynist just because I made a game where you hit a person, just because the person [is] happens to be a woman."

I could see someone shorthanding "happens to be" with "is". And "happens to be" means equally included. I could also see someone reading it as "It's funny. People are calling me a misogynist just because I made a game ...................... where you hit a person just because the person is a woman." and totally misinterpreting it.

Going back up to the definition I do agree with her on, misogyny needs to be called out but it does need to be discussed, not banishment. A stupid troll will leave soon after serious discussion starts. If the troll trolled because they want to talk about it, is that trolling? Or opening discussion?
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Redd the Sock said:
I've said it a lot here in the past. Trolling takes root in people without proper self respect. A Troll wants to get a response from you about hurt feelings, so if your response has any indication that you take the shit being spewed seriously, you've got a troll for the foreseeable future. Myself, I have preference to just ignoring them: finding that it's a better solution to try and have and develop the self respect in ourselves and others to not let anonymous assholes determine our self worth. Engaging them, or public shaming efforts really only let the troll know they're getting what they want out of you: a fun person to emotionally torment that can spill out into blowing up the internet with everyone jumping to play white knight. Other types of trolls I think are out to find people that will disagree with them and shout them down to feed into a persecution complex (I must be on to something or they wouldn't be so angry or try to censor me). You don't win by playing with either.

Report, block, mute, whatever you have to that doesn't give attention whores what they feed on.

Well, the thing is that trolling is properly done with a large audience. The thing is that unless everyone pretty much decides to ignore them, it's a pointless exercise.

I'll also be honest in saying that a skilled troll can be a godsend to a lot of games, as they can make grinding go quicker if they can get you to laugh. Half the problem is that people wind up taking them waaay too seriously. A lot of trolls actually do work within, and become valued members of, their online communities. It all depends on their style and of course how far they push things at one time.

As I pointed out in my previous long post the problem is that people tend to label anyone they don't like as a "troll". It's oftentimes political in the sense of "OMG, you don't like this behavior or group of people I am fond of, so you must be a troll". It depends on the context of course, but that's the bottom line. It depends on the seriousness of the discussion, and whether the person believes in the point they are making (even just showing the flag) or is there to get people's goats.

As I also said in my big post, I find it odd that this video started this discussion when the very first thing it sets up is "Me and some other ladies are in politics... we've received death threats" and then goes along to try and turn this into it being misogynistic. Your talking about a train of logic which is totally non-sequitor and seems intended to get attention and rile people. Even sex, violence, and sexual violence aren't uniquely thrown at women in that position. As I pointed out people have done all kinds of crude stuff about both Bush and Obama, I think some of Obama's more colorful artwork (like him having sex with furries) can be found on his page on Encyclopedia Dramatica atill. Threats of violence and murder? Ditto. Games about brutalizing politicians? Seen that too (heck there have been ads running off the gimmick of "click here to punch *politician* in the face". Bush and Obama getting prison raped has been the punchline of many jokes by their respective enemies who have pushed to have them impeached and thrown in jail. On a lot of levels this defines trolling as your dealing with a video intended to get a reaction, that doesn't even really have a legitimate viewpoint behind it. As soon as the whole "we're public people and in politics" part came out it pretty much became a matter of "yep, the world sucks, that's not Misogynistic, it's why it's a hard job. If you can't handle the pressure, get out".
 

Savagezion

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Therumancer said:
Andrew Siribohdi said:
One thing I can agree on is that online harassment is unacceptable. It does not contribute and it doesn't put the gaming community in a positive light. But the question on my mind is how to respond to it, if we should respond at all.

Here's a video from a TedxToronto talk.


Here's what I don't understand. There have been accusations of the gaming community of 'standing by and doing nothing' while trolls harass other players. But, what is meant by doing 'nothing'? If I see violence on the street, I would call the police. If I were to encounter sexist, racist, homophobic slurs on a forum, such as this one, I would report it to the administrator. If I were to play on Xbox Live and the opposing player was being rude, I would file a complaint, ignore said player, and give them a bad review. The question being do these methods work and does it help?

Sometimes, other activists go one step further and post the offensive tweet and attempt to tell other Twitter users to acknowledge this person. Other times, people post Youtube videos about offensive behavior and the user in general. From my perspective, it seems a bit much and giving unwarranted attention to someone who doesn't deserve it.

What do you believe is the right way to approach harassment and trolls?


Well, the issue is of course that "troll" tends to be subjective. I myself for example would point out that roughly 50% of the population in the first world and 80-90% of the people globally are hardly supporter of gay rights. In the US it waffles back and forth on single digit percentages, and becomes a divisive issue because supporters of gay rights like to try and pass laws on "moral principle" while not having the intended level of support to do so, or make them stick. Hence why in the US you even see things going back and forth in the most liberal states like California. The term you just used "homophobic" is by definition trolling as it's an offensive statement intended to imply something wrong (via unreasonable/insane fear of homosexuality) with those who don't support gay rights. Especially on a divisive issue like that, those who have the opposite opinion arguably have the right to express it.

I point this out largely to point out how subjective the standard is, because a lot of communities of course wouldn't agree with me, but others would. In a neutral forum however the wise thing to do is to take neither side, which means that as things go on, people get upset simply by having to listen to people who express the opposite viewpoint. Right now we're starting to see some nasty battles going on over harassment by the pro-gay movement, with attacks/blacklists/etc... being aimed at people who simply exercised their right to vote in the way the pro-gay movement disagreed with. Interestingly undermining the entire process because when handling things within the system increasingly does not work and leads to harassment, it encourages people to take things outside of the system. I expect things to get worse rather than better... but really those specifics are neither here nor there as far as this point goes. The point here is that the reason why so much trolling isn't policed is because it's connected to something like this (if not this issue) and really the people screaming "troll" are actually looking for censorship to be enforced on behalf of whatever they happen to think.

*most* forums and channels that try and remain game-centric try and impose a complete and total ban on politics, religion, and ethics, including such things like "human rights" topics related to racism, sexual orientation, or whatever, except as they might apply to the material in question (ie Orcs and Elves hating each other, or whatever). This has mixed results, as it requires moderators who are themselves willing to basically bite their tongues when it comes to their personal beliefs and enforce things evenly, say moderating someone for speaking in favor of gay rights and transgenderism, just as much as they would someone speaking against it. Some sites (like the Escapist actually) tend to be pretty good about it, others not so much, and when it comes to channels it varies greatly. For the most part if your in say an MMO, or a FPS lobby, nobody wants to hear about politics, no matter what yours happen to be. Depending on the situation this may or may not become more complicated when the subject the channel is dedicated to covers material that involves political aspects. In such a general "anything goes" environment the proper way to do it, is generally to define a troll "classically' as being someone whose sole intent is to cause chaos and division, someone expressing a viewpoint or "showing the flag" for it, is not a general trouble maker. If one side is allowed to speak, so is the
other (so to speak), otherwise it's not truly allowing general discussion.

To put things into perspective of this video, beyond the general issue (for those who read this far) what she's saying is that anyone who disagrees with feminism must be "a misogynist troll", and that women pretty much have the right to be loud, obnoxious, opinionated and troll themselves, and should not expect retaliation because they are women. To actually take a strong hand back with women, is effectively wrong, because they are women. She starts out by going on about how she has all these death threats collected which apply to her, or women involved in Toronto politics. That has nothing to do with being a woman actually, it has to do with being an opinionated politician. No matter what side your on your going to wind up with thousands upon thousands of people disliking you. All politicians get death threats, is it right? Well not really, but it has nothing to do with being a woman. Guess what, personal attacks are also going to use anything they can as well. When it comes to a video of a public person getting beaten up, raped, or put in disturbing situations, that's also par for the course. There have been tons of little games about "shooting so and so politician", both Bush and Obama got plenty of those. Check out a site like say "Encyclopedia Dramatica" and you'll see artwork of people like Obama having sex with furries (which is why they allegedly support him) and stuff like that. There was actually a comic book ("The Authority") where The President (drawn pretty much as Bush) was lobbed through a gateway to be ripped apart by rioting Muslims if I remember. Another comic ("Supreme Power") portrayed him as a letch having BDSM fantasies about one of his female interns (who I believe was drawn as a sexed up Condi Rice). No offense but if you can't handle that, you don't belong in politics, and whining about it actually undermines feminism. Especially nowadays you can't even say there is a sexual spin on it that only applies to women, because there isn't, both Bush and Obama have inspired many "nasty jokes" that end with them getting prison raped after going to jail for crimes perceived by the joker. When it comes to Anita Sarkeesian, she is a troll, so you can't really use her as a good example of "problems with trolling", she's kind of the person you want to be able to shut up so it doesn't turn into the three ring circus that's been built around her. As many critics of her videos have pointed out, she really doesn't have a single valid point behind her, and even arguably contradicts herself in going after whatever the biggest chunk of attention she can get is. The more people try and legitimize her, simply because she's a woman and throws around the term "feminist" the more intense the hate grows because she's not even the real deal, she's a trouble maker.


To put this into overall context, when you look at the claims made in this video, it arguably defines trolling itself, especially given the way it starts. It's designed to create controversy, and isn't even promoting much in the way of a valid or popular position. To use my initial point about "gay rights" (which I will not argue in detail here) it's a big issue, it goes back and forth every day, we have laws waffling in places about whether it's legal for gays to marry or not almost every week, and all kinds of associated messes. Whether you agree with one side or another it's a big issue and serious business, with a lot of people on either side. When a video starts with "I'm in politics and I get death threats... and it's obviously misogynistic" followed by trying to use Anita Sarkeesian of all people (who even if you don't think she's a troll, is someone who is so divisive she cannot be used to ground or reinforced), it seems almost like "Ted X Toronto" is standing their going "lookit meeee! I want attention! I'll offend people and stir up a hornets nest until I get it!". Trolls come from all ends of the socio-political spectrum, hers just gets called on it a lot less, and amusingly seems to be getting pretty meta by using trolling as a reason to troll. :)
Holy crap, this post is awesome. Just for posting that, the internet is yours for a day.
 

StriderShinryu

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I would say that it's definitely more of a complicated issue. There are definitely trolls who just make comments to be funny (even if they often aren't) or to get a rise out of someone. There's little point in calling that kind of troll out because it's basically what they want. They want the reaction.

There are, however, also people who are incorrectly labelled as trolls but who are actually total douchebags. They hide behind the troll label so generously applied by others because "Hey, it's the internet, don't take it so seriously!" just so they can spew hate, insults, sexism, etc. These types of people should absolutely be called out, but not for being trolls. They should be called out for being the douchebags that they are.
 

veloper

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loc978 said:
veloper said:
In mother Russia trolls call out YOU.

Don't feed the troll is the only sound advice. Makes the internet a bit more boring, because genuine trolls can be funny, but there's always plenty fools online who just will not ignore the troll anyway. Remember that trolls do not only do it for themselves, but also for their audience.

You can ignore clueless flamers and the kooks along with the trolls, so that should make it easy even for those of you who don't know the difference. That is unless you enjoy the exchange yourself ofcourse. Remember that you can always walk out.

Griefers you simply have to deal with non-verbally (kick/ban), or if you cannot, it's better to just leave the game yourself, because the shrill and impotent cries of angry gamers only add to the fun.

Last but not least, genuine harassment that isn't limited to comedic online posts or spoiling online games, is what you take to the authorities, like your teacher, your parents or maybe even to the police.

Now you know. Internet 101 kids.
While I agree with the dynamics you've laid out, I disagree with the approach. If someone trolls you, you feed them and the ending is hilarious, everyone wins (assuming you have a tough enough ego to take it in stride). If a genuine idiot spouts hate-speech without opposition, he wins in his own head, even if he's just being ignored. Telling one from the other on the internet is generally impossible until well into an argument, as their stated views are identical. It's easy to emulate the views and mannerisms of an idiot.

Of course, I'm talking primarily about forums and social media (as was Ms. Guthrie), you seem to be talking primarily about online games... in which case you'd be right. The correct approach to trolling/hate speech really does depend on the medium... but online games involving random strangers are something I left behind 10+ years ago when the mechanics and people involved gained more... universal appeal. My niche died. Oh well.
I talk about both games and forums and everything that frequently gets mislabeled as trolling too.

It all boils down to this very simple rule and this is for the benefit of many posters here:
If you're not having fun and you're not sharing any useful or desired information either, then you're using online forums, games, the usenet, etc. ALL WRONG.

That means that any online discussion or argument or flamewar is utter foolishness, unless you really want to argue and you're enjoying yourself while doing it, because you will gain nothing else.
It also means you can feed the troll as you prefer, but most people who reply, just get annoyed or angry and as such they really shouldn't feed the troll (or the flamer or the kook for that matter), which is not the same thing as pointing out a troll to a newbie (a potentially useful exchange of information or advice).
 

waj9876

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Just do what I do when I'm forced to interact with an Internet troll.

Be as condescending as possible and treat them like they really are as stupid as they act.
 

Something Amyss

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Phasmal said:
Yeah, this, since when did ignoring this stuff make it go away?
I don't know. I struggle to think of a case in my life. And I'm still waiting for the magic example.

I've heard the `trolls will get bored` line a million times, but it's forgetting you're often dealing with a new troll every time. They haven't had time to `get bored`.
Not to mention they don't go away so much as switch their target. In a perfect world, maybe nobody would be bothered, but they'll keep going until they get their validation. And being callous merely facilitates them.

Hell, I got the same sort of advice from people regarding bullies. "just ignore them." Except they simply elevated to try and get a rise out of me until I nearly got killed. Good call, guys!

And now we have aggressive "trolling," people who will dig up your personal info and harass or threaten you at home. Yay ignoring problems!

Maybe in a few years every troll will have gotten bored of freaking out at the sound of my voice or a team-member refers to me as `she`, but until then, my finger hovers over the block/mute button. (Incidentally I had my first voice troll-free game of DOTA 2 the other day, a surreal but pleasant experience- I even got commended).
There's going to need to be a larger change in gaming before that is a reality, but it'd be nice. However, even if we as a culture "outgrow" the notion that it's okay to harass girls, they're likely going to go after someone else because we have a very "libertarian" attitude in gaming.
 

BathorysGraveland2

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Depends on who you're dealing with. A proper troll? The best weapon is, indeed, to ignore them. Many years ago, when I got caught up in trolling, the thing I hated most was when someone would either block me or not respond, since there is no fun in that. With proper trolling, any kind of reply you give them is playing into their hands. So ignoring them really is the best weapon.

Now if we're talking legitimate harassment and bullying (which is beyond mere trolling or griefing) then yes, something needs to be done about that since those people are predators. They aren't looking for a cheap laugh at someone's expense, but for more malicious reasons. Calling these people out seems more wise than doing so to a troll or griefer. I doubt much sense would get through at any rate, though. Unless there are moderators or police who can trace the guy to their country, not much can be done about on-line bullying.
 

Vegosiux

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I didn't get the memo, when did the expressions "trolling" and "harassing/bullying female gamers" become interchangeable?

When I say "trolling" and mean

"sowing discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Am I actually talking about the same thing all these treads about "trolling" seem to be about? Can we get some clarity here, the issues seem all muddied and confused.
 

DementedSheep

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Vegosiux said:
I didn't get the memo, when did the expressions "trolling" and "harassing/bullying female gamers" become interchangeable?

When I say "trolling" and mean

"sowing discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Am I actually talking about the same thing all these treads about "trolling" seem to be about? Can we get some clarity here, the issues seem all muddied and confused.
I don't know. "Troll" get thrown around a lot, it seems to just mean asshole these days.

Thing is people say "feeding the trolls will make them worse". Yeah when it's actually trolling and getting everyone upset and yelling at them is the point but a lot of the harassment isn't "trolling" it's just plain old harassment and bigotry. In many of the incidents on-line when I've had or seen that and other people have called them out on it they realise they're not just saying what everyone else is afraid to say or being "funny" and they shut up. Had that with some white supremacist asshole screaming over map chat a few days ago in one of my games.

Personal experience time! Maybe its the games I play but I don't find harassment that much of an issue in online games even when using a mic. I don't play online shooters much any-more and when I did I didn't have mic so maybe that's why but I haven't had much issues with harassment in last few years. I hope girls aren't getting intimidated into hiding because of the horror stories.
 

Eve Charm

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Eh sure, call out all the trolls you want. People love getting on stage to "Call out the trolls" but the hilarious thing is, they don't want the trolls to go away. Most of the time the ones on the Soapbox are as bitter and condescending and all around jerks if not more so then the trolls, they just use bigger words and sentences and have alternate motives to push off of it.

Like the "War on culture" it's a war fought by 5% of gamers while the other 95% either don't know or just laugh at how dumb the show is. The trolls are basically fuel for the soapboxer's fire. So sure they'll love to call them out, but man if they went away, The Soapboxers would never get their "real" opinions heard or even noticed at all.
 

josemlopes

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I'm yet to see anyone actually be protected by ignoring a troll. "Don't feed the trolls" is just the sort of specious reasoning employed by people who would rather do nothing.
The only thing trolls want out of you is a reaction, when you give them the reaction they want more out of it, simple as that.

If someone creates a trolling thread and no one comments it will be gone in less then a day, if anyone falls for it (even if its to call the poster a troll) then you will see it for the rest of the week and probably have some more threads talking about it.

And there is no point on "calling out" a troll, do you think he will be forever branded as a troll? He can just create a new account and bam, new troll to keep on flaming the forums. They even like when they are called trolls since it gives them a clear notion that they are pushing your buttons.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
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Dec 11, 2012
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josemlopes said:
They even like when they are called trolls since it gives them a clear notion that they are pushing your buttons.
Not only that, but on THIS forum you're not allowed to "call out" trolls. You get warnings for that.

Which means, often, everyone responding to and feeding the troll will get warnings, and the troll doesn't. So the troll wins.